'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas

[bcking 3,157]

4 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

Unfortunately, this has been proven again and again.  And there seems to be no way to stop it.  More gun laws or restrictions will NOT stop those with murderous intent, or even common criminals, from obtaining guns.  Whether thru a black market supplier or simply by stealing them, people who want guns but cannot buy their own WILL get them.

Please provide a source for how that has been "proven again and again"

 

Other countries' experience with gun control does not support that. Countries with stricter gun laws don't have the number of mass shootings that we experience. Not even close. Especially if you exclude the recent foreign "terror" attacks in Europe. 

 

So please what evidence proves that these mentally ill people will just "acquire guns illegally"?

Edited November 8, 2017 by bcking

[JimandChristy 1,689]

17 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

Unfortunately, this has been proven again and again.  And there seems to be no way to stop it.  More gun laws or restrictions will NOT stop those with murderous intent, or even common criminals, from obtaining guns.  Whether thru a black market supplier or simply by stealing them, people who want guns but cannot buy their own WILL get them.

 

I mentioned him owning guns prior to the domestic violence, but a couple of peeps came back and said it has been verified that he bought them after the crimes, and was able to do so due to a failure of him being entered into a database somewhere.  (I think that blame falls upon the Air Force, from what I have gathered.)

Hold on, but other first world countries have criminals or people who may have murderous intent, its not just unique to the USA you know. So tell me how is it their deaths by firearms are way significantly lower than the USA?

So saying "well criminals will always not obey the law and therefore find a way to get a gun" doesn't wash with me. Another strawman argument to justify the need to have this country swimming in guns.

 

Same with the mental health argument, another strawman to justify the vast number of guns because other first world countries have mentally ill people as well but you don't see people in those countries shooting up churches, nightclubs, cinemas, schools etc etc like they do over here. Why is that?

Edited November 8, 2017 by JimandChristy

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

14 minutes ago, bcking said:

Please provide a source for how that has been "proven again and again"

 

Other countries' experience with gun control does not support that. Countries with stricter gun laws don't have the number of mass shootings that we experience. Not even close. Especially if you exclude the recent foreign "terror" attacks in Europe. 

 

So please what evidence proves that these mentally ill people will just "acquire guns illegally"?

My “source” that it has been proven again and again is the fact that thousands of criminals kill people every year.  Said criminals cannot pass a background check, I would imagine.   Yet there are probably hundreds of thousands of illegal guns on the streets today.  And THAT’S why there are so many gun homicides in the US.

[JimandChristy 1,689]

2 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

My “source” that it has been proven again and again is the fact that thousands of criminals kill people every year.  Said criminals cannot pass a background check, I would imagine.   Yet there are probably hundreds of thousands of illegal guns on the streets today.  And THAT’S why there are so many gun homicides in the US.

But there are thousands of criminals in other first world countries, so why isn't the homicide rate by guns as high as the USA? You'll get there eventually.

Edited November 8, 2017 by JimandChristy

[CaliCat 3,957]

1 minute ago, IDWAF said:

My “source” that it has been proven again and again is the fact that thousands of criminals kill people every year.  Said criminals cannot pass a background check, I would imagine.   Yet there are probably hundreds of thousands of illegal guns on the streets today.  And THAT’S why there are so many gun homicides in the US.

 

That's not proof. That's an apocryphal story, and your opinion. Not the same thing.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

15 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

Unfortunately, this has been proven again and again.  And there seems to be no way to stop it.  More gun laws or restrictions will NOT stop those with murderous intent, or even common criminals, from obtaining guns.  Whether thru a black market supplier or simply by stealing them, people who want guns but cannot buy their own WILL get them.

 

I mentioned him owning guns prior to the domestic violence, but a couple of peeps came back and said it has been verified that he bought them after the crimes, and was able to do so due to a failure of him being entered into a database somewhere.  (I think that blame falls upon the Air Force, from what I have gathered.)

 

    Actually if I suddenly develop murderous intent, I don't have a black market supplier on my speed dial and I don't have a readily available source lined up who I would plan to steal a gun from. The best I could think of  is there is this one guy who sometimes leaves a loaded gun in his driveway but that would take some logistical work.

 

   It doesn't have to be easy for potential criminals to get a gun. We could make it so it's not.

[-Trinity- 513]

7 minutes ago, bcking said:

15 minutes ago, Beachlover said:

 

Not listed where?

 

As I said - Media was able to find out his "history" fairly quickly. It's not like it was hidden that deeply. A more thorough background check would have picked it up. I don't think it would have been very difficult.

 

The argument that people in a state of murderous mind would "acquire guns illegally" I think it is best to compare us to other countries. If that were true, places like Australia and the UK would still see mass shootings from people with murderous intent who acquired guns illegally. They haven't, which to me suggests that there is something unique about the US. The clear and obvious "unique" aspect is the ease with which we can acquire weapons. I haven't see anyone provide a logical argument for why we uniquely have more murderous people

The database of the Air Force, they failed to follow their own policies and  register his domestic violence conviction.

The problem with that ( media found out quickly and law enforcement not) is the bureaucracy. And I'm not sure, not a law expert and defenitly not the US law, but i can imagine that if something is not registered it basically doesn't "exist".

 

The UK and Australia have a different culture, I believe that this the "unique" difference. Switzerland has less stricter gun laws then any other European country, but they don't have mass shootings either. 

 

 

 

 

[bcking 3,157]

4 minutes ago, Beachlover said:

The database of the Air Force, they failed to follow their own policies and  register his domestic violence conviction.

The problem with that ( media found out quickly and law enforcement not) is the bureaucracy. And I'm not sure, not a law expert and defenitly not the US law, but i can imagine that if something is not registered it basically doesn't "exist".

 

The UK and Australia have a different culture, I believe that this the "unique" difference. Switzerland has less stricter gun laws then any other European country, but they don't have mass shootings either. 

 

 

 

 

UK and Australia were both faced with massive shootings, before their laws.

 

While yes we don't know what would have happened if they didn't pass stricter laws, we at least know they both had people capable of doing so. They both saw a significant drop after their restrictions.

 

Even if we do have a more violent culture in the US, I'd still support airing on the side of caution and creating stricter laws. Would it be 100% effective? Of course not. But literally anything would be better than what we have. 

 

The background check process for guns right now is clearly a joke. If the news can uncover more, it clearly doesn't work.

[bcking 3,157]

22 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

My “source” that it has been proven again and again is the fact that thousands of criminals kill people every year.  Said criminals cannot pass a background check, I would imagine.   Yet there are probably hundreds of thousands of illegal guns on the streets today.  And THAT’S why there are so many gun homicides in the US.

I see one point you are sort of getting at - These mass shootings are a "drop in the bucket" to our overall number of gun homicides.

 

Yes I agree with you on that. If we worked to solve just these mass shootings, we wouldn't make much of a dent in our gun homicide rate overall.

 

That being said - We are still an huge outlier for these mass shooting events and while they may be a "drop in the bucket", they are still innocent lives being lost. Other countries have mentally ill people and don't see mass shootings like we do. If it isn't stricter gun laws, we should be figuring out what else is different so we can emulate it.

 

EDIT: Also, though others have already said that, your little story isn't a "source" for anything being "proven over and over again".

 

You have not yet provided actually evidence to suggest that these people who commit mass shootings in the US would just "get guns anyway" if we had strict gun control laws.

Edited November 8, 2017 by bcking

[Boiler 45,872]

2 hours ago, Beachlover said:

I never know when you are being sarcastic or mean it. In this case I go with the last. 

 

But yeah they didn't. If half of what he has done and reported by media is true,  this guy should have never ever owned a weapon in his life ever again. This was a walking disaster, ready to happen.

Always wondered why they do not try enforcing existing laws first,  easier to introduce new ones and do nothing.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

1 hour ago, Boiler said:

Always wondered why they do not try enforcing existing laws first,  easier to introduce new ones and do nothing.

the Federal law is and has been since 1968: If you have a felony conviction, or a domestic violence protective order you cannot possess a firearm. I guess if you cannot possess one you should not be able to buy one.  Somehow the 1968 law was broken, I am all ears on how we can keep these arms out of the hands of felons and spouses or partners who intend to harm one.  What are your ideas?

[Ban Hammer 13,469]

an excellent example of our media not having a clue

https://townhall.com/notebook/bethbaumann/2017/11/08/usa-today-gets-schooled-on-guns-and-gun-modifications-n2406776

[Boiler 45,872]

23 minutes ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

the Federal law is and has been since 1968: If you have a felony conviction, or a domestic violence protective order you cannot possess a firearm. I guess if you cannot possess one you should not be able to buy one.  Somehow the 1968 law was broken, I am all ears on how we can keep these arms out of the hands of felons and spouses or partners who intend to harm one.  What are your ideas?

Enforce the law.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

1 minute ago, Boiler said:

Enforce the law.

sometimes state and local laws need to be updated to reflect the reality of how the world has changed since 1968. 

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

22 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

an excellent example of our media not having a clue

https://townhall.com/notebook/bethbaumann/2017/11/08/usa-today-gets-schooled-on-guns-and-gun-modifications-n2406776

Translation, only weapons lovers should be able to discuss updating gun laws.