The wussifying of America

[ivona 0]

You must've missed the points in my posts. "Necessary violence." Not, using violence as the answer to everything annoying. Violent actions have very real consequences, and those also need to be taught.

Should you ever become a parent, you will be forced (I say forced because you will be dealing first hand with things you are not even willing to consider in your discussion here) to realize that what's "necessary" or even "appropriate" is very hard to teach a child or even a teenanger....in a mind of a 2yo. someone taking their crayon is the only thing relevant in the moment, nothing else matters except getting that crayon BACK!!! You will also see that trying to resolve arguments between children with the whole "who did what to whom first" approach (most times you can't know, unless it was an outright bullying situation and those aren't as common) will get you in an assylum pretty soon.

The ability to make a decision on when is violence necessary requires wisdom and taking responsibilty for your own actions. Most people posess the ability to learn these things, but very few have the will to actually do so.

Making such sweeping generalizations as you continue to make throughout this thread is very naive to say the least, not to mention condescending and insulting. In light of the recent events, it is also downright tacky.

Edited April 27, 2007 by ivona

[pedroh 21]

You must've missed the points in my posts. "Necessary violence." Not, using violence as the answer to everything annoying. Violent actions have very real consequences, and those also need to be taught.

Should you ever become a parent, you will be forced (I say forced because you will be dealing first hand with things you are not even willing to consider in your discussion here) to realize that what's "necessary" or even "appropriate" is very hard to teach a child or even a teenanger....

The ability to make a decision on when is violence necessary requires wisdom and taking responsibilty for your own actions. Most people posess the ability to learn these things, but very few have the will to actually do so.

Making such sweeping generalizations as you continue to make throughout this thread is very naive to say the least, not to mention condescending and insulting. In light of the recent events, it is also downright tacky.

I don't think it's that hard, is just the American trend of making teenagers less responsible for their actions.. now they're 18 and they still treated like kids..

[pedroh 21]

I think I get something bout what Slim says.. when I hear stories bout people being beaten, or assaulted while on the public transport, and they just walk away (yea sometines they get caught and stuff), i'm like #######? they can just walk away like thaT? why people don't do something?...

while in Mexico for example, every week there was a criminal lynched or beaten because he was stupid enough to get to a public transport bus with a gun and try to rob the passengers, noone gets killed, or beaten, except the thief.. no im not saying let's lynch da criminals.. but, I haven't seen an article like that in the police section round here..

[ivona 0]

It doesn't matter if its American teenagers or French or whatever. Teenagers are teenagers, not kids not adults in a VERY f*cked up time in their lives....

They see the situations differently.

Hell, adults see situations differently. "Truth" of the situation depends on your perception of reality.

But children and teens especially see the world differently, and tend to be rather egocentric in their perceptions.

Of course, the key is consistency- if your kids realize that every time some crayon like situation arises they will both be separated and in trouble until they learn to play together, they will eventually learn that they better just find a different way of dealing with things, but it still requires patience, consistency and the willingness to do it over and over again for years....

[Scott & Lai 12]

Of course, the key is consistency- if your kids realize that every time some crayon like situation arises they will both be separated and in trouble until they learn to play together, they will eventually learn that they better just find a different way of dealing with things, but it still requires patience, consistency and the willingness to do it over and over again for years....[/color]

Is the reason that kids are are bullied that they haven't "learned to play together," or that it is the nature of bullies to prey on the weak?

I remember as a kid seeing both sides in a fight between bullies and victims being treated the same (suspending both, etc.), and felt that the adults were much more interested in peace than in justice.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Scott & Lai

[Scott & Lai 12]

Of course, the key is consistency- if your kids realize that every time some crayon like situation arises they will both be separated and in trouble until they learn to play together, they will eventually learn that they better just find a different way of dealing with things, but it still requires patience, consistency and the willingness to do it over and over again for years....[/color]

Is the reason that kids are are bullied that they haven't "learned to play together," or that it is the nature of bullies to prey on the weak?

I remember as a kid seeing both sides in a fight between bullies and victims being treated the same (suspending both, etc.), and felt that the adults were much more interested in peace than in justice.

The same thinking is behind laws requiring people to retreat from attackers, instead of using armed resistance, unless there is no other alternative.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Of course, the key is consistency- if your kids realize that every time some crayon like situation arises they will both be separated and in trouble until they learn to play together, they will eventually learn that they better just find a different way of dealing with things, but it still requires patience, consistency and the willingness to do it over and over again for years....[/color]

Is the reason that kids are are bullied that they haven't "learned to play together," or that it is the nature of bullies to prey on the weak?

I remember as a kid seeing both sides in a fight between bullies and victims being treated the same (suspending both, etc.), and felt that the adults were much more interested in peace than in justice.

Perhaps because the rules that apply to children are not the same as those that apply to adults - because teachers have a responsibility to all of the kids in their care. Including the problem ones.

Again, not having kids I'm not sure I feel comfortable making blanket statements about how they should be raised. Clearly Slim feels different.

[homesick_american 1]

And, I'm assuming that if they would've been conditioned to "fight" instead of "flee" when faced with imminent violent death, that perhaps more of them would've survived. All of my arguments on here are based on the assumption that if the conditioned response of Americans were to change, more Americans (and since others have added "civilized" societies, we'll go ahead and add them here too) would survive.

For the record... I'm 28 with no kids. Surprised? (I didn't think so.)

I'm not surprised at all. The sort of naivete that leads to blaming the victim seems to be more common amongst the young!

Tell me...what if you had a young child, and god forbid he/she was sexually assaulted...would you blame him/her for becoming a victim because he/she didn't fight back?

No, because they're a young child. But, if my wife or teenage daughter (or son for that matter) were to be sexually assaulted, then I would hope that they would at least fight to the point of being rendered unconscious before they were sexually assaulted.

That's the "mentality" that we need to transition to. A would-be rapist or molester, or whatever, would be less apt to commit a crime knowing they're going to get their butt-kicked in the process. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen. It's the fight back mentality that we as Americans lack that can be changed by changing our minds about what is and what is not acceptable violence.

For their sake, I hope you change your mind about that before you have kids. It's that sort of thinking that makes children afraid to talk to their parents about what happened to them...because they think they're going to be blamed. A lot of childhood sexual abuse survivors end up killing themselves instead. But hey...maybe they deserve to die because they didn't fight back, right?

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

It's a lost cause Slim. "it's wrong to defend yourself" People are so liberal they would let their own family be attacked as not to interfere with the 'free will' of the attacker. It's sad. I'm going to teach my kids how to use a gun and defend themselves. Just like my family taught me.

[homesick_american 1]

It's a lost cause Slim. "it's wrong to defend yourself" People are so liberal they would let their own family be attacked as not to interfere with the 'free will' of the attacker. It's sad. I'm going to teach my kids how to use a gun and defend themselves. Just like my family taught me.

Oh please. There is a difference between rolling over and recognizing that there is such a thing as a blameless victim.

[pedroh 21]

It's a lost cause Slim. "it's wrong to defend yourself" People are so liberal they would let their own family be attacked as not to interfere with the 'free will' of the attacker. It's sad. I'm going to teach my kids how to use a gun and defend themselves. Just like my family taught me.

same thing... probly not the whole gun thing (cuz i dont have one lol).. but hell yeah, to defend themselves.. not to get punched by some arsehole and say 'oh did u see that guy who punched me'..

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It's a lost cause Slim. "it's wrong to defend yourself" People are so liberal they would let their own family be attacked as not to interfere with the 'free will' of the attacker. It's sad. I'm going to teach my kids how to use a gun and defend themselves. Just like my family taught me.

I think you've got your head up your butt on this one - assuming you actually read the spurious and contradictory nonsense that he's advocating. Who is saying "don't defend yourself"? I don't think anyone is or has, just that "changing social mentalities" is not really achievable.

Aside from the implication he's making that the body counts in incidents like VA Tech are so high because the people involved are "soft" and "dont do enough", which is naive at best, insulting at worst - he suggests the answer lies in teaching* kids to contextualise violence at an early age, which is achievable... how...? More to the point, what we're really talking about here is how to teach people not to be afraid. Got a solution for that one?

*Teaching BTW involves either "instruction and repitition" or "direct example".

What part of Slim's argument do you agree with exactly...? For clarification purposes?

It's a lost cause Slim. "it's wrong to defend yourself" People are so liberal they would let their own family be attacked as not to interfere with the 'free will' of the attacker. It's sad. I'm going to teach my kids how to use a gun and defend themselves. Just like my family taught me.

same thing... probly not the whole gun thing (cuz i dont have one lol).. but hell yeah, to defend themselves.. not to get punched by some arsehole and say 'oh did u see that guy who punched me'..

I'm not sure that's being advocated. I will say however that blanket statements about "how to make society better" are usually rather half-baked.

Edited April 27, 2007 by erekose

[Alex+R 0]

It's a lost cause Slim. "it's wrong to defend yourself" People are so liberal they would let their own family be attacked as not to interfere with the 'free will' of the attacker. It's sad. I'm going to teach my kids how to use a gun and defend themselves. Just like my family taught me.

Oops. Someone didn't read the thread or anything anyone said. I guess then someone would have realized that nobody argued that nonexistent viewpoint.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It's a lost cause Slim. "it's wrong to defend yourself" People are so liberal they would let their own family be attacked as not to interfere with the 'free will' of the attacker. It's sad. I'm going to teach my kids how to use a gun and defend themselves. Just like my family taught me.

Oops. Someone didn't read the thread or anything anyone said. I guess then someone would have realized that nobody argued that nonexistent viewpoint.

Agreed I guess its easy to claim that someone doesn't have an opinion when they've not read anything thats been said.

[Alex+R 0]

nm

Edited April 27, 2007 by Alex+R