The Law Is on the N.F.L. Players’ Side

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

22 minutes ago, bcking said:

Even if it is only one line, I'm sure they have something that could very easily be used to claim someone wearing hate speech on a shirt violates the dress code.

 

Again - I doubt most workplaces have anything like that which pertains to kneeling for the anthem. If you were fired for that, I imagine you would have a legal case.

No you wouldn't 

[bcking 3,157]

11 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

No you wouldn't 

Since neither one of us is a lawyer, we'll have to seek independent councel on this subject if it happens to come up. I don't believe there is any precedent, so it would be an interesting case.

 

To be clear - I'm talking about scenarios (which I assume would be most cases) where your Employer DOES NOT have a written requirement to stand during the Anthem. If it was written into the corporate bylaws and you were given the opportunity to read them and agree to them before being hired, then they would have a leg to stand on. If there was no mention and they one day decided to fire you for it, you would definitely have a case. While "Freedom of Expression" is limited in the workplace when the workplace establishes their own standards, you have the default right to freedom of expression if your workplace has neglected to establish their own standards.

 

Would love to see a legal expert weigh in. I know we have at least one around here.

Edited October 26, 2017 by bcking

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

26 minutes ago, bcking said:

Since neither one of us is a lawyer, we'll have to seek independent councel on this subject if it happens to come up. I don't believe there is any precedent, so it would be an interesting case.

 

To be clear - I'm talking about scenarios (which I assume would be most cases) where your Employer DOES NOT have a written requirement to stand during the Anthem. If it was written into the corporate bylaws and you were given the opportunity to read them and agree to them before being hired, then they would have a leg to stand on. If there was no mention and they one day decided to fire you for it, you would definitely have a case. While "Freedom of Expression" is limited in the workplace when the workplace establishes their own standards, you have the default right to freedom of expression if your workplace has neglected to establish their own standards.

 

Would love to see a legal expert weigh in. I know we have at least one around here.

The simple answer is, it depends on the state  as long as you dont violate any of the big ones protected by federal law. Age, Race, National origin etc

 

On edit I would add collective bargaining agreement if you are a Union shop. 

 

I spent 30 year of my life in industrial management, both Union and not. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Nature Boy Flair

[bcking 3,157]

10 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

The simple answer is, it depends on the state  as long as you dont violate any of the big ones protected by federal law. Age, Race, National origin etc

It would fall under the "Freedom of Expression" and an employer firing someone for violating public policy. If the employee was not given a contract that stipulated that they must abide by a specific behavior, the employer cannot randomly make up a rule one day stating their employee must kneel. While freedom of expression doesn't always apply in the workplace, the employer has to generally establish the situations in which it is limited and you have to have knowingly agreed to those restrictions.

 

It would have to be in the contract, and the employee would have to have had access to that at the time of hiring (or if employee contracts changed after being hired, they need to be properly notified). If it isn't in the contract, the employer could try to make the case that it is "standard practice" at their organization, but you would at least still have a legal case to argue whether or not that is the case. Since most companies don't routinely play the National Anthem (outside of government, and sports I guess), it would be hard for an employer to make the case that it is their "company culture" to stand for the National Anthem if they decided to start playing it tomorrow.

 

Like in the case of the NFL, it is "standard practice" to stand for the National Anthem. However, at the same time their contracts state only that they "should". I'd actually go as far as say the NFL would have had a better leg to stand on if they wanted to fire players if their contracts said NOTHING about what a player should/can/cannot do during the National Anthem. If the contract said nothing, they could have argued that there is a well known, standard culture of all players standing and therefore they are violating that "company culture". Since it is written out clearly that players don't have to, they are stuck until they change that.

 

Also - In general, there are no "simple answers" in law.

Edited October 26, 2017 by bcking

[natty bumppo 297]

Players also have to keep in mind that employers need to protect their very public brand.

When the actions of players tarnish, diminish, or even reduce the perceived value of the brand ... the player is exposing themselves to potential disciplinary action.

This action should be a simple benching ... trade ... or even termination.

 

These professional entertainers should remember ... their big salaries are because they bring value to the brand.

Hurt the brand ... and the brand just may hurt the players personal brand by reducing their play-time, trading, etc..

 

There are lots of other people who would love to respectfully stand and be counted in order to play a game 

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

21 minutes ago, bcking said:

It would fall under the "Freedom of Expression" and an employer firing someone for violating public policy. If the employee was not given a contract that stipulated that they must abide by a specific behavior, the employer cannot randomly make up a rule one day stating their employee must kneel. While freedom of expression doesn't always apply in the workplace, the employer has to generally establish the situations in which it is limited and you have to have knowingly agreed to those restrictions.

 

It would have to be in the contract, and the employee would have to have had access to that at the time of hiring (or if employee contracts changed after being hired, they need to be properly notified). If it isn't in the contract, the employer could try to make the case that it is "standard practice" at their organization, but you would at least still have a legal case to argue whether or not that is the case. Since most companies don't routinely play the National Anthem (outside of government, and sports I guess), it would be hard for an employer to make the case that it is their "company culture" to stand for the National Anthem if they decided to start playing it tomorrow.

 

Like in the case of the NFL, it is "standard practice" to stand for the National Anthem. However, at the same time their contracts state only that they "should". I'd actually go as far as say the NFL would have had a better leg to stand on if they wanted to fire players if their contracts said NOTHING about what a player should/can/cannot do during the National Anthem. If the contract said nothing, they could have argued that there is a well known, standard culture of all players standing and therefore they are violating that "company culture". Since it is written out clearly that players don't have to, they are stuck until they change that.

 

Also - In general, there are no "simple answers" in law.

Nope 

[bcking 3,157]

6 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

Nope 

What a well reasoned and logical argument. Also unsurprisingly succinct. Exactly as expected.

Edited October 26, 2017 by bcking

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

2 hours ago, bcking said:

Kneeling is linked to knee cancer.

 

We need to increase awareness to fight this deadly epidemic.

 

also to marriage proposals.  or some might say same thing.....

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

52 minutes ago, bcking said:

What a well reasoned and logical argument. Also unsurprisingly succinct. Exactly as expected.

Sorry but i dont feel the need to google tons of information and write paragraph after paragraph, to reinforce something I have already made clear with a simple short  explanation.. Having been in front line management and having been a military officer for many years, I am,  " my yes is my yes, and my no is my no kind of guy".  I dont make long flamboyant self flagellating speeches , I get stuff done.

 

Here is what I said on the subject . That isn't going to change just because you prattle on with a bunch of labor law self , self inventing hypothesis, that have little basis in the real world.

 

""The simple answer is, it depends on the State  as long as you dont violate any of the big ones protected by federal law. Age, Race, National origin etc

 

On edit I would add collective bargaining agreement if you are a Union shop. ""

 

 

 

[bcking 3,157]

54 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

Sorry but i dont feel the need to google tons of information and write paragraph after paragraph, to reinforce something I have already made clear with a simple short  explanation.. Having been in front line management and having been a military officer for many years, I am,  " my yes is my yes, and my no is my no kind of guy".  I dont make long flamboyant self flagellating speeches , I get stuff done.

 

Here is what I said on the subject . That isn't going to change just because you prattle on with a bunch of labor law self , self inventing hypothesis, that have little basis in the real world.

 

""The simple answer is, it depends on the State  as long as you dont violate any of the big ones protected by federal law. Age, Race, National origin etc

 

On edit I would add collective bargaining agreement if you are a Union shop. ""

 

 

 

Yes and my "simple and short" counter to that is that Freedom of Expression IS a "big one", as long as the corporation/business doesn't have exceptions stipulated in their contract.

 

If something isn't spelled out in your contract or the business's code of conduct or whatever they use then the "default" is the freedom of expression you have no matter where you are.

 

A company has the right to say that you can't say certain things, dress a certain way etc... But they have to make that clear. If they have not, they can't punish you for doing it. You can take them to court for wrongful termination because they did not properly express their expectation to you in writing or in person prior to the event that led to your termination.

Edited October 26, 2017 by bcking

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

1 minute ago, bcking said:

Yes and my "simple and short" counter to that is that Freedom of Expression IS a "big one", as long as the corporation/business doesn't have exceptions stipulated in their contract.

 

If something isn't spelled out in the contract than the "default" is the freedom of expression you have no matter where you are. A company has the right to say that you can't say certain things, dress a certain way etc... But they have to make that clear. If they have not, they can't punish you for doing it.

you are still wrong 

[bcking 3,157]

Just now, Nature Boy Flair said:

you are still wrong 

Sorry but you are wrong.

 

I have just as much ability to say that as you do. It has equal weight and meaning. Whoop-dee-doo.

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

6 minutes ago, bcking said:

Sorry but you are wrong.

 

I have just as much ability to say that as you do. It has equal weight and meaning. Whoop-dee-doo.

and it much more palatable than 3 paragraphs off waaa phoooo  woooooie

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

and it much more palatable than 3 paragraphs off waaa phoooo  woooooie

I always seem to forget to adjust how I discuss things in certain situations with certain people.

 

I'll try my best in the future to bring myself to match your level. My apologies.

Edited October 26, 2017 by bcking

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

Certain  people in certain situations are forgiven..   certain apologies  are certainly   accepted 

 

This much I am certain of