Tomi Lahren’s attempt at a sexy and patriotic Halloween costume backfired, big time

[jayjayj 571]

19 minutes ago, bcking said:

The song is going to be played regardless of whether they stand or kneel. The song lasts the same length. The game will play regardless.

 

How does their kneeling impact "your time"? You will get the same football game viewing out of the experience. You can also similarly get the same opportunity to stand for the Anthem if you so choose. Them kneeling does absoutely nothing to your time, and it seems pretty overly sensitive for someone to suggest that players taking the knee for a 3 minute (or less) song somehow "ruins" the entire football watching experience. 

 

I agree with you on the reporting aspect. I don't watch football so I definitely don't watch the sports-related news but if I was a sports person I would prefer the "sports analysis" type news not to talk about it. The regular news can, since it is a political protest, but the "sports analysis" shows that happen pre/post game should just stick the game. I wasn't aware that they were dwelling on it that much, since I don't watch.

 

I also don't find it particularly disrespectful, though I would generally stand myself (can't remember the last time I was in a public place with the National Anthem playing...I've been in public with the Thai National Anthem and the UK National Anthem more recently, and stood for both). That being said, since someone else kneeling does not impact my actions during the song, I really wouldn't care. If they were jumping up and down screaming during the anthem I would have a problem. If they just want to take a knee, I don't lose anything from that.

Have you ever intentionally not stood for the national anthem?  You probably haven't and the reason you probably haven't is because you would consider it to be disrespectful and you wouldn't want to embarrass yourself - which is the point some are trying to make.  Otherwise, you wouldn't have used the word "generally".  You would have plainly stated that there were times in the past when you didn't bother to stand up.  Standing for the national anthem is a sign of respect toward those you have died defending our flag and our freedom.  A large demographic of our population finds any perceived disrespect toward our national anthem or our flag to be highly offensive.  

[bcking 3,157]

2 minutes ago, jayjayj said:

Have you ever intentionally not stood for the national anthem?  You probably haven't and the reason you probably haven't is because you would consider it to be disrespectful and you wouldn't want to embarrass yourself - which is the point some are trying to make.  Otherwise, you wouldn't have used the word "generally".  You would have plainly stated that there were times in the past when you didn't bother to stand up.  Standing for the national anthem is a sign of respect toward those you have died defending our flag and our freedom.  A large demographic of our population finds any perceived disrespect toward our national anthem or our flag to be highly offensive.  

Honestly I don't think I've ever stayed seated just because everyone around me stands and I don't want to feel awkward.

 

In Thailand I stood because my wife told me it was required even of foreigners to show respect. Not sure what they would have done if I didn't, but I didn't push the matter.

 

I said generally because I just can't remember. I'm guessing I've always stood but I've done so just because it was everyone else did. Honestly I don't think I've been anywhere with it playing in my adult life. I don't go to sports games and I can't think of any other scenario I recall it playing. As a kid I would have stood just to be like everyone else.

 

Honestly the national anthem was settled only about 100 years ago. It's a song from the War of 1812, which wasn't exactly us fighting for our "freedom". I don't care that much about the national anthem. 

 

Bottom line - if someone wants to kneel, it doesn't affect me. It doesn't hurt or affect you. The term "snowflake" gets tossed around on these forms and it seems quite fitting here. It seems a little overly sensitive to make such a big fuss about what someone else does during a song. 

[bcking 3,157]

38 minutes ago, jayjayj said:

I'm not going to take the word of the football players about their intent.  Their intent is clear to me and millions of other Americans, even if it doesn't appear clear to you.  Her intent also seems perfectly clear.  Since you say intent matters, then yeah, I guess we are good.

Sorry if I was confusing -

 

I don't think intent matters. I think you can be disrespectful and offensive when you INTEND to be, and you can be disrespectful and offensive when you DO NOT INTEND to be. Your intensions are important, but they don't define whether something is disrespectful or offensive.

 

So for either the football players or Tomi Lahren's outfit - I don't care what either intentions were. I find an american flag as clothing as more disrespectful to the symbols of our country than I do kneeling during the national anthem. I'm not really bothered that much by either one, but if I had to rank them I would put the flag clothing as worse. I also don't care that it is pervasive in our culture. That doesn't make it less disrespectful (It's also very tacky but that's another issue).

[jayjayj 571]

4 minutes ago, bcking said:

Honestly I don't think I've ever stayed seated just because everyone around me stands and I don't want to feel awkward.

 

In Thailand I stood because my wife told me it was required even of foreigners to show respect. Not sure what they would have done if I didn't, but I didn't push the matter.

 

I said generally because I just can't remember. I'm guessing I've always stood but I've done so just because it was everyone else did. Honestly I don't think I've been anywhere with it playing in my adult life. I don't go to sports games and I can't think of any other scenario I recall it playing. As a kid I would have stood just to be like everyone else.

 

Honestly the national anthem was settled only about 100 years ago. It's a song from the War of 1812, which wasn't exactly us fighting for our "freedom". I don't care that much about the national anthem. 

 

Bottom line - if someone wants to kneel, it doesn't affect me. It doesn't hurt or affect you. The term "snowflake" gets tossed around on these forms and it seems quite fitting here. It seems a little overly sensitive to make such a big fuss about what someone else does during a song. 

So you don't think the national anthem is meant to honor the soldiers dying today in foreign lands, for that flag and for your freedom?  It is just too old and meaningless, right?  They must be snowflakes.  Snowflakes who watched their buddies get blow apart by IED's.  Snowflakes who carried those caskets, draped in that flag, from the plane to their fellow soldier's loved ones.

 

It doesn't hurt or affect you, because you've never fought for your own freedom.  Others have done that for you.  Many of them are offended.  You shouldn't so easily dismiss how they feel about it.

[bcking 3,157]

Just now, jayjayj said:

So you don't think the national anthem is meant to honor the soldiers dying today in foreign lands, for that flag and for your freedom?  It is just too old and meaningless, right?  They must be snowflakes.  Snowflakes who watched their buddies get blow apart by IED's.  Snowflakes who carried those caskets, draped in that flag, from the plane to their fellow soldier's loved ones.

 

It doesn't hurt or affect you, because you've never fought for your own freedom.  Others have done that for you.  Many of them are offended.  You shouldn't so easily dismiss how they feel about it.

I've seen and heard that many of them aren't offended, and have publicly said so. I have three acquaintances who have a history of serving and none of them have cared much about this whole thing. 

 

A National Anthem is not specifically designed to honor current soldiers dying in foreign lands. They are songs that are meant to invoke patriotic feelings, show loyalty to the country, and highlight key historical events/attributes that a country may be proud of. Our national anthem is celebrating a historical victory, and the words aren't specifically honoring current active duty soldiers at all. There isn't anything that says that it is specifically about showing respect to soldiers. I've always seen it as much more broad than that. I've always never really found it as an effective anthem. I think there are better choices. The song is just silly, and the historical event is not our proudest hour in my opinion.

 

Also - you really don't think it's a big deal for people to wear the flag that those soldiers who died were draped in as bikinis, hats, halloween costumes? Somehow that isn't disrespectful? As you rightfully pointed out, that flag means something incredibly important to those active duty soldiers who fall, and the friends who cared for them. How can you tolerate people taking that flag and turning it into a halloween costume?

 

At the end of the day there are far more important things we can do to support the troops that fight in foreign lands. Standing for a song is symbolic, sure it's nice, but at the end of the day it doesn't actually do anything. I'd much rather support greater benefits for veterans, and greater support when they return from active duty to help them find jobs and reassimilate into civilian life. Tangible things that will actually mean something.

[jayjayj 571]

Just now, bcking said:

I've seen and heard that many of them aren't offended, and have publicly said so. I have three acquaintances who have a history of serving and none of them have cared much about this whole thing. 

 

A National Anthem is not specifically designed to honor current soldiers dying in foreign lands. They are songs that are meant to invoke patriotic feelings, show loyalty to the country, and highlight key historical events/attributes that a country may be proud of. Our national anthem is celebrating a historical victory, and the words aren't specifically honoring current active duty soldiers at all. There isn't anything that says that it is specifically about showing respect to soldiers. I've always seen it as much more broad than that. I've always never really found it as an effective anthem. I think there are better choices. The song is just silly, and the historical event is not our proudest hour in my opinion.

 

Also - you really don't think it's a big deal for people to wear the flag that those soldiers who died were draped in as bikinis, hats, halloween costumes? Somehow that isn't disrespectful? As you rightfully pointed out, that flag means something incredibly important to those active duty soldiers who fall, and the friends who cared for them. How can you tolerate people taking that flag and turning it into a halloween costume?

 

At the end of the day there are far more important things we can do to support the troops that fight in foreign lands. Standing for a song is symbolic, sure it's nice, but at the end of the day it doesn't actually do anything. I'd much rather support greater benefits for veterans, and greater support when they return from active duty to help them find jobs and reassimilate into civilian life. Tangible things that will actually mean something.

Bullcockey!!

 

Three acquaintances? lol  I guarantee your 3 acquaintances were never even remotely near any actual combat, if they even exist at all. 

 

You've heard or seen what, 10-20 veterans say they aren't horribly offended?  Why don't you go down to your local VFW branch and ask the veterans there if they are offended or not?  You should express your opinion of the national anthem to them and see what they have to say.  Go hang out at the Vietnam War Memorial and ask random folks what they think.  

 

It doesn't matter what the song means to you.  It matters what it means to people who are offended by people perceived to be disrespecting it.  You never served, so you will never understand, as evident by your posts.

 

 

[bcking 3,157]

25 minutes ago, jayjayj said:

Bullcockey!!

 

Three acquaintances? lol  I guarantee your 3 acquaintances were never even remotely near any actual combat, if they even exist at all. 

 

You've heard or seen what, 10-20 veterans say they aren't horribly offended?  Why don't you go down to your local VFW branch and ask the veterans there if they are offended or not?  You should express your opinion of the national anthem to them and see what they have to say.  Go hang out at the Vietnam War Memorial and ask random folks what they think.  

 

It doesn't matter what the song means to you.  It matters what it means to people who are offended by people perceived to be disrespecting it.  You never served, so you will never understand, as evident by your posts.

 

 

I have never served and I won't claim that I have. I have 2 friends from medical school who were are in the Navy. One was active duty for around 10 years prior to medical school as a helicopter pilot, and now works at a Naval Hospital. The other has, post-medical school, served as a flight surgeon in active duty. I can't speak to what specific experiences they have had during their service. The third is the brother of a neighbour, who I only listed because we happened to talk about this very topic over the weekend at a party while the World Series was playing. I'll honestly say I didn't ask him to describe his service. He only said he was a vet and that he didn't really care (I'm paraphrasing).

 

I'm sure it matters to a lot of people. I'm sorry it bothers them so much. However, part of what they fight for is to preserve the rights that our country gives to its citizens. They fight for this very freedom of expression. 

 

I also love how we have basically skipped past the hypocritical nature of your comment regarding "intent". You tried to point out that because it wasn't Tomi's "intention" to be disrespectful, that somehow she wasn't disrespectful.

 

It wasn't the footballs intention to be disrespectful to our active duty military. By the same rules you tried to apply to Tomi, they are therefore not being disrespectful to them. You excused this by saying you didn't care to listen to their opinion on what their intent was (which is rather silly considering the person doing the action knows better than anyone what their intent was). How does the same argument not apply to Tomi? What if I said I didn't care what she claimed her intention was?

Edited October 31, 2017 by bcking

[Ebunoluwa 6,136]

Selective condemnation, selective approval. It's all about someone's agenda apparently.
Wrap a sexy woman up in a flag costume and it's all ok but take a bow as a black man to advocate equality and the prez calls you a sob while these
same men who salivate at the woman in the flag turn like a peacock and scream along with the prez about disrespect.

Man oh man....America.....where real issues of oppression to part of it's citizens do not matter but women in flags do. Sickening, disappointing
and superficial.

[jayjayj 571]

12 hours ago, Ebunoluwa said:

Selective condemnation, selective approval. It's all about someone's agenda apparently.
Wrap a sexy woman up in a flag costume and it's all ok but take a bow as a black man to advocate equality and the prez calls you a sob while these
same men who salivate at the woman in the flag turn like a peacock and scream along with the prez about disrespect.

Man oh man....America.....where real issues of oppression to part of it's citizens do not matter but women in flags do. Sickening, disappointing
and superficial.

I agree.  If you are a liberal you can say or do anything you want.  If you are conservative, you are constantly attacked for your speech and/or actions.  The tide is turning though.  Two scoops for everyone!  

Edited November 1, 2017 by jayjayj

[bcking 3,157]

3 hours ago, jayjayj said:

I agree.  If you are a liberal you can say or do anything you want.  If you are conservative, you are constantly attacked for your speech and/or actions.  The tide is turning though.  Two scoops for everyone!  

The I ly person advocating unequal treatment here is you...

 

I've said pretty consistently I don't much care what the football players do OR what Tomi wears.

 

My point has been if you find kneeling for the anthem disrespectful, I'm at a lost for why you don't find American flag clothing as disrespectful. That flag drapes our fallen soldiers. That flag was standing after the onslaught described in our national anthem. That flag should be precious. It shouldn't be a joke. I can't see how you are fine with a sexy flag Halloween costume but people kneeling gets you so offended. It's selectively thin skin.

[jayjayj 571]

1 minute ago, bcking said:

The I ly person advocating unequal treatment here is you...

 

I've said pretty consistently I don't much care what the football players do OR what Tomi wears.

 

My point has been if you find kneeling for the anthem disrespectful, I'm at a lost for why you don't find American flag clothing as disrespectful. That flag drapes our fallen soldiers. That flag was standing after the onslaught described in our national anthem. That flag should be precious. It shouldn't be a joke. I can't see how you are fine with a sexy flag Halloween costume but people kneeling gets you so offended. It's selectively thin skin.

Two completely different actions, with completely different intents.  You know that and you just refuse to admit it.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

24 minutes ago, jayjayj said:

Two completely different actions, with completely different intents.  You know that and you just refuse to admit it.

What is Tomi's intent? 

[bcking 3,157]

31 minutes ago, jayjayj said:

Two completely different actions, with completely different intents.  You know that and you just refuse to admit it.

Please show us a quote or interview where a football player says their intention was to disrespect soldiers.

Edited November 1, 2017 by bcking

[Dashinka 24,794]

18 hours ago, bcking said:

I have never served and I won't claim that I have. I have 2 friends from medical school who were are in the Navy. One was active duty for around 10 years prior to medical school as a helicopter pilot, and now works at a Naval Hospital. The other has, post-medical school, served as a flight surgeon in active duty. I can't speak to what specific experiences they have had during their service. The third is the brother of a neighbour, who I only listed because we happened to talk about this very topic over the weekend at a party while the World Series was playing. I'll honestly say I didn't ask him to describe his service. He only said he was a vet and that he didn't really care (I'm paraphrasing).

 

I'm sure it matters to a lot of people. I'm sorry it bothers them so much. However, part of what they fight for is to preserve the rights that our country gives to its citizens. They fight for this very freedom of expression. 

 

I also love how we have basically skipped past the hypocritical nature of your comment regarding "intent". You tried to point out that because it wasn't Tomi's "intention" to be disrespectful, that somehow she wasn't disrespectful.

 

It wasn't the footballs intention to be disrespectful to our active duty military. By the same rules you tried to apply to Tomi, they are therefore not being disrespectful to them. You excused this by saying you didn't care to listen to their opinion on what their intent was (which is rather silly considering the person doing the action knows better than anyone what their intent was). How does the same argument not apply to Tomi? What if I said I didn't care what she claimed her intention was?

I am a little confused.  I thought the MDL has been telling us for years that even if one person is offended it matters?  Does that only apply to those positions held dear by the MDL?

[Dashinka 24,794]

47 minutes ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

What is Tomi's intent? 

Isn't that what is asked every time a visitor is attempting to enter the country?  Of course intent matters.