Any car mechanics in da house?

[archie07 0]

Update: Well, Advance Auto Parts took back the starter, tested it...and hubby said they couldn't get it to even move, so it's definitely bad. Thankfully, they exchanged it so I don't have the cost of the starter at least. Makes me a bit wary to get another from the same place where the "bad" one was bought tho, ya know? Hubby brought the new starter to the shop and they're supposed to get to it tomorrow. I still don't know what the damage is...almost afraid to know...lol. But I should have my van back by tomorrow at least so I'll let you all know what's going on then. Be nice to have it back, won't have to bum a ride from a co-worker. Not too bad cuz I just live about 2 miles from work but still...you know how it is.

Sharon. It sure as hell moved when you started your van, didn't it? It's not a dead starter which is what these guys see 99% of the time.....It makes no sense. If it doesn't even move, then how the hell did you start the van to begin with?

I'll just shut up now......

Me too, ive dealt with advanced auto parts. The van started and then wouldnt shut off. Sure sounds like a faulty ignition switch. Can't wait to hear this verdict.

[eric&gen 0]

You can not go wrong with a honda, toyota, nissan stay away from the American ####### lol. American cars leak oil.

[MichelleandCraig 1]

Heheheheh oh how soon they forget... Actually, you were gonna take a piccy one time when you were down there, get him to sign it for me, and send it to me. ...but that's ok if you don't love me anymore. :(

Yeeeeeeeehawwwwwww...just kiddin, girl...you know that! We're all busy...for crying out loud..I know it's nuts here 'bout now (finishing school, lookin' for work, blah blah BLAH!) Whenever you get a chance that would be cool... M.

[Sharon 1]

Update: Well, Advance Auto Parts took back the starter, tested it...and hubby said they couldn't get it to even move, so it's definitely bad. Thankfully, they exchanged it so I don't have the cost of the starter at least. Makes me a bit wary to get another from the same place where the "bad" one was bought tho, ya know? Hubby brought the new starter to the shop and they're supposed to get to it tomorrow. I still don't know what the damage is...almost afraid to know...lol. But I should have my van back by tomorrow at least so I'll let you all know what's going on then. Be nice to have it back, won't have to bum a ride from a co-worker. Not too bad cuz I just live about 2 miles from work but still...you know how it is.

Sharon. It sure as hell moved when you started your van, didn't it? It's not a dead starter which is what these guys see 99% of the time.....It makes no sense. If it doesn't even move, then how the hell did you start the van to begin with?

I'll just shut up now......

Me too, ive dealt with advanced auto parts. The van started and then wouldnt shut off. Sure sounds like a faulty ignition switch. Can't wait to hear this verdict.

Hey guys, I'm not saying you're wrong (tho I hope you are of course because it'll mean I paid $$ for nothing...lol), just replaying what I've been told. Hell, I said it before, I know absolutely nothing about cars and have to rely on others. And you're right Kaydee, that the starter sure as hell moverd when I started the van and WOULDN'T stop....lol). I was just relaying word for word what my husband saidwhen he got back from the auto parts store. Maybe he was meaning some "guage" on the tester didn't even move? I don't know.

Just please keep your fingers crossed for me, ok please?

I have 2 kids in college and an 11 year old who'll be needing braces in 2 or 3 months, not to mention I have to get new tires for my tired old van too. I can't afford to get even a new old vehicle at this time.

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Sharon

[Mags 112]

The starter uses a centrifical Bendix drive mechanism and does not remain engaged unless power is applied to the starter motor. The fact that it remains engaged says that power is still applied to the starter, even after she has released the ignition switch.

For that reason it is very unlikely it's the starter........If it is the starter, the only thing that could have broken would be the return spring within the Bendix drive....again very remote possibilty.

Probably too late but if it was my vehicle I'd be asking to see the starter they take out.........

Actually, it's a lot more common than you would think....

(10 years as an auto mechanic, and Ford Certified, Nissan Certified, and SAAB Certified)

Kaydee, I think she said she got the van used a couple of years ago...probably just went out on her.

Awww...bummer, Sharon...was hoping to read good news. Fingers crossed for you for SURE that it's a cheap fix (well as cheap as it's gonna be at the garage... ) Hope it is....

Why don't you have Cooter look at it for ya??? M. (...and where's my piccy????)

OMG! I forgot allllllll about those pics of Cooter's house that I promised you!

Cooter splits his time between his home here down the holler and the house they have in Tennessee, and he's in Tenn. at the moment. But Michelle....I PROMISE I will get to taking pics this coming weekend, ok? I'm so sorryyyyyyyyyyy....lol.

I hope you get your problem fixed but I agree with kaydee here. You said your car remained running with the keys removed. I could be wrong but it sure sounds like the ignition switch now. It's 75 dollars from ford and if you turn the key on, there is a hole under the switch in the column where you can insert a punch and the switch will slide out. Takes about 2 minutes to change.

That's not the ignition switch, that's the lock cylinder. The ignition switch is on the steering column, under the dash.

EDIT: oops. This is Larry, not Sian. Grrrr @ her for not logging out. lol

Edited April 25, 2007 by mags

[beameup 0]

you gotta bad starter solenoid...if its separate from the starter drive...cheap and easy to replace. If its part of the starter drive, probably cheaper to buy a rebuilt starter. After all, its a FORD and thats the WAY IT IS.

When the solenoid engages the starter gear (Bendix) into the flywheel (ring gear) all the current comes directly to the starter motor from the battery through the solenoid. If the solenoid is bad it can get stuck and will not disengage from the flywheel even when the car starts. Similarly, if the solenoid is bad sometimes it will NOT even engage the flywheel.

All parts should be replaced at the same time: Starter, Solenoid & Relay.

[Sharon 1]

Actually, it's a lot more common than you would think....

(10 years as an auto mechanic, and Ford Certified, Nissan Certified, and SAAB Certified)

So Larry....are you saying that our mechanic could very well be right and that it is indeed our starter is bad?

[William33 110]

In my experience, the solenoid is attached to the starter of most modern vehicles. If you replaced the starter, you already replaced the solenoid.

Edited April 25, 2007 by William33

[kaydee457 13]

Well, I hate to beat a dead horse here but Ford uses a Bendix drive system that requires the starter motor to spin to engage the flywheel. This means that the starter motor has to be spinning, and power applied to keep it engaged.....

IT DOES NOT HAVE A SOLENOID, hence the external starter relay....

All this chit-chat would be moot had Sharon's hubby pulled the wire from the "S" terminal on the starter switch.....We would have known with absolute certainty......

The Bendix system places the starter drive pinion on a helically-cut driveshaft. When the starter motor begins turning, the inertia of the drive pinion assembly causes it to ride forward on the helix and thus engage with the ring gear. When the engine starts, backdrive from the ring gear causes the drive pinion to exceed the rotative speed of the starter, at which point the drive pinion is forced back down the helical shaft and thus out of mesh with the ring gear.

The bold sentence describes why these starters almost never (I've never heard or seen one) fail stuck engaged.

[PlatyPius 5]

And when the spring breaks, or the pivot seizes up, the starter sticks engaged. Quite common in the salt belt, really. I would say that probably 20% of the time it was a mechanical starter problem.

[kaydee457 13]

And when the spring breaks, or the pivot seizes up, the starter sticks engaged. Quite common in the salt belt, really. I would say that probably 20% of the time it was a mechanical starter problem.

Care to back that up with some "stats"? I've owned Fords all my life (and I'm pushing 60 now), as well as having worked on them, and have never heard of, nor experienced that mode of failure.

Not saying it can't happen, just saying it's very rare.....In fact, if Ford ever did have a "Better Idea", at least this was one.

Now if you get a rebuilt starter and there are loose parts, all bets are off. I changed out an alternator recently that had the pulley loose out of the box, unbeknownst to me.

I never cared for starters with solenoids such as GM provided on their models for years. Too hard to get at the solenoid and too much going on when you engage them.....all the current used for the motor is switched via a slipring contact.

No thanks.....

Edited April 25, 2007 by kaydee457

[Sharon 1]

Kaydee, my hubby did do the test, I asked him tonight. He said he did it and the same result happened...the starter wouldn't disengage. So what does that mean?

The mechanic wasn't able to get to my van today, dammit. So I'm bummin' a ride again for one more day only, I hope.

[William33 110]

Well, I hate to beat a dead horse here but Ford uses a Bendix drive system that requires the starter motor to spin to engage the flywheel. This means that the starter motor has to be spinning, and power applied to keep it engaged.....

IT DOES NOT HAVE A SOLENOID, hence the external starter relay....

All this chit-chat would be moot had Sharon's hubby pulled the wire from the "S" terminal on the starter switch.....We would have known with absolute certainty......

The Bendix system places the starter drive pinion on a helically-cut driveshaft. When the starter motor begins turning,the inertia of the drive pinion assembly causes it to ride forward on the helix and thus engage with the ring gear. When the engine starts, backdrive from the ring gear causes the drive pinion to exceed the rotative speed of the starter, at which point the drive pinion is forced back down the helical shaft and thus out of mesh with the ring gear

The bold sentence describes why these starters almost never (I've never heard or seen one) fail stuck engaged.

For the purposes of this debate, a solenoid is a type of relay. Semantics.

[PlatyPius 5]

And when the spring breaks, or the pivot seizes up, the starter sticks engaged. Quite common in the salt belt, really. I would say that probably 20% of the time it was a mechanical starter problem.

Care to back that up with some "stats"? I've owned Fords all my life (and I'm pushing 60 now), as well as having worked on them, and have never heard of, nor experienced that mode of failure.

Not saying it can't happen, just saying it's very rare.....In fact, if Ford ever did have a "Better Idea", at least this was one.

Now if you get a rebuilt starter and there are loose parts, all bets are off. I changed out an alternator recently that had the pulley loose out of the box, unbeknownst to me.

I never cared for starters with solenoids such as GM provided on their models for years. Too hard to get at the solenoid and too much going on when you engage them.....all the current used for the motor is switched via a slipring contact.

No thanks.....

What stats? You think there are tables of stats about that anywhere? I can only state my experience as a Ford technician in both Indiana and Wyoming. I've seen several fail in that manner. Why is it so hard to believe? It's a mechanical part that can and does fail just as much as any other mechanical part. I've worked on probably over 1000 Ford vehicles. Have you owned that many? I've attended all of Ford's classes at their Denver training center. Have you? I'm not saying that this IS what is wrong with the van in question, but you seem determined to say that is NOT what is wrong, and can't possibly be. Wrong. It can be. Especially with a ####### rebuilt starter from Advance (ie: #######) auto parts.

Well, I hate to beat a dead horse here but Ford uses a Bendix drive system that requires the starter motor to spin to engage the flywheel. This means that the starter motor has to be spinning, and power applied to keep it engaged.....

IT DOES NOT HAVE A SOLENOID, hence the external starter relay....

All this chit-chat would be moot had Sharon's hubby pulled the wire from the "S" terminal on the starter switch.....We would have known with absolute certainty......

The Bendix system places the starter drive pinion on a helically-cut driveshaft. When the starter motor begins turning,the inertia of the drive pinion assembly causes it to ride forward on the helix and thus engage with the ring gear. When the engine starts, backdrive from the ring gear causes the drive pinion to exceed the rotative speed of the starter, at which point the drive pinion is forced back down the helical shaft and thus out of mesh with the ring gear

The bold sentence describes why these starters almost never (I've never heard or seen one) fail stuck engaged.

For the purposes of this debate, a solenoid is a type of relay. Semantics.

Correct. Both use electrical energy to perform a mechanical function. A relay mechanically closes a set of contacts, a solenoid mechanically engages another mechanical device (the starter gear).

[archie07 0]

Well, I hate to beat a dead horse here but Ford uses a Bendix drive system that requires the starter motor to spin to engage the flywheel. This means that the starter motor has to be spinning, and power applied to keep it engaged.....

IT DOES NOT HAVE A SOLENOID, hence the external starter relay....

All this chit-chat would be moot had Sharon's hubby pulled the wire from the "S" terminal on the starter switch.....We would have known with absolute certainty......

The Bendix system places the starter drive pinion on a helically-cut driveshaft. When the starter motor begins turning,the inertia of the drive pinion assembly causes it to ride forward on the helix and thus engage with the ring gear. When the engine starts, backdrive from the ring gear causes the drive pinion to exceed the rotative speed of the starter, at which point the drive pinion is forced back down the helical shaft and thus out of mesh with the ring gear

The bold sentence describes why these starters almost never (I've never heard or seen one) fail stuck engaged.

For the purposes of this debate, a solenoid is a type of relay. Semantics.

Clarification, thank you mags, I meant to say the lock cylinder. The fact the van remained running leads me to believe the cylinder is faulty. The steering column has to be dropped to change that ignition switch to get to the two screws holding it in place so hopefully it isnt that. I just went thru this problem and my ford starter kept turning after the truck started. It happened to me too. I changed the starter and solenoid in the 7/11 parking lot. Still problems so installed a new key lock and it's ok now. I,m not saying this is her problem but with a new starter and solenoid she may need to go to the column next.