The wussifying of America

[almaty 19]

Also, the assertation that there weren't heroic steps taken by many at VA Tech is wrong and offensive.

And its there whether he chooses to recognise the fact or not.

total agreement sister lisa...and brother slim...life is not a movie.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

What if as you're sitting at the dinner table carving the christmas turkey a gang of armed robbers invade your house - do you have a plan for that? What about when you're sitting at the lights and there's a car next to you with tinted windows. Should you pull the gun out of the glovebox and hold it in your lap in case they are gangbangers out for a jolly? You can anticipate a madman about as much as you can expect to be struck by lightning. Is it possible? Sure - but I'm not going wear rubber boots everyday just on the offchance...

I believe this was the most hilarious paragraph you ever wrote.

I second that. I haven't been following this thread but just caught this one.

[MaRob 0]

I think there should be some middle ground here. No I don't think we should condition our kids to hit first and ask questions later, nor do I think we should teach kids to run away at the first sign of trouble. FOR ME when that fight happened, I knew I was going to get my butt kicked...didn't even contemplate the fact that I would win, hah. But the bottom line is that I didn't run, because even if I were going to have my butt kicked, I was ready to stand up for myself and for everyone else who was bothered by that creature. And to teach kids that hey...sometimes it's scary and sometimes it won't work out, but never be afraid to stand up for yourself....well I think that can't be a bad thing.

Again, it sounds like I'm straddling a fence here, but we're really having two different discussions as I feel this has nothing to do with VA Tech whatsoever. There were MANY heroes that day and to 'armchair QB' as someone else mentioned...when none of us were there, none of us experienced what they did, none of us really KNOW how we'd react...well it seems short sighted and really quite wrong.

I really agree with this... its not about violence alone... I think its coupling it with wisdom and strength of moral character, which can be taught to kids.. its not an unachievable goal or pipe dream.

[Caladan 19]

Also, the assertation that there weren't heroic steps taken by many at VA Tech is wrong and offensive.

And its there whether he chooses to recognise the fact or not.

It's like arguing with the f*cking wall, actually.

No one's saying the proper response is to whine and hide or not to hit bullies back; we're just saying that the proper response can vary depending on what your options are and that your options aren't just between 'rush the gunman' and 'cry like a little titty baby'. I don't think we do teach kids never to fight back. It's nice little talk-radio meme, but kids still get into fights in schools and scrap with the neighborhood kids.

And that there's no way to get students to be a little phalanx of gunman-chargers absent a very severe societal change; just saying 'fight back, be strong' won't cut it. Certainly movies and TV shows with heroic violence didn't translate into anyone saving the day; people being smart enough to barricade the door or brave enough to jump out of a second-story window did save many lives.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Also, the assertation that there weren't heroic steps taken by many at VA Tech is wrong and offensive.

And its there whether he chooses to recognise the fact or not.

It's like arguing with the f*cking wall, actually.

No one's saying the proper response is to whine and hide or not to hit bullies back; we're just saying that the proper response can vary depending on what your options are and that your options aren't just between 'rush the gunman' and 'cry like a little titty baby'. I don't think we do teach kids never to fight back. It's nice little talk-radio meme, but kids still get into fights in schools and scrap with the neighborhood kids.

And that there's no way to get students to be a little phalanx of gunman-chargers absent a very severe societal change; just saying 'fight back, be strong' won't cut it. Certainly movies and TV shows with heroic violence didn't translate into anyone saving the day; people being smart enough to barricade the door or brave enough to jump out of a second-story window did save many lives.

I agree that the point being made sounds rather "survival of the fittest" to me. Either its not being explained properly (which I doubt) or its just a very bad argument. Certainly it doesn't seem to be justified beyond the original set of assumptions about "soft society". I guess what we need is a good society-destroying apocalypse to "toughen everyone up"

[slim 1,525]

No. And, no. We don't need an apocalypse to "toughen everyone up". What we need is for people to stop fearing that violent reactions will get them into more trouble than non-violent actions.

In a situation where it's live or die, to react non-violently is going to more often than not, lead to death. We as a "soft society" applaud those who barricade a door or jump out of a window, but we look upon those that beat a thief or worse as "violent criminals" themselves. That mentality needs to change.

I never argued in any of my posts that anyone in VA did something wrong or that there were no heroes there. And, I never said "this is what I would do." I did say several times, "this is what SHOULD be done". That's not hindsight, that's not armchair QBing, that's not anything to degrade the reality or severity of the situation(s). That is accepting an event for what it is and proposing that by changing a "soft" or "wussy" mentality that we've become accustomed to in our society, possibly changing the outcome the next time it happens.

"How dare you say those people weren't brave or did something wrong, or they weren't heroes. You would $#!T your pants if you would've been there." You're probably right. But, if we would all have the mentality that losing 30+ people to a lone gunman is unacceptable, instead of lauding some of the fallen as heroes and mourning the rest, an event such as this would not happen "next time." But, since we live in a "soft society" of "wussies" then we'll be back in front of the TV soaking up "hero stories" about those that barricaded a door or jumped from a fourth-floor window instead of fighting (actively fighting) back.

Argue whatever you want.... it all boils down to a change in mentality. There are obviously people on this thread that get what I'm saying and others that don't. It's just sad that they don't, because they and their children are also our future. Doesn't really matter much I guess, because when the Chinese (or Indians, or insert name of country that's going to be able to kick our @$$ in the next 50 years) invade, (they're not wussies!) we'll "wait until they stop killing people, then talk it out with them." I just hope I'm not one of the ones killed while we're "waiting to talk."

[Fandango 1,439]

And the tragic fact that comes along with that is when a single individual armed with handguns attacks a group of unarmed people, he's able to kill 33 of them without facing any resistance what-so-ever.

________________________________________________

If just one of those students would've rushed the gunman, perhaps another would've helped. Then another, then another, then another, and before you know it, instead of 33 dead, we have 3. The three that first rushed the gunman and died saving the rest of their class. The three that will be remembered as heroes... not victims.

The relating of the VA Tech massacre in a thread called 'the wussification of America' certainly does imply that you're calling most of the victims 'wusses'. And the last bit in red contradicts itself anyways.

Life is not a Die Hard movie, and you shouldn't judge those who died as wusses.

[ivona 0]

Argue whatever you want.... it all boils down to a change in mentality. There are obviously people on this thread that get what I'm saying and others that don't. It's just sad that they don't, because they and their children are also our future. Doesn't really matter much I guess, because when the Chinese (or Indians, or insert name of country that's going to be able to kick our @$$ in the next 50 years) invade, (they're not wussies!) we'll "wait until they stop killing people, then talk it out with them." I just hope I'm not one of the ones killed while we're "waiting to talk."

Try opening your mind, you might find it refreshing....

You keep saying the same thing over and over and over again...like banging your head against a brick wall, you can have your opinion no one says differently but if you wanted to NOT hear different opinions (which is what a healthy discussion is all about) you should have had this thread locked after your original post

Edited April 25, 2007 by ivona

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And the tragic fact that comes along with that is when a single individual armed with handguns attacks a group of unarmed people, he's able to kill 33 of them without facing any resistance what-so-ever.

________________________________________________

If just one of those students would've rushed the gunman, perhaps another would've helped. Then another, then another, then another, and before you know it, instead of 33 dead, we have 3. The three that first rushed the gunman and died saving the rest of their class. The three that will be remembered as heroes... not victims.

The relating of the VA Tech massacre in a thread called 'the wussification of America' certainly does imply that you're calling most of the victims 'wusses'. And the last bit in red contradicts itself anyways.

Life is not a Die Hard movie, and you shouldn't judge those who died as wusses.

Exactly my thoughts.

Slim - considering that the topic keeps coming back to the VA shooting, and indeed you referencing the incident as an example to back up your point really does create fairly concrete implication of meaning - regardless of any disclaimers you put up to say otherwise.

Again I'm not sure you're on solid ground with the assumption that people need to "stop fearing that violent reactions will get them into more trouble than non-violent actions". I really don't see that - at all. In a situation like the one in Virginia, a person isn't going to be discouraged by the fear of being subject to legal action, they're scared period. We're talking primal fear here - not some sort of vague anxiety about a court summons.

Moreover, saying we should "change mentalities" is all well and good, but in a practical sense how do you see this being achieved?

[mawilson 2,133]

Bullying is not tolerated and children are taught that standing up to bullies by exposing their

controlling behaviour to an adult who can properly deal with the situation is the right way to go.

Except the "tattletale" approach doesn't work and often makes things worse.

All that happens is that you make them angrier, and they will only seek later

to make you pay for telling on them and getting them in trouble.

You have to stand up to the bully and physically kick their ####### if you can,

or get one of your mates to do it. You have to send a strong message:

"Don't mess with me, or you WILL get hurt."

[mawilson 2,133]

Ok, true, the playground is all about survival

Well it depends on the age group we're talking about, but school playgrounds do have have a social structure. A structure that is hierarchical in nature and which is usually enforced with violence.

Doesn't childhood suck?

How's adulthood any different?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Ok, true, the playground is all about survival

Well it depends on the age group we're talking about, but school playgrounds do have have a social structure. A structure that is hierarchical in nature and which is usually enforced with violence.

Doesn't childhood suck?

How's adulthood any different?

Because when an adult looks into a mirror they see all they'll ever be

[Mirorgate 0]

Life is not a Die Hard movie, and you shouldn't judge those who died as wusses.

"yippie kiyay mother fu'er"

[Peikko 1,575]

The fact that bullies can operate is precisely because they rely on the fact that most kids will be too scared to tell an adult. Telling a teacher that an older and stronger kid is beating up on you is not tattletale and it's rather playing into the hands of bullies to think so...or do you agree with the 'it toughens them up' approach of those chav mothers in the UK?

[slim 1,525]

The fact that bullies can operate is precisely because they rely on the fact that most kids will be too scared to tell an adult.

This is also why we have crime.

A change in mentality (by enforcing strong viloent reactions to violent provocation from an early age and by lifting the fear of prosecution in defense of self or others at a later age) is the start in a change.

In a violent situation where a person is taking advantage of another person, it is precisely the advantage that needs to be overturned. To do that without opposing violent reactions is non-effective. In a situation of impending death, to do nothing only assists the person with the advantage.

If criminals, bullies, suicidal hijackers, or madmen on shooting rampages were to attempt their crimes on those who were not too scared to react violently and were, moreover, "conditioned" to react violently, instances of large casualites from a single violent crime incident would be drastically reduced.

How do we "condition" people to react violently when faced with violence? We start by teaching them the "proper" way to react to violence when they're younger, and we become a less lawsuit-happy culture as adults. We teach respect for authority and proper behavior but we also teach the "proper" ways to deal with things we find unacceptable. Tattle on someone? Of course, if that will gain the desired results. But if the only way to get someone to stop picking on you is to kick them in the shin, or hit them over the head with a board, then that's what it takes. Compare and contrast that with an extremely higher level of violence such as a shooting rampage. Will "telling someone" stop you from getting shot? It may, if you're in the next room or you can phone 9-1-1 before the shooter gets to you. But, taking swift, decisive action against the shooter may be the better option. With proper "conditioning" we can achieve a society where that is possible. If that's possible, mass casualty incidents will be drastically fewer.