Senate OKs tax bill as Trump, GOP near big legislative win

[bcking 3,157]

On 12/2/2017 at 11:35 AM, Bill & Katya said:

You may need to wait seven more years.  If the economy increases more than what it is already doing after this the Dems May face a tough time of their own.  As to fiscal responsibility, those in congress need to start looking at spending and reducing the size of the government first.

How do you reconcile the evaluations from several economists predicting that the tax bill will INCREASE our debt by billions?

 

Only time will tell I guess.

 

At the very least though we need to call a spade a spade. The tax bill supports upper middle and upper class income brackets. The poor lose out. Trump and his family personally benefit. Arguing any of those points is just lying. It's simple math.

[bcking 3,157]

21 hours ago, jg121783 said:

 

You are naive if you don't see that both parties place the wealthy above everyone else. This is not exclusive to republicans.

 

So I guess Trump must think all of his supporters and fans are naive.

 

He has certainly been campaigning for the tax bill by claiming it is going to help lower and middle class. He repeatedly says how much it will hurt him personally, when all of the numbers and calculations prove it will not.

 

How naive do you think Trump thinks his supporters are? At this point he probably realizes he could sell them snake oil.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

On 12/2/2017 at 7:55 AM, Steeleballz said:

 

   What was the other win? The Christmas card?

Two Turkeys were pardoned, good warmup for pardoning friends and family.

[Dashinka 24,502]

4 minutes ago, bcking said:

How do you reconcile the evaluations from several economists predicting that the tax bill will INCREASE our debt by billions?

 

Only time will tell I guess.

 

At the very least though we need to call a spade a spade. The tax bill supports upper middle and upper class income brackets. The poor lose out. Trump and his family personally benefit. Arguing any of those points is just lying. It's simple math.

I don't discount those, and as I have said, the federal spending needs to be cut, but every time that is floated we get all the handwringing that this cannot be done.  The federal deficit is a direct result of an oversized bloated government complex and maybe someday this will change.

 

I often wonder how you define the "poor" in this context?  Are these the folks that are able to gain hidden welfare benefits via the IRS?  I know I am squarely in the middle class (not the upper middle class which is a category I thing the MDL created), and I will see some benefit.  The thing that I think is most important though is the corporate tax cut, we need to even the field for the businesses (large and small corporations) that drive the economy.  Remember, government does not make money (economically), they only confiscate it.

[yuna628 9,676]

12 hours ago, Póg mo said:

Okay I'll bite, if someone living in New York City earned $32k, is that person wealthy or poor going by New York City standards? How much of a house would that person realistically afford? I'd suspect not much of one at all, if at all. So the point I am trying to make is that comparing the income of someone in earning $32k to to people in rest of the world earning a similar income is completely stupid end of story. 

$32k won't get you much in many states... including my own.

10 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I don't discount those, and as I have said, the federal spending needs to be cut, but every time that is floated we get all the handwringing that this cannot be done.  The federal deficit is a direct result of an oversized bloated government complex and maybe someday this will change.

 

I often wonder how you define the "poor" in this context?  Are these the folks that are able to gain hidden welfare benefits via the IRS?  I know I am squarely in the middle class (not the upper middle class which is a category I thing the MDL created), and I will see some benefit.  The thing that I think is most important though is the corporate tax cut, we need to even the field for the businesses (large and small corporations) that drive the economy.  Remember, government does not make money (economically), they only confiscate it.

I don't believe that this plan will benefit my husband and me significantly in any way, and we are certainly on the lower end of middle class. My family in the middle class, will be hit, and I don't see how that is a good thing. But as I said, the house bill shows us some savings..and the senate bill is a laughable joke of virtually no change so stop patting themselves on the back like they came up with something good.

 

Is there any evidence that cutting corporate taxes causes big corporations to reinvest that money in their workers - by giving them higher wages or benefits, for instance? Small businesses are also hurting in other ways than just taxes too.

[bcking 3,157]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

I don't discount those, and as I have said, the federal spending needs to be cut, but every time that is floated we get all the handwringing that this cannot be done.  The federal deficit is a direct result of an oversized bloated government complex and maybe someday this will change.

 

I often wonder how you define the "poor" in this context?  Are these the folks that are able to gain hidden welfare benefits via the IRS?  I know I am squarely in the middle class (not the upper middle class which is a category I thing the MDL created), and I will see some benefit.  The thing that I think is most important though is the corporate tax cut, we need to even the field for the businesses (large and small corporations) that drive the economy.  Remember, government does not make money (economically), they only confiscate it.

Federal spending needs to be optimized, I'm not really sure I can say whether in the end the absolute spending needs to go up or down. It first just needs to go to the right places. There is so much waste, but also so much need, that it is too difficult to tell in my opinion. Lots of spending  need to be cut, but then we are in desperate need of spending in areas that get ignored. What thing is for sure though - The only way this tax plan will NOT increase the federal deficit is if we have a major boost in our economy from it, and I just don't see that happening. It's a big "if".

 

I didn't mean to use "upper middle class" to refer to a social group, I was just thinking in my head in terms of "income brackets". Socially though I do think the 3-tier system is obsolete. The level of income inequality has become so staggeringly wide, you can't fit people into just lower/middle/upper. Someone who makes 100,000 dollars a year is very different from someone who makes close to 1 million dollars a year. That person making 1 million dollars a year is also very different from someone making 10 million a year, and even that person is WIDELY different from someone who brings in closer to 100 million. When do they become "upper class"? 1 million a year is surely not "middle class", but they are also no longer in the "upper class" either. 

 

As for how you define poor, it is difficult because I agree with the discussion that was had here regarding cost of living. Having lived in Manhattan, and now in Houston I can tell you what makes you "poor" is very different in these two places. I usually think in terms of "disposable" income, after what I consider to be "standards of living" (Shelter, Food, Healthcare). I see those things as a right for every human being (some my disagree). I also have to assume that someone isn't spending "outside their means" on their standard of living (obviously someone could put far too much money into their home and then have very little disposable income, which would make classifying them by my system harder).

 

Generally though, if someone has essentially no disposable income, and is constantly trying to figure out how to just pay for their "standards of living", I would consider them poor no matter where they are. Of course if they are overspending on their housing, or are leasing a car that is far outside what they can afford, then maybe they are just mismanaging their money. But I'm just thinking generally. 

 

Someone who is middle class doesn't necessarily have to think about finances on a day to day basis. You can buy things in the store on a whim without having to balance the checkbook. However, when making large purchases you have to see how it fits in with your overall spending (a car, a large holiday etc...). Someone who is upper class is on the extreme end of that spectrum, but it gets a bit more muddied. This is just my system of thinking though, and no system is perfect.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

3 hours ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

Two Turkeys were pardoned, good warmup for pardoning friends and family.

just setting the stage for obama.......

[Boiler 45,519]

3 hours ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

Two Turkeys were pardoned, good warmup for pardoning friends and family.

What about Hillary?

[Steeleballz 7,550]

9 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

just setting the stage for obama.......

 

    Setting the stage means preparing for an event that is about to take place. In what way do you think a future pardoning pertains to Obama? 

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

16 minutes ago, Boiler said:

What about Hillary?

She has not been pardoned or even locked up

[Boiler 45,519]

14 minutes ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

She has not been pardoned or even locked up

Yet

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

1 minute ago, Boiler said:

Yet

I am glad so many have rich lives and hold so deeply to those dreams 

[TBoneTX 45,292]

14 hours ago, bcking said:

Someone who is middle class doesn't necessarily have to think about finances on a day to day basis. You can buy things in the store on a whim without having to balance the checkbook. However, when making large purchases you have to see how it fits in with your overall spending (a car, a large holiday etc...). Someone who is upper class is on the extreme end of that spectrum, but it gets a bit more muddied.

I once heard someone observe, "Everyone is broke at their own level."

Excepting those of earlier generations who grew up desperately poor and socked every spare penny into savings over their lives, this might be rather accurate.

[jayjayj 571]

18 hours ago, bcking said:

How do you reconcile the evaluations from several economists predicting that the tax bill will INCREASE our debt by billions?

 

Only time will tell I guess.

 

At the very least though we need to call a spade a spade. The tax bill supports upper middle and upper class income brackets. The poor lose out. Trump and his family personally benefit. Arguing any of those points is just lying. It's simple math.

 

This tax bill benefits the poor and middle class, as well as high net worth individuals and corporations.  It benefits everyone across the board.  Attempting to argue that it doesn't is dishonest, but you are correct, it is simple math.

[jayjayj 571]

I guess none of the misleading posts in this thread are going to be corrected.  

 

When the midterms come around next year, every voter will remember that not a single Democrat voted to decrease their tax bill - not one.

 

I also find it hilarious that some of our lefty friends on here are now claiming to care about the national debt.  That is hysterically ironic.