Whether Students Carrying Their Own Guns Could Have Prevented Massacre

[natty bumppo 297]

i'd say he probably knows that and won't shoot at something unless he's got a reasonable chance of hitting it and he knows the backstop too. i think saying 20-30 students firing at one time in a classroom is going overboard from what is being discussed

Sure...my DAD knows that, he's 61 years old and isn't an idiot. We're talking about kids here. College kids. Most of them don't have much common sense. I didn't when I was a college kid.

i think that's a stretch, saying they don't because you didn't.

and btw, i knew quite a bit about gun safety when i was 12..........

Guess not everyone hangs out with the same bunch of people. I knew quite a few responsible college age students who were very familiar with firearms. Some of them were on rifle teams and one was good enough to shoot at Camp Perry at the age of 14 and 15.

Some of the students even had families and real jobs.

On the flip side of the coin, I also knew quite a few college age kids who were taking masters courses in "person chemical experimentation", hedonism 405, while preparing thesis on narcissism.

[Emancipation 2]

How many school massacres have there been there?

How many do you think?

* Cologne School massacre, Germany, 1964

* Dunblane massacre, Scotland, 1996

* Erfurt massacre, Germany, 2002

* Beslan crisis, Russia, 2004

There was also an incident where someone attacked a bunch of school kids with a machete; I believe that was in the UK but I can't recall the details.

So...fewer shootings in Europe, but they have happened from time to time.

Got this brief list off of Wikipedia... It's quite disturbing really when you look at this list. 4 for Canada alone.

Enoch Brown school massacre - Franklin County, Pennsylvania, United States; July 26, 1764

Poe Elementary School Attack - Houston, Texas, United States; September 15, 1959

University of Texas at Austin massacre - Austin, Texas, United States; August 1, 1966

Kent State shootings - Kent, Ohio, United States; May 4, 1970

Avivim school bus massacre - Avivim, Israel; May 8, 1970

Jackson State killings - Jackson, Mississippi, United States; May 14-15, 1970

Ma'alot massacre - Ma'alot, Israel; May 15, 1974

California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre - Fullerton, California, United States; July 12, 1976

Parkway South Junior High School shooting - Saint Louis, Missouri, United States; January 20, 1983

Stockton massacre - Stockton, California, United States; January 17, 1989

École Polytechnique Massacre - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; December 6, 1989

University of Iowa shooting - Iowa City, Iowa, United States; November 1, 1991

Concordia University massacre -Montreal, Quebec, Canada; August 24, 1992

Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting - Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States; December 14, 1992

Richland High School shooting - Lynnville, Tennessee, United States; November 15, 1995.

Frontier Junior High shooting - Moses Lake, Washington, United States; February 2, 1996

Dunblane massacre - Dunblane, Scotland, United Kingdom; March 13, 1996

Sanaa massacre - Sanaa, Yemen; March 30, 1997

Pearl High School shooting, Pearl, Mississippi, United States; October 1, 1997

Heath High School shooting, West Paducah, Kentucky, United States; December 1, 1997

Jonesboro massacre - Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States; March 24, 1998

Thurston High School shooting - Springfield, Oregon, United States; May 21, 1998

Columbine High School massacre - Littleton, Colorado, United States; April 20, 1999

W. R. Myers High School shooting - Taber, Alberta, Canada; April 28, 1999

Heritage High School shooting - Conyers, Georgia, United States; May 20, 1999

Santana High School - Santee, California, United States; March 5, 2001

Appalachian School of Law shooting - Grundy, Virginia, United States; January 16, 2002

Erfurt massacre - Erfurt, Germany; April 26, 2002

Monash University shooting - Melbourne, Australia; October 21, 2002

Rocori High School shootings - Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States; September 24, 2003

Southwood Middle School tragedy, Miami, Florida; February 3, 2004

Beslan school hostage crisis - Beslan, Russia; September 1, 2004

Red Lake High School massacre - Red Lake, Minnesota, United States; March 21, 2005

Dawson College shooting - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; September 13, 2006

Platte Canyon High School shooting - Bailey, Colorado, United States; September 27, 2006

Amish school shooting - Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States; October 2, 2006

Weston High School shooting, Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29, 2006

Henry Foss High School - Tacoma, Washington, United States January 3, 2007

Beirut Arab University shooting - Beirut, Lebanon; January 25, 2007

Virginia Tech massacre - Blacksburg, Virginia, United States; April 16, 2007

[Caladan 19]

i'd say he probably knows that and won't shoot at something unless he's got a reasonable chance of hitting it and he knows the backstop too. i think saying 20-30 students firing at one time in a classroom is going overboard from what is being discussed

Sure...my DAD knows that, he's 61 years old and isn't an idiot. We're talking about kids here. College kids. Most of them don't have much common sense. I didn't when I was a college kid.

i think that's a stretch, saying they don't because you didn't.

and btw, i knew quite a bit about gun safety when i was 12..........

Guess not everyone hangs out with the same bunch of people. I knew quite a few responsible college age students who were very familiar with firearms. Some of them were on rifle teams and one was good enough to shoot at Camp Perry at the age of 14 and 15.

Some of the students even had families and real jobs.

On the flip side of the coin, I also knew quite a few college age kids who were taking masters courses in "person chemical experimentation", hedonism 405, while preparing thesis on narcissism.

I knew people who went to Camp Perry. (I didn't realize it was all that prestigious. My high school rifle team sent a couple each year.) One of them committed suicide last year, aged 28. Sadly, being a responsible gun owner isn't a defense against mental illness.

[natty bumppo 297]

i'd say he probably knows that and won't shoot at something unless he's got a reasonable chance of hitting it and he knows the backstop too. i think saying 20-30 students firing at one time in a classroom is going overboard from what is being discussed

Sure...my DAD knows that, he's 61 years old and isn't an idiot. We're talking about kids here. College kids. Most of them don't have much common sense. I didn't when I was a college kid.

i think that's a stretch, saying they don't because you didn't.

and btw, i knew quite a bit about gun safety when i was 12..........

Guess not everyone hangs out with the same bunch of people. I knew quite a few responsible college age students who were very familiar with firearms. Some of them were on rifle teams and one was good enough to shoot at Camp Perry at the age of 14 and 15.

Some of the students even had families and real jobs.

On the flip side of the coin, I also knew quite a few college age kids who were taking masters courses in "person chemical experimentation", hedonism 405, while preparing thesis on narcissism.

I knew people who went to Camp Perry. (I didn't realize it was all that prestigious. My high school rifle team sent a couple each year.) One of them committed suicide last year, aged 28. Sadly, being a responsible gun owner isn't a defense against mental illness.

Camp Perry is where you will find the disciplined and very capable shooters during the Nationals. And this is where and how these people participated. Not just being there for target practice.

Yes, I've also had a non gun owner classmate in college commit suicide.

And a co-worker had her 12 year old daughter killed in a motor accident when the daughter was returning from a church retreat because the driver of a van full of kids was negligent. Your point is? That anyone is capable of killing themselves? Or others?

There is no law to prevent these senseless things from happening. There is the capability to stop things when they do happen to prevent further losses.

[derekkj 0]

A bit late, but just a few thoughts as I read through this whole thread.

Lots of rounds were fired at Virginia Tech. If the classrooms were as small as you think they were, they'd get smoky.

Only if they were they were shooting an antique gun or perhaps handloaded their own ammunition. Smokeless powder was developed in the 1880's and as a result today's ammunition does not give off nearly as much smoke as their predecessors. It certain wouldn't be enough to affect anyone's line of site.

I don't know about you, but I can tell when someone's packing. It's usually obvious.

Like Charles said, most of the people I know who carry concealed don't use shoulder holsters. Ankle holsters, belt holsters, and small of the back holsters are much more common. Bags, packs and purses are also popular and I don't know how you would be able to tell if there was a gun in one.

How about we ban guns but fully legalise the carrying of hand-to-hand weapons - swords, knives, axes etc. Given that hand to hand fighting requires some level of physical fitness we could not only stop crime but lower obesity too!

Kill two birds with one stone eh?

OK, that made me laugh.

I knew people who went to Camp Perry. (I didn't realize it was all that prestigious.

It's actually Camp Perry's centennial anniversary this year, and yes it's very prestigious. It's considered the "World Series of competitive shooting" and military marksman and top-ranked civilians compete each year.

[natty bumppo 297]

A bit late, but just a few thoughts as I read through this whole thread.

Lots of rounds were fired at Virginia Tech. If the classrooms were as small as you think they were, they'd get smoky.

Only if they were they were shooting an antique gun or perhaps handloaded their own ammunition. Smokeless powder was developed in the 1880's and as a result today's ammunition does not give off nearly as much smoke as their predecessors. It certain wouldn't be enough to affect anyone's line of site.

I've been in indoor ranges with people shooting handloads and lead bullets (greased). That produced a little smoke with two people shooting a few hundred rounds. But, it was nowhere near the “thick smoke” as seen with black powder. It was just visible enough to know it was there, not something even close to impairing vision.

[russ 1]

my arguement assumes that such is legal and that the profs carried such. nowhere in any statement did i mention "locked and cocked" though. anyone just walking around with a cocked pistol needs to have their license revoked. so let's be a bit more accurate in our words, shall we?

so assumptions on your part is - that the target is moving, that it will be "some distance" to the perpetrator (alluding to a long shot?), that there is smoke and running people, and that the shooter would take out the prof first.

my thoughts are:

I disagree that carrying a cocked pistol always wrong. Locked means "saftey engaged" and cocked mean the hammer is pulled back.

"Locked & cocked" depends on the gun. This is the safest way to carry a Colt 1911, and many other single action handguns. Many double action handguns should be locked and de-cocked. Many firearms are less safe to carry with the hammer down (most 1911's for instance).

The Glocks that the police carry around here are always cocked (just how they work), and the police usually have a round chambered, and they don't have a saftey. Some police always carry them without a round chambered, and are trained to rack the slide whenever drawing the handgun. This really depends on the training and procedures in place.

I personally prefer to carry with a round chambered in a double action pistol, with a saftey engaged, and the hammer de-cocked. I'm 28 and attend University, have a ccw permit, was in the military, etc. There are many students both old enough and trained responsibly enough that I don't think legal carry on University campuses should be a problem. We are allowed to carry concealed, non-lethal weapons here.

It doesn't take everyone carrying concealed for it to be an effective deterrent. One person carrying is enough. The possibility of one person carrying is also a deterrent.

[Caladan 19]

i'd say he probably knows that and won't shoot at something unless he's got a reasonable chance of hitting it and he knows the backstop too. i think saying 20-30 students firing at one time in a classroom is going overboard from what is being discussed

Sure...my DAD knows that, he's 61 years old and isn't an idiot. We're talking about kids here. College kids. Most of them don't have much common sense. I didn't when I was a college kid.

i think that's a stretch, saying they don't because you didn't.

and btw, i knew quite a bit about gun safety when i was 12..........

Guess not everyone hangs out with the same bunch of people. I knew quite a few responsible college age students who were very familiar with firearms. Some of them were on rifle teams and one was good enough to shoot at Camp Perry at the age of 14 and 15.

Some of the students even had families and real jobs.

On the flip side of the coin, I also knew quite a few college age kids who were taking masters courses in "person chemical experimentation", hedonism 405, while preparing thesis on narcissism.

I knew people who went to Camp Perry. (I didn't realize it was all that prestigious. My high school rifle team sent a couple each year.) One of them committed suicide last year, aged 28. Sadly, being a responsible gun owner isn't a defense against mental illness.

Camp Perry is where you will find the disciplined and very capable shooters during the Nationals. And this is where and how these people participated. Not just being there for target practice.

Yes, I've also had a non gun owner classmate in college commit suicide.

And a co-worker had her 12 year old daughter killed in a motor accident when the daughter was returning from a church retreat because the driver of a van full of kids was negligent. Your point is? That anyone is capable of killing themselves? Or others?

There is no law to prevent these senseless things from happening. There is the capability to stop things when they do happen to prevent further losses.

My point is saying 'A responsible gun owner always will have common sense' just isn't borne out by experience. Some are, some aren't. If you allow responsible gun owners to bring arms on campus, they'll have the same problems as the rest of the population, only there will be a firearm around.

Being a gun owner isn't incompatible, for example, with being a college student who loves to party. Or being a college student despondent over losing a girlfriend. It's not like if you fill out the concealed carry permit, you're guaranteeing that you wouldn't be crazy.

Guns can also be stolen. Even if we guarantee that the responsible gun owner takes care of his gun and is never going to go insane, having a significant number of guns on campus makes it easier for a suicidal or homicidal kid to acquire one in a moment of angst or rage. I don't think it would happen often, but if you take all college campuses, allow them guns, and stipulate one or two extra deaths a year.... over the same time period from the first college shooting till now, you'd have more deaths than the mass rampages put together.

They just wouldn't happen en masse.

[derekkj 0]

Unarmed and vulnerable

Bradford B. Wiles

Wiles, of New Castle, is a graduate student at Virginia Tech.

On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m., my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: "You need to get out of the building."

Upon exiting the classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles and pump shotguns, and policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.

It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.

Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech's student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.

I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out.

First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.

Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.

Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech's campus.

Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.

That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself.

I would also like to point out that when I mentioned to a professor that I would feel safer with my gun, this is what she said to me, "I would feel safer if you had your gun."

The policy that forbids students who are legally licensed to carry in Virginia needs to be changed.

I am qualified and capable of carrying a concealed handgun and urge you to work with me to allow my most basic right of self-defense, and eliminate my entrusting my safety and the safety of my classmates to the government.

This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/80510

[Yodrak 7]

metta,

Good thing they lost, or the odds are that there'd be more than 33 people dead on campus between then and now.

Yodrak

link

More than a year ago, Virginia Tech was at the center of a debate over whether students should be allowed to carry concealed weapons on its campus. The gun advocates lost that debate.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Major Shootings on American College Campuses

[Robor007 0]

How many school massacres have there been there?

How many do you think?

* Cologne School massacre, Germany, 1964

* Dunblane massacre, Scotland, 1996

* Erfurt massacre, Germany, 2002

* Beslan crisis, Russia, 2004

There was also an incident where someone attacked a bunch of school kids with a machete; I believe that was in the UK but I can't recall the details.

So...fewer shootings in Europe, but they have happened from time to time.

Got this brief list off of Wikipedia... It's quite disturbing really when you look at this list. 4 for Canada alone.

Enoch Brown school massacre - Franklin County, Pennsylvania, United States; July 26, 1764

Poe Elementary School Attack - Houston, Texas, United States; September 15, 1959

University of Texas at Austin massacre - Austin, Texas, United States; August 1, 1966

Kent State shootings - Kent, Ohio, United States; May 4, 1970

Avivim school bus massacre - Avivim, Israel; May 8, 1970

Jackson State killings - Jackson, Mississippi, United States; May 14-15, 1970

Ma'alot massacre - Ma'alot, Israel; May 15, 1974

California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre - Fullerton, California, United States; July 12, 1976

Parkway South Junior High School shooting - Saint Louis, Missouri, United States; January 20, 1983

Stockton massacre - Stockton, California, United States; January 17, 1989

École Polytechnique Massacre - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; December 6, 1989

University of Iowa shooting - Iowa City, Iowa, United States; November 1, 1991

Concordia University massacre -Montreal, Quebec, Canada; August 24, 1992

Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting - Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States; December 14, 1992

Richland High School shooting - Lynnville, Tennessee, United States; November 15, 1995.

Frontier Junior High shooting - Moses Lake, Washington, United States; February 2, 1996

Dunblane massacre - Dunblane, Scotland, United Kingdom; March 13, 1996

Sanaa massacre - Sanaa, Yemen; March 30, 1997

Pearl High School shooting, Pearl, Mississippi, United States; October 1, 1997

Heath High School shooting, West Paducah, Kentucky, United States; December 1, 1997

Jonesboro massacre - Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States; March 24, 1998

Thurston High School shooting - Springfield, Oregon, United States; May 21, 1998

Columbine High School massacre - Littleton, Colorado, United States; April 20, 1999

W. R. Myers High School shooting - Taber, Alberta, Canada; April 28, 1999

Heritage High School shooting - Conyers, Georgia, United States; May 20, 1999

Santana High School - Santee, California, United States; March 5, 2001

Appalachian School of Law shooting - Grundy, Virginia, United States; January 16, 2002

Erfurt massacre - Erfurt, Germany; April 26, 2002

Monash University shooting - Melbourne, Australia; October 21, 2002

Rocori High School shootings - Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States; September 24, 2003

Southwood Middle School tragedy, Miami, Florida; February 3, 2004

Beslan school hostage crisis - Beslan, Russia; September 1, 2004

Red Lake High School massacre - Red Lake, Minnesota, United States; March 21, 2005

Dawson College shooting - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; September 13, 2006

Platte Canyon High School shooting - Bailey, Colorado, United States; September 27, 2006

Amish school shooting - Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States; October 2, 2006

Weston High School shooting, Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29, 2006

Henry Foss High School - Tacoma, Washington, United States January 3, 2007

Beirut Arab University shooting - Beirut, Lebanon; January 25, 2007

Virginia Tech massacre - Blacksburg, Virginia, United States; April 16, 2007

By my count 30 of the 40 occurred in the US. I think that's pretty significant.

[natty bumppo 297]

metta,

Good thing they lost, or the odds are that there'd be more than 33 people dead on campus between then and now.

Yodrak

link

More than a year ago, Virginia Tech was at the center of a debate over whether students should be allowed to carry concealed weapons on its campus. The gun advocates lost that debate.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Major Shootings on American College Campuses

Please share with us your proof that this would be the case.

I fully agree with the article.

The police are only there to clean-up after the fact or try to stop a prolonged unsavory act. So who is responsible for your personal safety? The local/ State Police?

Not so.

You are responsible for your own safety. Just think if the police were responsible for a persons safety, there would now be 33 lawsuits to be placed against LE agencies for their failure to perform their duty this week.

[Caladan 19]

I imagine the lawsuits will begin as soon as VA Tech formally confirms that Cho killed the two in the dormitory.

[natty bumppo 297]

I imagine the lawsuits will begin as soon as VA Tech formally confirms that Cho killed the two in the dormitory.

Lawsuits against the police? Or against VT ?

[russ 1]

Police in the US have never had any liability for failing to ensure the saftey of the people. This has always been the case here. If this were not the case, the police would be potentially liable for every crime that is commited. I am not a lawyer (nor a cop), but I believe police can be liable for failing to enforce the law. They are called "Law Enforcement," not "Crime Prevention."

The function of police is to investigate crimes, not to prevent them (though their presence frequently does has this effect).

You are responsible for your own safety. Just think if the police were responsible for a persons safety, there would now be 33 lawsuits to be placed against LE agencies for their failure to perform their duty this week.