The wussifying of America

[Peikko 1,575]

Ok, true, the playground is all about survival

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Ok, true, the playground is all about survival

Well it depends on the age group we're talking about, but school playgrounds do have have a social structure. A structure that is hierarchical in nature and which is usually enforced with violence.

[Peikko 1,575]

Honestly, violence wasn't my experience. Hierarchy was enforced with manipulative tactics. Well, at primary school anyway. Secondary school, I wasn't aware of any bullying, although I guess it must have been around. Fights were incredibly rare though.

[Alex+R 0]

Ok, true, the playground is all about survival

Well it depends on the age group we're talking about, but school playgrounds do have have a social structure. A structure that is hierarchical in nature and which is usually enforced with violence.

Doesn't childhood suck?

[Fandango 1,439]

I don't think any teacher/playground assistant wants to spend their time adjudicating playground violence. Bullying is not tolerated and children are taught that standing up to bullies by exposing their controlling behaviour to an adult who can properly deal with the situation is the right way to go. It takes at least as much courage to go down this route as to hit back. Teachers need to know who the bullies are, they don't need the playground to become a big game of survival of the fittest. I am really quite suprised that anyone thinks this makes some kind of sense.

If these comments were in response to my story, the fight came after...oh about 6 years, multiple suspensions of this student, many complaints by multiple parents & again was not started by me. And of course, there were no teachers around at all for the big 'confrontation'...so what to do then? Stand there and get beat to sh!t? In a perfect world, go get a teacher, yeah that's great. I was a prissy cheerleader...not some brute just gagging for a fight at all.

'exposing the bully's controlling behavior to an adult who can properly deal with the situation' sounds great in a textbook, but imo it's fooling yourself to think this always works. Many times, it only antagonizes the bully to lash out more later.

I don't have all the right answers...obviously the world has changed. Guns were a rare if not non-existant problem when I was a kid. Things didn't seem so...complicated. Hell, iirc there wasn't even such a thing as ADD back then. But bullying IS a problem not always sorted by 'go to a teacher'

I'm not endorsing the original post as it relates to the recent tragedies in the news, btw.

ETA: I was 14, not 13.

Edited April 24, 2007 by LisaD

[Scott & Lai 12]

I think that it can be quantified. When I was growing up, and getting picked on in the school yard (like every other kid on earth), the advice from my father was quite simple.

Get up, look the bully in the eye, and use your little finger to push him over. (It took some practice to learn how to do this.) I didn't really have problems with bullies after that. I was probably 6 years old. My grandmother thought it was best punch them out. She was a bit less subtle. This wasn't the sort of thing we got in much trouble for in school back then (and this was only 20-odd years ago in Massachusetts of all places).

Things seem much different now. I don't see many parents (who are my age now) teaching their kids to stand up for themselves.

The message seems to be more along the lines of what my Mom would have said - "Run and find a teacher or cop or something." (Bad advice for 6 year olds. You look like a wimp and get picked on much worse the next time.)

I have to admit I laughed at the part about your grandmother... but that is what my opinion is on the subject as well... generally, society as a whole, kids and adults, are being brainwashed to not stand up for themselves... "its not ok to hit back." I believe that feeds into a victim mentality. Now I'm not saying teach our kids to fight anything and everything that comes along, throwing away common sense... but maybe developing a character in our kids that combines wisdom and courage... to look for ways out, do whatever possible to save others & ourselves, and if an opportunity opens to take out the threat, that we would have the courage to do so. I don't think it is possible to develop that character if we are always telling them to run from the problem.

In one of my junior high school classes, there was a kid sitting in front of me who felt it was his calling in life to torment me. He kept turning around in his chair and poking at me with his pencil and shaking my desk. I definitely wasn't the strong courageous type, and usually would hope that if I just ignored the bullies, they'd leave me alone. This creature, though, wasn't quiting, and I'd had enough of his bullsh!t. I got up and gave him a swift kick in the shin. The teacher sent both of us to the administration office. As she wrote my referral, she said she would not have violence in her classroom; she didn't care who started it, violence was violence in her eyes. Of course, if she had stopped the idiot the moment he started, I wouldn't have needed to defend myself.

When I'd told the counselor what happened, however, he said, "You should have kicked him harder!" I think the opposite responses of the teacher and the counselor are part of what Slim is getting at. We seem to be moving more towards the teacher's "Violence begets violence...all violence is wrong" mentality, and away from the counselor's "confronting evil with whatever is necessary to stop it" mentality.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think that it can be quantified. When I was growing up, and getting picked on in the school yard (like every other kid on earth), the advice from my father was quite simple.

Get up, look the bully in the eye, and use your little finger to push him over. (It took some practice to learn how to do this.) I didn't really have problems with bullies after that. I was probably 6 years old. My grandmother thought it was best punch them out. She was a bit less subtle. This wasn't the sort of thing we got in much trouble for in school back then (and this was only 20-odd years ago in Massachusetts of all places).

Things seem much different now. I don't see many parents (who are my age now) teaching their kids to stand up for themselves.

The message seems to be more along the lines of what my Mom would have said - "Run and find a teacher or cop or something." (Bad advice for 6 year olds. You look like a wimp and get picked on much worse the next time.)

I have to admit I laughed at the part about your grandmother... but that is what my opinion is on the subject as well... generally, society as a whole, kids and adults, are being brainwashed to not stand up for themselves... "its not ok to hit back." I believe that feeds into a victim mentality. Now I'm not saying teach our kids to fight anything and everything that comes along, throwing away common sense... but maybe developing a character in our kids that combines wisdom and courage... to look for ways out, do whatever possible to save others & ourselves, and if an opportunity opens to take out the threat, that we would have the courage to do so. I don't think it is possible to develop that character if we are always telling them to run from the problem.

In one of my junior high school classes, there was a kid sitting in front of me who felt it was his calling in life to torment me. He kept turning around in his chair and poking at me with his pencil and shaking my desk. I definitely wasn't the strong courageous type, and usually would hope that if I just ignored the bullies, they'd leave me alone. This creature, though, wasn't quiting, and I'd had enough of his bullsh!t. I got up and gave him a swift kick in the shin. The teacher sent both of us to the administration office. As she wrote my referral, she said she would not have violence in her classroom; she didn't care who started it, violence was violence in her eyes. Of course, if she had stopped the idiot the moment he started, I wouldn't have needed to defend myself.

When I'd told the counselor what happened, however, he said, "You should have kicked him harder!" I think the opposite responses of the teacher and the counselor are part of what Slim is getting at. We seem to be moving more towards the teacher's "Violence begets violence...all violence is wrong" mentality, and away from the counselor's "confronting evil with whatever is necessary to stop it" mentality.

You only kicked him? I hit a guy over the head with a wooden board in an art class (after putting up with 6 months of "teasing"). Not only did I not get into trouble for it - but the teacher came back into the room at the point where the guy was trying to retaliate. Needless to say, he got kicked out of the class. I didn't. I was quite proud of that at the time.

I was never a problem student - but I went to a pretty sub-par school. One kid actually started a fist fight with the teacher in a Geography class, which is something you really don't expect to see. To the teacher's credit, after he threw the guy out - he carried on the lesson as normal, though clearly the incident must have shaken him up. That's what goes from living in a Chav town.

[slim 1,525]

You guys are proving my point, and you don't even realize it!

To say kids on a playground should get some sort of violent action against them, (beating from a bully, taunting from a pest, etc.) then instead of returning a violent action back to effectively stop the violence, they should go tell an adult and find a way to "sort it out, without violence," .... what that does is teaches us at an early age to not deal with violence in a violent manner, but moreover, to refrain from it and go tell someone.

That's awesome advice for a 3rd-grader playing tag on a playground in the suburbs. THAT IS HORRIBLE ADVICE FOR A FRESHMAN IN A CLASSROOM WITH A DERANGED, PSYCHO, MADMAN SHOOTING AT EVERYONE.

By "refraining from violence, and "hoping" to tell someone" afterwards, we set ourselves up to be victimized. By "teaching" our kids to loathe violence in any form is also setting them up to be victimized. Remember, incidents like the one that happened to the kids in VA are not like getting hit or kicked for your lunch money. But, if you've been taught from early on that when someone hits or kicks you.... or shoots at you with pistols... in some way or another threatens you with violence, that violent action is not only acceptable, but encouraged, then in situations where you are personally threatened with violent action, you would be more prone to react with equal and opposite violent reactions.

It's the "mentality" that needs to change. If you're saying to yourself right now "I'd never teach my kids to hit someone", then ask yourself, "what are they supposed to do when they face impending violent death? Are they supposed to "wait until it's over, then go tell someone?"

If you're daughter is about to get raped... do you want her to "wait until it's over, then go tell someone?" Or do you want her to kick and scream and do whatever she can to get away?

The fact is, violence is acceptable in certain situations. What's important is not that you're teaching your kids to be violent, but you're teaching them WHEN to be violent. This thread was entitled the wussifying of America because as noted, more and more parents are teaching little Skyler to "don't hit him back, honey." When they should be teaching him to "peacefully deal with the situation if possible... but if that's not an option, kick him so hard that he'll never kick you or anyone else again.... just remember, you can't go around kicking people all the time, and it's not to be used, except as a last resort when all else fails."

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You guys are proving my point, and you don't even realize it!

To say kids on a playground should get some sort of violent action against them, (beating from a bully, taunting from a pest, etc.) then instead of returning a violent action back to effectively stop the violence, they should go tell an adult and find a way to "sort it out, without violence," .... what that does is teaches us at an early age to not deal with violence in a violent manner, but moreover, to refrain from it and go tell someone.

That's awesome advice for a 3rd-grader playing tag on a playground in the suburbs. THAT IS HORRIBLE ADVICE FOR A FRESHMAN IN A CLASSROOM WITH A DERANGED, PSYCHO, MADMAN SHOOTING AT EVERYONE.

By "refraining from violence, and "hoping" to tell someone" afterwards, we set ourselves up to be victimized. By "teaching" our kids to loathe violence in any form is also setting them up to be victimized. Remember, incidents like the one that happened to the kids in VA are not like getting hit or kicked for your lunch money. But, if you've been taught from early on that when someone hits or kicks you.... or shoots at you with pistols... in some way or another threatens you with violence, that violent action is not only acceptable, but encouraged, then in situations where you are personally threatened with violent action, you would be more prone to react with equal and opposite violent reactions.

It's the "mentality" that needs to change. If you're saying to yourself right now "I'd never teach my kids to hit someone", then ask yourself, "what are they supposed to do when they face impending violent death? Are they supposed to "wait until it's over, then go tell someone?"

If you're daughter is about to get raped... do you want her to "wait until it's over, then go tell someone?" Or do you want her to kick and scream and do whatever she can to get away?

The fact is, violence is acceptable in certain situations. What's important is not that you're teaching your kids to be violent, but you're teaching them WHEN to be violent. This thread was entitled the wussifying of America because as noted, more and more parents are teaching little Skyler to "don't hit him back, honey." When they should be teaching him to "peacefully deal with the situation if possible... but if that's not an option, kick him so hard that he'll never kick you or anyone else again.... just remember, you can't go around kicking people all the time, and it's not to be used, except as a last resort when all else fails."

Sigh....

Once again - please explain how you would you change this mentality. And indeed - please explain why you think that the behaviour of people today is somehow different from people from previous generations when it comes to dealing with extreme circumstances.

There is a massive.... HUGE... world of difference to a 5 year old standing up to a playground bully and throwing yourself at a guy who has guns blazing. The similarity is at best - extremely superficial, and I would suggest that faced with someone intent on killing a lot of people with semi-automatic pistols that the bully as well as the bullied would be filling their pants when faced with such a situation. You can't teach someone to deal with something like that...

You keep saying the same thing over and over again - never addressing the fact that the core assumption at the center of your argument is implying exactly what you keep saying you don't mean - that the people involved in the Virginia massacre and incidents like it were lambs to the slaughter because they weren't prepared to take the actions necessary to take down the gunman.

Contrary to what you are trying to present here, you really don't have a very well thought out point - and as others have said it amounts to digging yourself deeper into already pretty deep hole.

Edited April 24, 2007 by erekose

[Fandango 1,439]

You guys are proving my point, and you don't even realize it!

To say kids on a playground should get some sort of violent action against them, (beating from a bully, taunting from a pest, etc.) then instead of returning a violent action back to effectively stop the violence, they should go tell an adult and find a way to "sort it out, without violence," .... what that does is teaches us at an early age to not deal with violence in a violent manner, but moreover, to refrain from it and go tell someone.

That's awesome advice for a 3rd-grader playing tag on a playground in the suburbs. THAT IS HORRIBLE ADVICE FOR A FRESHMAN IN A CLASSROOM WITH A DERANGED, PSYCHO, MADMAN SHOOTING AT EVERYONE.

By "refraining from violence, and "hoping" to tell someone" afterwards, we set ourselves up to be victimized. By "teaching" our kids to loathe violence in any form is also setting them up to be victimized. Remember, incidents like the one that happened to the kids in VA are not like getting hit or kicked for your lunch money. But, if you've been taught from early on that when someone hits or kicks you.... or shoots at you with pistols... in some way or another threatens you with violence, that violent action is not only acceptable, but encouraged, then in situations where you are personally threatened with violent action, you would be more prone to react with equal and opposite violent reactions.

It's the "mentality" that needs to change. If you're saying to yourself right now "I'd never teach my kids to hit someone", then ask yourself, "what are they supposed to do when they face impending violent death? Are they supposed to "wait until it's over, then go tell someone?"

If you're daughter is about to get raped... do you want her to "wait until it's over, then go tell someone?" Or do you want her to kick and scream and do whatever she can to get away?

The fact is, violence is acceptable in certain situations. What's important is not that you're teaching your kids to be violent, but you're teaching them WHEN to be violent. This thread was entitled the wussifying of America because as noted, more and more parents are teaching little Skyler to "don't hit him back, honey." When they should be teaching him to "peacefully deal with the situation if possible... but if that's not an option, kick him so hard that he'll never kick you or anyone else again.... just remember, you can't go around kicking people all the time, and it's not to be used, except as a last resort when all else fails."

Apples and oranges really. A playground fight is not the same thing as impending death. What with the world changing, a playground fight is not just a playground fight anymore. Now we hear all the time of weapons, retribution, etc. Life isn't so simple anymore.

Also, the assertation that there weren't heroic steps taken by many at VA Tech is wrong and offensive.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Also, the assertation that there weren't heroic steps taken by many at VA Tech is wrong and offensive.

And its there whether he chooses to recognise the fact or not.

[ivona 0]

ok, Slim dearie let's take your route shall we...

we should condition kids from early age on to respond violence with violence, let's assume that can be done.

What kind of society does that lead to? You honk the horn at the wrong guy, he comes at you with a gun. A 1st grader gets hit on the playground, he hits the kid back - big fight results......

Society of bullies, and yes that is exactly what it would turn into. Bullies choose the easy way, instead of thought they choose action and usually they lack the capability the accept responsibilty for their actions- as someone who is at the playground of an elementary school every day I do know what I'm talking about...

I would buy more into what you were saying if you looked at peoples behaviour with a bit more objectivity.

The majority of society are irresponsible fools who sincerely lack the will to take responsibilty for their actions, and I will also venture to say that most people lack the perceptivness to determine when is violence potentially neccesarry and when there ARE other options to be used before using violence...

[Fandango 1,439]

I think there should be some middle ground here. No I don't think we should condition our kids to hit first and ask questions later, nor do I think we should teach kids to run away at the first sign of trouble. FOR ME when that fight happened, I knew I was going to get my butt kicked...didn't even contemplate the fact that I would win, hah. But the bottom line is that I didn't run, because even if I were going to have my butt kicked, I was ready to stand up for myself and for everyone else who was bothered by that creature. And to teach kids that hey...sometimes it's scary and sometimes it won't work out, but never be afraid to stand up for yourself....well I think that can't be a bad thing.

Again, it sounds like I'm straddling a fence here, but we're really having two different discussions as I feel this has nothing to do with VA Tech whatsoever. There were MANY heroes that day and to 'armchair QB' as someone else mentioned...when none of us were there, none of us experienced what they did, none of us really KNOW how we'd react...well it seems short sighted and really quite wrong.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Perhaps we should just teach people not to be violent to begin with. Its about as achievable

[lisaf 0]

You keep saying what they should have done. Sorry, but you can't say that because you weren't there. Again, YOU WERE NOT THERE. It's easy to be an 'armchair QB' and say everyone should have charged him.

good post.

Most people rarely experience any more violence than what they see on TV. I can watch the most violent rubbish (fiction)and not even flinch. Yet I hear the smack of flesh in a fistfight and feel sick. Worse is the time I heard a theif being beaten to death by a mob with nothing more than planks of wood .

Ok so im a female, maybe my programming is different but Ill let you know can happen when faced with violence.

When up close ( gun in the face, has happened twice) absolutely NOTHING, You feel your entrails freeze, then sink to your feet, which cannot move. You have no legs either. You stand there with your mouth hanging open while every fibre of your being says run, you cant.

When violence is impending... ie. bombs ( happened during a military coup taking place, ) an AK47 fight outside my house ( police squashing an uprising) all that you can think is about RUNNING or getting yourself well hidden or somehwere safe.

Now had it turned into a fight or die decision, I dont know what I would have done??? Luckily in my case the gun in the face incident did not escalate, but all these posers in the media this last week, " well why didnt they do this" or " why didnt they do that" pfft,...... oh please.

BTW, great posts Ivona.