The wussifying of America

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

And to those out there that say; since I don't have any kids, I'm not worthy of chiming in on child-rearing, I would like to raise these points. Not all kids grow up to be "model citizens", does that mean having a kid qualifies every parent as an "expert" on child-rearing?

good point - i'll have to remember that when the very same ones start in on guns....which as they don't own any, their viewpoint is invalid

Seung-Hui Cho had a point of view and he expressed it 170 times...

and you've exceeded him even though you don't own a gun

I've not shot one person, let alone 32...

not surprising, you don't have a gun.

btw, i have over a dozen guns and i've not shot anyone either

[Rae's_lover 0]

I am totaly agreed with this Brave American and it is better to die while protecting someone ,rather then living in fear.....great post

[slim 1,525]

Only a month ago we had a situation where a kid who is usually on the starting end of trouble has gotten beaten up by several other kids.Are you actually telling me that it's okay to say to this kid or his parents: "Yes maam, I'm very sorry your kid got beat up but he has been bullying some other kids for a month now so we feel he got what he deserves and therefore we will not do a darn thing for him."

That's crazy...

It is dissapointing that even after 20- something pages of this thread you continue to clammer same old "we should change", and have not yet provided and answer as to HOW we should do that....

Yes, that's what I'm telling you.

The way the "system" is set up in America, we have equal protection for those that do right, and those that do wrong. You said yourself, this is a kid who is usually on the starting end of trouble. Do you think the kids that beat him up did so because they felt like it was "his turn" to get beat up, or maybe they finally joined together and took action against him because his frequent trips to the office weren't enough to stop his aggression toward them?

Think that over for a minute.... I'll wait.

Maybe they were tired of getting assaulted, and when they took counteraction (collectively, no less!) to end the aggression, instead of being applauded for stopping an inappropriate action against them (albeit by an also inappropriate action, but an effective one) they're the ones punished because "it's only fair."

Since I'm not being clear in how we change our mentality toward violent actions, you said in your post that it's just crazy to tell a student's mother "Yes maam, I'm very sorry your kid got beat up but he has been bullying some other kids for a month now so we feel he got what he deserves and therefore we will not do a darn thing for him." Well, that's exactly what needs to happen.

Why won't you do that? Because you're scared of being sued. Not because it's wrong to tell someone "hey, your kid was being mean to the other kids and the other kids kicked his butt." That's what you would tell your kids wouldn't you? You said a couple posts ago your daughter gets her crayon taken and it's the end of her world. Well, when she hits your son, do you tell your son that it's OK for him to take little sister's crayon because she's not allowed to hit him? NO! You tell him, "well, if you keep taking her crayon, she's going to keep hitting you!" (I'm sure you also tell your daughter that hitting in response to robbery isn't acceptable, it's just a crayon. There are better ways to learn to share.)

But, the bottom line is kids should be taught that doing certain things are going to have certain consequences. We as adults are scared to do that because we're afraid other adults will sue us. That needs to change.

It's time for us to take a stand on what's right. I'm not saying PTA moms need to go to school classrooms with shotguns until all their students feel safer, but I'm saying that we do need to start telling the other moms to "Shut the hell up! Your son is a bad kid, and when he picks on other kids, he deserves to get his butt kicked. And furthermore, if you were any kind of parent, he wouldn't be bullying kids at school because he'd fear the butt kicking he was going to get at home so much that he wouldn't even think of bullying kids at school."

This "time out" b/s that people are doing now is great.... If it works to effectively control the behavior of your child. But, most kids go to time out like hockey players go to the penalty box. To catch their breath. Then, they do more bad stuff, and eventually little Skyler is back on time out. However, little Joey that just got his butt kicked doesn't have time to catch his breath because his pops just cleaned his clock. (Metaphorically speaking, of course... I know, hitting kids is wrong!) What we're doing in America is creating a society that expects non-violent consequences, even for violent actions. That's got to change.

People in American society are being trained from such a young age that regardless of what is happening around them, it'll all get sorted out in nice peaceful way in the end. That's great when your son steals your daughter's crayon. That's not great when a madman opens fire on your classroom. We're also being taught later in life that if you "hurt someone's feelings" then you're going to be the one in trouble. That's fine when everyone at work needs to be given equal opportunity, but it's not fine when someone needs to be carried up a flight of steps. There are things in America that are not fair. There are things in America that are ugly, that are mean, and that are just downright unpleasant. Thankfully most of us never have to deal with those things. But, when we do, we are very ill-equipped to deal with them and have the upper-hand.

We can change that by teaching our kids that violence IS acceptable in certain circumstances, and by being more accepting as adults when violence occurs that someone is accountable for their own actions, and that someone should not be "protected" like everyone else.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Only a month ago we had a situation where a kid who is usually on the starting end of trouble has gotten beaten up by several other kids.Are you actually telling me that it's okay to say to this kid or his parents: "Yes maam, I'm very sorry your kid got beat up but he has been bullying some other kids for a month now so we feel he got what he deserves and therefore we will not do a darn thing for him."

That's crazy...

It is dissapointing that even after 20- something pages of this thread you continue to clammer same old "we should change", and have not yet provided and answer as to HOW we should do that....

Yes, that's what I'm telling you.

The way the "system" is set up in America, we have equal protection for those that do right, and those that do wrong. You said yourself, this is a kid who is usually on the starting end of trouble. Do you think the kids that beat him up did so because they felt like it was "his turn" to get beat up, or maybe they finally joined together and took action against him because his frequent trips to the office weren't enough to stop his aggression toward them?

Think that over for a minute.... I'll wait.

Maybe they were tired of getting assaulted, and when they took counteraction (collectively, no less!) to end the aggression, instead of being applauded for stopping an inappropriate action against them (albeit by an also inappropriate action, but an effective one) they're the ones punished because "it's only fair."

Since I'm not being clear in how we change our mentality toward violent actions, you said in your post that it's just crazy to tell a student's mother "Yes maam, I'm very sorry your kid got beat up but he has been bullying some other kids for a month now so we feel he got what he deserves and therefore we will not do a darn thing for him." Well, that's exactly what needs to happen.

Why won't you do that? Because you're scared of being sued. Not because it's wrong to tell someone "hey, your kid was being mean to the other kids and the other kids kicked his butt." That's what you would tell your kids wouldn't you? You said a couple posts ago your daughter gets her crayon taken and it's the end of her world. Well, when she hits your son, do you tell your son that it's OK for him to take little sister's crayon because she's not allowed to hit him? NO! You tell him, "well, if you keep taking her crayon, she's going to keep hitting you!" (I'm sure you also tell your daughter that hitting in response to robbery isn't acceptable, it's just a crayon. There are better ways to learn to share.)

But, the bottom line is kids should be taught that doing certain things are going to have certain consequences. We as adults are scared to do that because we're afraid other adults will sue us. That needs to change.

It's time for us to take a stand on what's right. I'm not saying PTA moms need to go to school classrooms with shotguns until all their students feel safer, but I'm saying that we do need to start telling the other moms to "Shut the hell up! Your son is a bad kid, and when he picks on other kids, he deserves to get his butt kicked. And furthermore, if you were any kind of parent, he wouldn't be bullying kids at school because he'd fear the butt kicking he was going to get at home so much that he wouldn't even think of bullying kids at school."

This "time out" b/s that people are doing now is great.... If it works to effectively control the behavior of your child. But, most kids go to time out like hockey players go to the penalty box. To catch their breath. Then, they do more bad stuff, and eventually little Skyler is back on time out. However, little Joey that just got his butt kicked doesn't have time to catch his breath because his pops just cleaned his clock. (Metaphorically speaking, of course... I know, hitting kids is wrong!) What we're doing in America is creating a society that expects non-violent consequences, even for violent actions. That's got to change.

People in American society are being trained from such a young age that regardless of what is happening around them, it'll all get sorted out in nice peaceful way in the end. That's great when your son steals your daughter's crayon. That's not great when a madman opens fire on your classroom. We're also being taught later in life that if you "hurt someone's feelings" then you're going to be the one in trouble. That's fine when everyone at work needs to be given equal opportunity, but it's not fine when someone needs to be carried up a flight of steps. There are things in America that are not fair. There are things in America that are ugly, that are mean, and that are just downright unpleasant. Thankfully most of us never have to deal with those things. But, when we do, we are very ill-equipped to deal with them and have the upper-hand.

We can change that by teaching our kids that violence IS acceptable in certain circumstances, and by being more accepting as adults when violence occurs that someone is accountable for their own actions, and that someone should not be "protected" like everyone else.

Sorry mate - you can't draw any parallels whatsoever between standing up to a bullying and facing down a gunman intent on mass murder. It just isn't there - and the situations are vastly different. Again - you're making all these general 'social' points, which is all well and good in "theory" - but the guy at VA Tech and similar incidents didn't kill "Average Joe". He killed real people from a variety of different backgrounds and upbringings. So to be honest I'm not sure how useful such generalities are when considering how it "went down" because you have absolutely no clear idea (outside of second/third hand news reports) how the individuals involved responded to those events.

Incidentally on the bullying issue (which really is a separate topic BTW) while several people have come forward here admitting to being bullied as a kid - noone has actually come forward admitting to being the bully. Could be that noone here did that as a kid? I have to say... I doubt it...

[ivona 0]

Think that over for a minute.... I'll wait.

You know, if you weren't so condescending throughout this whole thread your arguments would carry much more weight

Maybe they were tired of getting assaulted, and when they took counteraction (collectively, no less!) to end the aggression, instead of being applauded for stopping an inappropriate action against them (albeit by an also inappropriate action, but an effective one) they're the ones punished because "it's only fair."

Since I'm not being clear in how we change our mentality toward violent actions, you said in your post that it's just crazy to tell a student's mother "Yes maam, I'm very sorry your kid got beat up but he has been bullying some other kids for a month now so we feel he got what he deserves and therefore we will not do a darn thing for him." Well, that's exactly what needs to happen.

Why won't you do that? Because you're scared of being sued. Not because it's wrong to tell someone "hey, your kid was being mean to the other kids and the other kids kicked his butt." That's what you would tell your kids wouldn't you? You said a couple posts ago your daughter gets her crayon taken and it's the end of her world. Well, when she hits your son, do you tell your son that it's OK for him to take little sister's crayon because she's not allowed to hit him? NO! You tell him, "well, if you keep taking her crayon, she's going to keep hitting you!" (I'm sure you also tell your daughter that hitting in response to robbery isn't acceptable, it's just a crayon. There are better ways to learn to share.)

Actually, this kid was beaten up by his buds not anyone he might have been bullying. I didn't mention it because I do not think it is in any way relevant who got to him.

You assuming that the reason I or someone else do not say something along those lines to his mom is just completely limited. You, Slim do NOT know why I would never say anything like that so please do not presume. I, actually do believe that his being beaten up is WRONG, I do NOT believe it is "justice". Two wrongs do not make a right.

Again, don't presume to know what I tell my kids Slim.

Frankly, my opinion is that to tell my son that is idiotic but that's just me.

It's time for us to take a stand on what's right. I'm not saying PTA moms need to go to school classrooms with shotguns until all their students feel safer, but I'm saying that we do need to start telling the other moms to "Shut the hell up! Your son is a bad kid, and when he picks on other kids, he deserves to get his butt kicked. And furthermore, if you were any kind of parent, he wouldn't be bullying kids at school because he'd fear the butt kicking he was going to get at home so much that he wouldn't even think of bullying kids at school."

Actually, Slim the biggest bullies tend to be kids who have exactly the kind of discipline at home that you preach about here; kids who get beaten up by their parents evrytime they get in trouble at school.

Again, I say it because I think it bears repeating: Bullying kids tend to be the ones who are being bullied within their family- either mentally or physically. They are desperate for wanting to feel in control in at least one aspect of their lives. Since they do not have that at home they will try to regain it somewhere else and in the only way taught to them by their parents- through violence.

BTW, I'm done with this topic.

Healthy discussion is one thing. Being condescending to others and disrespectfully trying to shove your words and opinions into their mouths, is quite another.

Edited April 30, 2007 by ivona

[slim 1,525]

[You assuming that the reason I or someone else do not say something along those lines to his mom is just completely limited. You, Slim do NOT know why I would never say anything like that so please do not presume. I, actually do believe that his being beaten up is WRONG, I do NOT believe it is "justice". Two wrongs do not make a right.

Again, don't presume to know what I tell my kids Slim.

Frankly, my opinion is that to tell my son that is idiotic but that's just me. [/color]

Actually, Slim the biggest bullies tend to be kids who have exactly the kind of discipline at home that you preach about here; kids who get beaten up by their parents evrytime they get in trouble at school.

Again, I say it because I think it bears repeating: Bullying kids tend to be the ones who are being bullied within their family- either mentally or physically. They are desperate for wanting to feel in control in at least one aspect of their lives. Since they do not have that at home they will try to regain it somewhere else and in the only way taught to them by their parents- through violence.

BTW, I'm done with this topic.

Healthy discussion is one thing. Being condescending to others and disrespectfully trying to shove your words and opinions into their mouths, is quite another.

So, how DO you teach kids about violence? Because it is real, and it does exist.

And more importantly, how do you teach them to deal with violence? Because whether you're aware of it or not, and you obviously are as you posted a few threads back about the war in your home country, people do have to deal with violence in some way or another. God willing, none of us will have to (not everyone has to experience it first-hand) but when and if we do, what is the appropriate action to take? Not everyone can move away, or run, or do anything to avoid it. There are instances where it is imminent. What should we do then?

Since you're telling me I don't know what you tell your kids, I'm presuming you tell them something. What? If it's none of my business, fine. What should I tell my future children and those I come in contact with? What is going to make society a better place in response to violence? Someone's kids are going to have to deal with violence... what if it's yours? Or, what if it's mine?

I've already stated numerous times on this thread what we should be telling children. We should be telling them when and how to use violence, and that violent actions have severe consequences. (And to further support my position, I've stated that we need to hold older people more accountable for their actions.) Nowhere have I said anyone should be a bully, especially to their kids. I do agree with you that kids who are bullied at home become bullies at school, that's a widely-known fact. What I do not agree with is the thought that violence should not be a part of someone's upbringing. Violence exists in the world, so why should it not exist in the home? (To clarify, I'm not saying kids should be beaten for taking their sister's crayon. What I am saying is that when time out doesn't work, or they don't get the message that what they're doing is wrong, sometimes physically punishing a child (like a swat on the back-side) is far more effective. And that, down the road, also connects the thought that when the brain makes an error in judgement, sometimes it's the body that pays.) Not true? Please retort!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

[You assuming that the reason I or someone else do not say something along those lines to his mom is just completely limited. You, Slim do NOT know why I would never say anything like that so please do not presume. I, actually do believe that his being beaten up is WRONG, I do NOT believe it is "justice". Two wrongs do not make a right.

Again, don't presume to know what I tell my kids Slim.

Frankly, my opinion is that to tell my son that is idiotic but that's just me. [/color]

Actually, Slim the biggest bullies tend to be kids who have exactly the kind of discipline at home that you preach about here; kids who get beaten up by their parents evrytime they get in trouble at school.

Again, I say it because I think it bears repeating: Bullying kids tend to be the ones who are being bullied within their family- either mentally or physically. They are desperate for wanting to feel in control in at least one aspect of their lives. Since they do not have that at home they will try to regain it somewhere else and in the only way taught to them by their parents- through violence.

BTW, I'm done with this topic.

Healthy discussion is one thing. Being condescending to others and disrespectfully trying to shove your words and opinions into their mouths, is quite another.

So, how DO you teach kids about violence? Because it is real, and it does exist.

And more importantly, how do you teach them to deal with violence? Because whether you're aware of it or not, and you obviously are as you posted a few threads back about the war in your home country, people do have to deal with violence in some way or another. God willing, none of us will have to (not everyone has to experience it first-hand) but when and if we do, what is the appropriate action to take? Not everyone can move away, or run, or do anything to avoid it. There are instances where it is imminent. What should we do then?

Since you're telling me I don't know what you tell your kids, I'm presuming you tell them something. What? If it's none of my business, fine. What should I tell my future children and those I come in contact with? What is going to make society a better place in response to violence? Someone's kids are going to have to deal with violence... what if it's yours? Or, what if it's mine?

I've already stated numerous times on this thread what we should be telling children. We should be telling them when and how to use violence, and that violent actions have severe consequences. (And to further support my position, I've stated that we need to hold older people more accountable for their actions.) Nowhere have I said anyone should be a bully, especially to their kids. I do agree with you that kids who are bullied at home become bullies at school, that's a widely-known fact. What I do not agree with is the thought that violence should not be a part of someone's upbringing. Violence exists in the world, so why should it not exist in the home? (To clarify, I'm not saying kids should be beaten for taking their sister's crayon. What I am saying is that when time out doesn't work, or they don't get the message that what they're doing is wrong, sometimes physically punishing a child (like a swat on the back-side) is far more effective. And that, down the road, also connects the thought that when the brain makes an error in judgement, sometimes it's the body that pays.) Not true? Please retort!

As I said before - good luck contextualising violence to young children with a more or less black and white view of the world. Perhaps that's a question best answered by someone who actually knows something about child development (which is a fairly big field of study in itself), but personally while you can teach young children to be responsible and organised I doubt you can "teach" them anything useful about violence. Again telling a child to "hit a bully on the nose" is not "teaching", and "telling" is vastly different to "doing".

Again - equating "smacking down" a school bully is in any way similar to "dealing with" a man gunman is an extremely tenuous connection. Moreover, find me a martial arts teacher who won't tell you that its very difficult, if not impossible, to defend against someone wielding a knife (let alone a gun) and your best bet in such a situation is get away from them (by any means necessary).

[slim 1,525]

Moreover, find me a martial arts teacher who won't tell you that its very difficult, if not impossible, to defend against someone wielding a knife (let alone a gun) and your best bet in such a situation is get away from them (by any means necessary).

Agreed 100%. Well, with the "get away from them part." I do believe it's possible to defend yourself, but I won't argue that right now. But what do we do in that situation where it's impossible to "get away?" Like, death is coming for you in literally one second?

I know we can't say (with honesty) "I would do this, or I would do that" because we don't know unless we've been there. But, I truly believe that if we, as Americans, could change our mentality to one where we're told to "fight back" instead of "getting away" when death is knocking on our door, we could greatly increase our odds of survival in a violent incident.

[Alex+R 0]

And that's how the thread ended, right folks?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Moreover, find me a martial arts teacher who won't tell you that its very difficult, if not impossible, to defend against someone wielding a knife (let alone a gun) and your best bet in such a situation is get away from them (by any means necessary).

Agreed 100%. Well, with the "get away from them part." I do believe it's possible to defend yourself, but I won't argue that right now. But what do we do in that situation where it's impossible to "get away?" Like, death is coming for you in literally one second?

I know we can't say (with honesty) "I would do this, or I would do that" because we don't know unless we've been there. But, I truly believe that if we, as Americans, could change our mentality to one where we're told to "fight back" instead of "getting away" when death is knocking on our door, we could greatly increase our odds of survival in a violent incident.

I'm not sure that's possible. That's not to say if someone is in position with my "back to the wall" that they would let themselves be victimised. The only thing I can say with any honesty here is that I really don't know what I would do or how I would react.

A lot of it depends on how physical you are - a 100lb woman is only ever going to have an outside chance of "beating" a guy twice her size and weight so geting away would seem a prudent choice. Still given that much of this relies of primitive instinct I'm not sure its really honest to speculate about 'would-haves' or 'could-haves'.

[slim 1,525]

The thread's been over for a while. There were three, one dropped out yesterday, and now there are only two.

Hats off to erekose, who even though does not agree with me.... keeps on posting. That's what makes this forum great. It's nice to be able to debate someone without getting mud slung all over a thread or having the popcorn pile up so high it's impossible to see the words. I truly enjoy debating people with rational, intelligent things to say, even if their viewpoints differ from mine.

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

A lot of it depends on how physical you are - a 100lb woman is only ever going to have an outside chance of "beating" a guy twice her size and weight so geting away would seem a prudent choice. Still given that much of this relies of primitive instinct I'm not sure its really honest to speculate about 'would-haves' or 'could-haves'.

or maybe she'll just get a cch too

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

A lot of it depends on how physical you are - a 100lb woman is only ever going to have an outside chance of "beating" a guy twice her size and weight so geting away would seem a prudent choice. Still given that much of this relies of primitive instinct I'm not sure its really honest to speculate about 'would-haves' or 'could-haves'.

or maybe she'll just get a cch too

Take my wife as an example. She flies all over the country for work - cch would be impractical for her not only because of the disparity in legalities across the different states, but for the main reason that she just doesn't want to own a gun.

[slim 1,525]

A lot of it depends on how physical you are - a 100lb woman is only ever going to have an outside chance of "beating" a guy twice her size and weight so geting away would seem a prudent choice. Still given that much of this relies of primitive instinct I'm not sure its really honest to speculate about 'would-haves' or 'could-haves'.

or maybe she'll just get a cch too

Which would be a completely justified use of a handgun.

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

A lot of it depends on how physical you are - a 100lb woman is only ever going to have an outside chance of "beating" a guy twice her size and weight so geting away would seem a prudent choice. Still given that much of this relies of primitive instinct I'm not sure its really honest to speculate about 'would-haves' or 'could-haves'.

or maybe she'll just get a cch too

Take my wife as an example. She flies all over the country for work - cch would be impractical for her not only because of the disparity in legalities across the different states, but for the main reason that she just doesn't want to own a gun.

that's entirely her choice. yes, laws vary and that is a pain. along with that is the issue of transporting such on a plane.

A lot of it depends on how physical you are - a 100lb woman is only ever going to have an outside chance of "beating" a guy twice her size and weight so geting away would seem a prudent choice. Still given that much of this relies of primitive instinct I'm not sure its really honest to speculate about 'would-haves' or 'could-haves'.

or maybe she'll just get a cch too

Which would be a completely justified use of a handgun.

that's something i've never understood. the ones most likely to be victimized physically are women, and not too many seem to be keen on having one.