Open Border Tragedies Caused by Visa Lottery System

[Dashinka 24,798]

10 hours ago, Steeleballz said:

  You should be making the point to Bill. He's the one who keeps asking the question.

Yes, I am an idiot as some have suggested.  By the way, this tread only touched on the DV category in passing as it went through discussions of medicine and racial/identity politics.  Today the DV category is a legal way to immigrate and I know several people that have taken that route, at one point prior to our K1 application we investigated this option,  but decided against it.  All of this does not mean it is a good program or in the case of the title of the category Diverse especially when every few years a committee of government types review it and decide to change the countries that are now able to use it.  This is an utterly absurd way to run immigration.  I know, several will say I just don’t understand the category, whatever, I just don’t care.

[Dianalorena 1,153]

Oh boy.

 

 I don't understand the Diversity lottery all that well, in my experience the U.S feels pretty diverse ( it seems concentrated in certain areas though?I could be wrong)  and I don't know why they absolutely require the lottery.. Having said that, I'm the foreign spouse moving to the U.S, and of course I'm all up for legal immigration and diversity. I guess my heart is conflicted and divided on this topic. 

Although, It seems a bit extreme to shut down a program instead of tweaking it, due to some bad apples. 

 

If you look close enough, you can find statistics in just about anything, that fits a specific agenda.  ''tragedies caused by elephants accidentally sitting on people'' ''tragedies caused by collapsable stairs'' ''tragedies caused by those evil, inflatable weird dancing anthropomorphic things outside card dealerships'' As much as I hate those air monsters, I don't think they should stop using them even if one tries to murder me. (Please don't let them get to me) 

 

 

 

[N-o-l-a 7,168]

8 minutes ago, Dianalorena said:

in my experience the U.S feels pretty diverse ( it seems concentrated in certain areas though?I could be wrong) 

 

 

Depends on your definition of diversity I suppose.  Do you think white people can exist as a diverse group?  Is an area diverse if it has a variety of immigrants from different Central and South American countries?

 

For myself, I like the "diversity" of where I live in that it being a primarily Scandinavian community with some Polish admixture that it produces a unique culture on to itself.   

[Dianalorena 1,153]

2 minutes ago, N-o-l-a said:

 

Depends on your definition of diversity I suppose.  Do you think white people can exist as a diverse group?  Is an area diverse if it has a variety of immigrants from different Central and South American countries?

 

For myself, I like the "diversity" of where I live in that it being a primarily Scandinavian community with some Polish admixture that it produces a unique culture on to itself.   

It's a good question. I didn't grow up thinking there should be a division between ''white'' and ''other ethnicities'' Even though I grew up in a bubble constituted of mostly Mexicans and wasn't exposed to a lot of diversity myself. I've always been a romantic, that doesn't see skin color or country of origin. 

Personally, I think Scandinavian and Polish is diverse, I don't think a community absolutely needs people from specific countries. I never knew that the lack of certain ethnicities in a country would or could be considered racist or as lacking diversity, I see it all the time when shows/movies are criticized for not having enough people of color.  White privilege is a foreign concept to me, still.

 

 

[Steeleballz 7,550]

41 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Yes, I am an idiot as some have suggested.  By the way, this tread only touched on the DV category in passing as it went through discussions of medicine and racial/identity politics.  Today the DV category is a legal way to immigrate and I know several people that have taken that route, at one point prior to our K1 application we investigated this option,  but decided against it.  All of this does not mean it is a good program or in the case of the title of the category Diverse especially when every few years a committee of government types review it and decide to change the countries that are now able to use it.  This is an utterly absurd way to run immigration.  I know, several will say I just don’t understand the category, whatever, I just don’t care.

 

     Come on. No one suggested anything like that.

      

      Whether or not you agree with the program, for the last ~20 years, the diversity visa has worked as it was intended to work. Any country that has had 50000 or more immigrants in the last 5 years is ineligible.  Once a country falls below that threshold , it's citizens are eligible again.

 

      There are many problems with our current immigration system, and we could make a list of many, many areas that need to be fixed, but the DV is not really something that would be high on my list. 

 

      

 

     

[Ebunoluwa 6,136]

I agree. It's diverse and fair and it works. Not perfect but what is.

We have real immigration problems to solve but those who want to half immigration numbers 

will use anything to do so.

[Boiler 46,116]

Many of us do not see colour.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

23 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Many of us do not see colour.

 

      I believe the condition is called achromatopsia. I recommend you take extra caution at traffic lights. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Steeleballz

[Pennycat 880]

2 hours ago, Dianalorena said:

Oh boy.

 

 I don't understand the Diversity lottery all that well, in my experience the U.S feels pretty diverse ( it seems concentrated in certain areas though?I could be wrong)  and I don't know why they absolutely require the lottery.. Having said that, I'm the foreign spouse moving to the U.S, and of course I'm all up for legal immigration and diversity. I guess my heart is conflicted and divided on this topic. 

Although, It seems a bit extreme to shut down a program instead of tweaking it, due to some bad apples. 

 

If you look close enough, you can find statistics in just about anything, that fits a specific agenda.  ''tragedies caused by elephants accidentally sitting on people'' ''tragedies caused by collapsable stairs'' ''tragedies caused by those evil, inflatable weird dancing anthropomorphic things outside card dealerships'' As much as I hate those air monsters, I don't think they should stop using them even if one tries to murder me. (Please don't let them get to me) 

 

 

 

Again, it's not to make the US more diverse. It is to add some diversity to the overall annual immigrant population. Those are two vastly different things. It's not like some private school looking for token minorities or whatever people seem to be picturing. 

 

Also, it is diversity by nationality not ethnicity, which are also different things. It's basically a diplomatic tool, a goodwill gesture. For the low "price" of 50k immigrants (who have to meet some educational and employment standards), we get some pretty pro-USA folks in the form of these immigrants' friends and family etc. Needed or not good idea or not, is not my interest in this topic. But that's the gist of it.

[Dianalorena 1,153]

1 minute ago, CatherineA said:

Again, it's not to make the US more diverse. It is to add some diversity to the overall annual immigrant population. Those are two vastly different things. It's not like some private school looking for token minorities or whatever people seem to be picturing. 

 

Also, it is diversity by nationality not ethnicity, which are also different things. It's basically a diplomatic tool, a goodwill gesture. For the low "price" of 50k immigrants (who have to meet some educational and employment standards), we get some pretty pro-USA folks in the form of these immigrants' friends and family etc. Needed or not good idea or not, is not my interest in this topic. But that's the gist of it.

As stated in my previous post, I don't really know much about it  I respect your point of view, but to me, it doesn't feel like two vastly different things. It is stopping people from certain counties that already have big populations in the U.S (from applying to the lottery I mean) and giving other countries the opportunity so you'll have more people of certain places to add variety, at least that's what I understand. 

I don't see how any country would need to have people from certain countries because there's not a lot of them, instead of looking for certain skilled workers. I know it doesn't have to do with color/race specifically,  but how is it different to a private school looking for certain countries to admit over others?  In order to let some people in, you have to let others out: many countries can't participate in the lottery. 

A lot of us waiting (family-based) continue to wait, in what seems like an already saturated immigration system. (I know the lottery system doesn't directly jeopardize our process, but it adds to the already incendiary topic of immigration)

I'm definitely not against people moving legally to the U.S as also stated in my post, I even said I don't think it should be shut down completely. I just asked why this one is required precisely, and I do feel any program has room for improvement. 

 

 

[Pennycat 880]

40 minutes ago, Dianalorena said:

As stated in my previous post, I don't really know much about it  I respect your point of view, but to me, it doesn't feel like two vastly different things. It is stopping people from certain counties that already have big populations in the U.S (from applying to the lottery I mean) and giving other countries the opportunity so you'll have more people of certain places to add variety, at least that's what I understand. 

I don't see how any country would need to have people from certain countries because there's not a lot of them, instead of looking for certain skilled workers. I know it doesn't have to do with color/race specifically,  but how is it different to a private school looking for certain countries to admit over others?  In order to let some people in, you have to let others out: many countries can't participate in the lottery. 

A lot of us waiting (family-based) continue to wait, in what seems like an already saturated immigration system. (I know the lottery system doesn't directly jeopardize our process, but it adds to the already incendiary topic of immigration)

I'm definitely not against people moving legally to the U.S as also stated in my post, I even said I don't think it should be shut down completely. I just asked why this one is required precisely, and I do feel any program has room for improvement. 

 

 

That's where you and everyone else keeps getting confused. It has nothing to do with the makeup of the US population.  It has to do with the makeup of the annual immigrant population. Those are what are the vastly different things. 325 million people vs 1 million people, just for starts. 

 

And I said, it is my understanding that the program is a sort of soft diplomacy/goodwill sort of thing. It's not about what the US needs in its population, it's about its relations with other counties, and a very easy/cheap way to score a positive, or even balance out a negative perception (like "the US doesn't like people from my country because it prefers people from my enemy neighbor's country you can tell because they let in thousands of them with work and family visas and no one from mine"). I'm not arguing the merits of it in that regard I'm just trying to get people (specifically the person who asked) to understand what the term "diversity" means in this context.

Edited November 19, 2017 by CatherineA

[Boiler 46,116]

37 minutes ago, CatherineA said:

That's where you and everyone else keeps getting confused. It has nothing to do with the makeup of the US population.  It has to do with the makeup of the annual immigrant population. Those are what are the vastly different things. 325 million people vs 1 million people, just for starts. 

 

And I said, it is my understanding that the program is a sort of soft diplomacy/goodwill sort of thing. It's not about what the US needs in its population, it's about its relations with other counties, and a very easy/cheap way to score a positive, or even balance out a negative perception (like "the US doesn't like people from my country because it prefers people from my enemy neighbor's country you can tell because they let in thousands of them with work and family visas and no one from mine"). I'm not arguing the merits of it in that regard I'm just trying to get people (specifically the person who asked) to understand what the term "diversity" means in this context.

It was a sop to Irish American politicians, to bring in more Irish.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

35 minutes ago, Boiler said:

It was a sop to Irish American politicians, to bring in more Irish.

  

     Why it originally came to be is neither here nor there. Ireland is currently treated the same as any other country in regards to the DV.

[Pennycat 880]

51 minutes ago, Boiler said:

It was a sop to Irish American politicians, to bring in more Irish.

Was being the operative word and tense. Is not now.

[Dianalorena 1,153]

1 hour ago, CatherineA said:

That's where you and everyone else keeps getting confused. It has nothing to do with the makeup of the US population.  It has to do with the makeup of the annual immigrant population. Those are what are the vastly different things. 325 million people vs 1 million people, just for starts. 

 

And I said, it is my understanding that the program is a sort of soft diplomacy/goodwill sort of thing. It's not about what the US needs in its population, it's about its relations with other counties, and a very easy/cheap way to score a positive, or even balance out a negative perception (like "the US doesn't like people from my country because it prefers people from my enemy neighbor's country you can tell because they let in thousands of them with work and family visas and no one from mine"). I'm not arguing the merits of it in that regard I'm just trying to get people (specifically the person who asked) to understand what the term "diversity" means in this context.

I think that, independently of what you're saying (I don't think you're wrong, but we're both entitled to our opinions and to perceive this in different ways) You also have to look at the context. 

Although it may have been a ''diplomacy/goodwill'' sort of thing as you mention, things do change, a country's requirements and how people see immigration as a whole, shifts from time to time. I don't even think it's all due to the current administration, but it has become a global issue where countries just don't seem to know how to please all people without facing scrutiny or facing trouble. 

 

The relationship between the United States and the countries that they are so diplomatically inviting, is also changing. It is understandable that people (U.S citizens and foreigners) will continue to politicize situations like what happened in New York, which rekindled the fire in this debate. There's significantly more pressure to ''do something'' about the lottery right now. Even if the people coming in are not ''taking jobs away from citizens'' (I don't subscribe to that idea) the perception that they are a threat (even if they're not) feeds people's fears. Fear is ultimately one of the main reasons why the U.S has the president they currently have, fear that immigrants are somewhat preferred or have certain benefits, over citizens. In this case, I can see why the idea of ending it can be so appealing to many people, whether I support it or not.