At least 50 dead, 400 injured in shooting near Mandalay Bay casino, 1 suspect 'down'

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, Sonea said:

In my opinion comparing death rates of products is not a red herring. The more freedom you have to own particular products, naturally there will be higher death rates from those products.

 

Also with talk of changing the 2nd amendment, thats fine, just realize the social effects will be as great if not greater than what occurred  in the 1920s and 1930s.

Underground "prohibition-era" gun parties?

[bcking 3,157]

13 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

So stick to the CDC numbers, what are the stats for 2016?  How do you justify including firearm suicides in the total deaths?  I can agree with homicides and accidental gun deaths, but if a person wants to off themself they will find a way.  The point is that there are a lot of things used by people that lead to entirely preventable deaths.  Vehicles, bath tubs, tobacco, etc., but in this case we only want to ban limit or whatever one thing and not discuss the entirety of human behavior.

Here are updated numbers for you:

 

Firearm deaths (homicides) in 2014: 11,018 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_04.pdf - Page 12)

Alcohol poisoning deaths averaged from 2006-2010: 1,647 (Source already provided)

 

That is a pretty close comparison. Though Alcohol poisoning is "self-inflicted" in the majority of cases. So I guess we could argue that if someone wanted to poison themselves to death they would "find a way" if alcohol was taken out of the equation?

Edited October 3, 2017 by bcking

[bcking 3,157]

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923

 

If you want to talk about the relationship between suicide and access to firearms.

[Sonea 138]

1 minute ago, bcking said:

Underground "prohibition-era" gun parties?

Degradation of respect for the law. You had lawyers for instance with no criminal history saying 'ok well I'm going to become a smuggler'

 

I have no doubt that 30% of the population would go their own way. You can see signs of it already in state's with the strictest laws.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

32 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

Alcohol has nothing to do with the issue of guns, but it is often used as a red herring.

 

You need to go huntin with me and the crew and you will understand the relationship between the two.

[CaliCat 3,957]

1 hour ago, Il Mango Dulce said:

You need to go huntin with me and the crew and you will understand the relationship between the two.

 

LOL. Anytime!

[JimandChristy 1,689]

6 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

Go back and re-read your list.  Which one of the top five items in the list would have prevented this?  A person with no criminal record, no FBI or local law enforcement radar traces, etc., etc., etc., that was more than willing to take their time to plan and outfit themselves to do this massacre and take himself with it would have made it through all of them.  The only answer then would be a complete and total firearm ban right?

Funny how incidents in Europe are mainly preventable? Wonder why that is?

 

Just to add why is it some Americans over here pick a third world country to compare America to, to justify that America isn't really that bad and on par with Europe. It's truly bizarre.

 

Comparing first world to third world countries doesn't make any sense when trying to work out whether deaths by gun are a problem in a first world country.

Edited October 3, 2017 by JimandChristy

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

6 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

Go back and re-read your list.  Which one of the top five items in the list would have prevented this?  A person with no criminal record, no FBI or local law enforcement radar traces, etc., etc., etc., that was more than willing to take their time to plan and outfit themselves to do this massacre and take himself with it would have made it through all of them.  The only answer then would be a complete and total firearm ban right?

We don't have enough information and that list is focused on reducing overall gun violence.  

[Dianalorena 1,153]

I've never understood the love that a lot of North Americans have for guns. I grew up in a country that prohibits them, where you can't (legally) buy them. 

 

This, of course, doesn't stop people from actually getting ahold of them and hurting/killing others.  We have an ongoing drug war where they use AK-47's to raid bars, clubs and even public places and kill people involved in crime and innocent bystanders. The fact that gun control isn't really a discussion in Mexico is, that after all, people technically shouldn't have access to guns to begin with. The black market takes care of this. Same as how making drugs illegal doesn't stop the trafficking and consumption. The alcohol prohibition of the 20's is another example of how these laws tend to backfire.

 

Having stricter gun laws is what a lot of people want, but I can see how it won't be easy. Maybe psychological tests? but this doesn't really stop the illegal trade and it isn't a fail proof plan. To my understanding, the shooter modified his guns to convert them to full automatics because they're banned. It's human nature to always find a way, for both the good and unfortunately the bad. I don't have enough knowledge to discuss guns and their laws. I don't think that ''guns kill people'' I know people kill people, but guns sure make things easier and to a greater scale. You can't kill 59+ and injure 500+ people with a lot of easily accessible things, thankfully. Maybe a truck/trailer? it still seems highly unlikely. 

 

 

Nonetheless, this is horrifying. I was truly shocked by it, I wanted to cry. I can't imagine the pain the families of the ones that sadly lost their lives must be feeling, all the injured people, everyone in Las Vegas and the U.S as well. It is easy to politize especially because I know gun control has been a hot topic for a while now, but we shouldn't forget it's a tragedy first. 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Dianalorena

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Summa you people really crack me up.  I guess none of you who think guns are the problem have been here long enough to remember the memes from previous discussions.  One that never seems to be understood by some is that lone gun one.  Even if loaded, whether in a closet, on a table or laying in a driveway, a gun can do no harm by itself.  The same as a knife, hatchet, etc.  It is a weapon that must be wielded by someone who doesn’t value human life.  The biggest advantage of a gun is standoff distance.  Allows cowards hurt others from a distance.

 

Do any of you actually think a person would leave a loaded gun in a driveway, ever?  Kind of helps me better understand other arguments we have had on here.  

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

6 minutes ago, Dianalorena said:

I've never understood the love that a lot of North Americans have for guns. I grew up in a country that prohibits them, where you can't (legally) buy them. 

 

This, of course, doesn't stop people from actually getting ahold of them and hurting/killing others.  We have an ongoing drug war where they use AK-47's to raid bars, clubs and even public places and kill people involved in crime and innocent bystanders. The fact that gun control isn't really a discussion in Mexico is, that after all, people technically shouldn't have access to guns to begin with. The black market takes care of this. Same as how making drugs illegal doesn't stop the trafficking and consumption. The alcohol prohibition of the 20's is another example of how these laws tend to backfire.

 

Having stricter gun laws is what a lot of people want, but I can see how it won't be easy. Maybe psychological tests? but this doesn't really stop the illegal trade and it isn't a fail proof plan. To my understanding, the shooter modified his guns to convert them to full automatics because they're banned. It's human nature to always find a way, for both the good and unfortunately the bad. I don't have enough knowledge to discuss guns and their laws. I don't think that ''guns kill people'' I know people kill people, but guns sure make things easier and to a greater scale. You can't kill 59+ and injure 500+ people with a lot of easily accessible things, thankfully. Maybe a truck/trailer? it still seems highly unlikely. 

 

 

Nonetheless, this is horrifying. I was truly shocked by it, I wanted to cry. I can't imagine the pain the families of the ones that sadly lost their lives must be feeling, all the injured people, everyone in Las Vegas and the U.S as well. It is easy to politize especially because I know gun control has been a hot topic for a while now, but we shouldn't forget it's a tragedy first. 

 

Awesome response, thanks for sharing.  There is no easy fix, or it would have been done by now.  No one wants gun deaths, except those who commit them.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Also saw pics of two broken windows high up in the hotel, yet muzzle flashes from somewhere lower, around the 4th floor or so on a live video.  

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

10 hours ago, CaliCat said:

 

Amen.  If you don't know how to handle a weapon, you have no business owning one. 

I actually agree with this. 

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

2 hours ago, JimandChristy said:

Funny how incidents in Europe are mainly preventable? Wonder why that is?

 

Just to add why is it some Americans over here pick a third world country to compare America to, to justify that America isn't really that bad and on par with Europe. It's truly bizarre.

 

Comparing first world to third world countries doesn't make any sense when trying to work out whether deaths by gun are a problem in a first world country.

Yeah I wonder why that they have people barge into a concert and kill over a 100+ people. While here in the USA a terrorist can barely kill 50 people in a night club, or have to do long range shooting because he couldn't get into a venue due to security. 

 

We are very much on par with Europe and we are surpassing it in many ways. You have to understand that the 2nd Amendment is NOT going away anytime soon. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

9 hours ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  Not trying to be funny. If that was a true story it was irresponsible. If not, it's a poor joke, especially given the current discussion. At any rate, your style is well known too, but let's not go down that road again.

My style is very open, and my account is still the same.  Feel free to be as transparent as I any day.

 

It wasn’t a true story, obviously.  Anyone who has ever taken part in one of these gun control discussions should be familiar with the argument of how a loaded weapon, left to it’s own designs, will never kill anyone.  It takes a HUMAN to do that.  It’s that HUMAN element that is the problem, and no amount of gun control will ever change that.