'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas

[charmander 692]

2 hours ago, Sonea said:

I meant for Australia.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

lots of numbers available. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

5 hours ago, charmander said:

Switzerland?

Doesn't Switzerland require citizens to own guns?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

5 hours ago, bcking said:

Are you serious?

 

Of course you have to pick and choose what countries. You have to find relevant similar examples to compare to otherwise you are, excuse the overused phrase, comparing "apples to oranges". Of course we are better than Sudan in terms of gun homicide rates. It is more important to ask how we are doing against other economically advanced, stable countries.

 

That is a no brainer. It is like trying to compare rates of homelessness, or rates of hunger, or rates of poverty. It wouldn't make sense to compare us to extremely poor countries. I mean you could, but you wouldn't get much information out of it and it would be rather pointless. 

 

It's all about eliminating as many possible "confounders" as possible. If you compare us to a country that is at war, for example, obviously their rate will be high. But the cause is obvious. In order to eliminate confounders you look for the most similar places possible. It's applying fairly basic concepts in statistics.

I challenge you, without looking it up after you read my post, to explain the difference between 1st world and 2nd world, and list 3 countries in each category. 

 

Be honest, there is no shame in trying.

[Boiler 45,852]

Anything happen whilst I was away of note?

[Sonea 138]

48 minutes ago, ready4ONE said:

Because the State on the chart with the highest number of gun owning household is also the highest in gun deaths? And I didn't even know Wyoming had and hoods! I am guessing that Chicago must also be in Wyoming, another alternative fact I didn't know.

If you want me to comment on that chart I can. Where there may be somewhat of a correlation, I don't think there is causation.

 

You mention Wyoming - Wyoming has by far the most suicides along with alaska and montana. (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm).  

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 hours ago, JimandChristy said:

Once again I only hear this being said to me by Conservative Republicans. It is this mentality that holds America back as a country and why some policies are still stuck in the 20th century. 

 

I could move back and I would have just as much freedom over in the UK than I would have here but since I am here my observation is there are some Americans who believe America does everything the best way. Thing is they are Americans who have never travelled or lived outside their own country and experienced other cultures.

I’ve lived in a few other countries, and I still choose America.  As do you.  So stop pretending like it’s so bad here.  It isn’t.  

It’s not perfect, but any means.  But there is a reason why it’s the NUMBER ONE MOST IMMIGRATED TO country in the world.  For the same reason you’re here.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

3 hours ago, CaliCat said:

 

There are several posts in this thread that disprove your statement. 

That would be incorrect.  His statement is accurate.  Don’t know why you might say what you said.  Posts in this thread prove nothing, remember?  Like mine, when you didn’t like what I said, and didn’t provide a link to “back it up”.  But I’ll go one step further than you did and actually disprove your statement with a simple graph:

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

1 hour ago, ready4ONE said:

Because the State on the chart with the highest number of gun owning household is also the highest in gun deaths? And I didn't even know Wyoming had and hoods! I am guessing that Chicago must also be in Wyoming, another alternative fact I didn't know.

Let me break it down for you, to help you understand that difficult-to-comprehend chart.  

 

Wyoming had 585,501 people in 2016.  Illinois had 12.8 million.  That’s nearly 22 times the number of people in Illinois than Wyoming. (2016 data)

 

Wyoming is a state with many legal gun owners (I’ll go out on a limb here and say the majority of them), who register their weapons (that’s how they know how many people per capita own guns).  And they had 113 gun deaths, but only 17 homicides.  (Doesn’t specify the cause of those 17 homicides; but let’s assume the worst, and all 17 were by guns in 2015.).  That means that 96 gun deaths were accidents, and 17 were homicides.

Illinois is a state with very few legal gun owners, but lots more people, so the per capita number is small.  And they had 1,220 gun deaths, with 863 homicides reported (2015 data).  

 

In a state with 22 TIMES the number of people in WY, you have a homicide rate of 50 TIMES that of WY.  (863/17=50.7%)

 

So while that misleading chart makes it seem like WY has a much more serious murder problem than Illinois, everyone in the US with the ability to read knows that ain’t so.

 

The only alternative fact in your post is what you chose to believe from that graph Charmander posted. 

 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

 

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by IDWAF

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

43 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Anything happen whilst I was away of note?

Wyoming gained more ‘Hoods, and is now way past Illinois in gun deaths.  Chicago should now be a MUCH safer place to live...

[natty bumppo 297]

3 hours ago, charmander said:

 

Would % of households work? Can’t find per country but here’s per state:

 

Interesting chart.

Top 5 states for % of ownership and deaths (upper right) with population rankings:

Wyoming .... 50

Alaska ........ 48

Montana .... 45

Arkansas ... 33

Alabama .... 24

 

All of these states are also very hunting friendly. Lots of out of state people enter carrying firearms.

 

Does the data represented on the Y-Axis represent ONLY deaths from households (residents) shown on the X-Axis?

Or does the data on the Y-Axis include ALL deaths within the state borders ... household plus visitors? 

Does the data also include, Code Y35.0 - Legal intervention involving firearm discharge? Sources referencing CDC will include LEO actions. So if the police terminate a bad guy ... it's included in the chart. 

 

States in the lower left of the chart ... most people who own guns in these states do not talk about ownership or have left due to the craziness of the gun laws.

I know quite a few people who vacated the three lower left New England states because they didn't want to become overnight criminals simply because of something they had legally owned for years.

The restrictive laws were a huge factor in their decision to leave the state. The other factor was the economy. Why stay when they could move to a firearm friendly state that has jobs and doesn't tax people to death.

That's what I did years ago ...

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by natty bumppo

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

4 minutes ago, natty bumppo said:

Interesting chart.

Top 5 states for % of ownership and deaths (upper right) with population rankings:

Wyoming .... 50

Alaska ........ 48

Montana .... 45

Arkansas ... 33

Alabama .... 24

 

All of these states are also very hunting friendly. Lots of out of state people enter carrying firearms.

 

Does the data represented on the Y-Axis represent ONLY deaths from households (residents) shown on the X-Axis?

Or does the data on the Y-Axis include ALL deaths within the state borders ... household plus visitors? 

Does the data also include, Code Y35.0 - Legal intervention involving firearm discharge? Sources referencing CDC will include LEO actions. So if the police terminate a bad guy ... it's included in the chart. 

 

States in the lower left of the chart ... most people who own guns in these states do not talk about ownership or have left due to the craziness of the gun laws.

I know quite a few people who vacated the three lower left New England states because they didn't want to become overnight criminals simply because of something they had legally owned for years.

The restrictive laws were a huge factor in their decision to leave the state. The other factor was the economy. Why stay when they could move to a firearm friendly state that has jobs and doesn't tax people to death.

That's what I did years ago ...

 

 

 

 

That chart comes from someone at mother jones.  DId you actually expect it to represent anything... accurate?  

[Boiler 45,852]

5 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

That chart comes from someone at mother jones.  DId you actually expect it to represent anything... accurate?  

Seems somewhat unlikely and did not some one comment that there was high suicide rates in those States?

 

Lies, damn lies etc

[natty bumppo 297]

3 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

That chart comes from someone at mother jones.  DId you actually expect it to represent anything... accurate?  

 

Short answer .... nope.

 

Just wanted to point out a few "questionable" charts features.

 

 

 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

3 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Seems somewhat unlikely and did not some one comment that there was high suicide rates in those States?

 

Lies, damn lies etc

Yes.  My post above shows that of the 113 gun deaths in WY, only 17 were homicides.  So the rest were accidents or suicides, most likely.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

3 minutes ago, natty bumppo said:

 

Short answer .... nope.

 

Just wanted to point out a few "questionable" charts features.

 

 

 

I know.  My question was mostly rhetorical.  That chart, and a certain post about it just prove confirmation bias is alive and well even In the MDL area.