The wussifying of America

[slim 1,525]

Maybe we should close all college campuses across America and make all students attend online universities to gain their degrees... at least no one can shoot you through the internet, which is a good thing seeing some of the obvious disdain and hostility through this thread...

On a more serious note, this is an issue that I think has been made complex with the many different issues that have been added, such as gun control. I think the main point, if you boil everything down to what everyone is saying... is mentality... what is our mentality as a whole?

I noticed that people have referred to concentration camps as an example of people just giving up, and in to death, while they far outnumbered their SS officers... and I think that this is a great example of mentality. Also the Vietnam POWs are a good example of mentality. But in those situations they were not only physically assaulted, but used brainwashing techniques and propaganda... why? To change their mentality... to make them give up...

Are we being fed propaganda? What should our mentality be?

(I have an opinion, but I would like to hear some others before I get bashed)

Thank you.

Someone who actually read the original post, and instead of adding their dislike for guns or their "hero hindsight" scenarios, someone read the topic, thought about the topic, and then responded in kind.

Once again... to clarify my original post, and hopefully now you'll get it:

We are becoming wussies because we have a conditioned response NOT to react to violence with our own violence because we fear the consequences of our actions more than we fear the impending death or danger.

For everyone that's saying I would've done this or that, or how can you call them wussies because they were being shot at and did whatever they could to survive, etc., etc., etc., my point is if we can change our mentality from that of "surviving by doing nothing" or what I would refer to as "passive resistance to an armed threat" (including jumping under a desk, barricading the door, hopping out the window, pulling a dead body or anything else over you to shield you from direct fire) to one of "active resistance to an armed threat" or "surviving by doing anything possible to counter the threat, not just hide from it" then we would fare better in a violent situation.

The mentality we have is "take cover, do whatever you can to survive until the bad-man stops, then the police will take care of the bad-guys." That is a highly ineffective mentality to have when encountering an active armed threat. If we can switch that to "take cover, do whatever you can to survive until the bad-man stops, pauses, turns, reloads, breaks, etc., and then KILL HIM" then we will fare better in violent situations.

This thread was created to suggest not what we should've done if placed in the VA student's place, or if we were to encounter a similar situation, but moreover that if we could change our basic mentality as Americans from that of being scared of defending ourselves with overwhelming violence to "self defense as a deterrent" then we could probably change a whole lot of the negative aspects of our society.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Maybe we should close all college campuses across America and make all students attend online universities to gain their degrees... at least no one can shoot you through the internet, which is a good thing seeing some of the obvious disdain and hostility through this thread...

On a more serious note, this is an issue that I think has been made complex with the many different issues that have been added, such as gun control. I think the main point, if you boil everything down to what everyone is saying... is mentality... what is our mentality as a whole?

I noticed that people have referred to concentration camps as an example of people just giving up, and in to death, while they far outnumbered their SS officers... and I think that this is a great example of mentality. Also the Vietnam POWs are a good example of mentality. But in those situations they were not only physically assaulted, but used brainwashing techniques and propaganda... why? To change their mentality... to make them give up...

Are we being fed propaganda? What should our mentality be?

(I have an opinion, but I would like to hear some others before I get bashed)

Thank you.

Someone who actually read the original post, and instead of adding their dislike for guns or their "hero hindsight" scenarios, someone read the topic, thought about the topic, and then responded in kind.

Once again... to clarify my original post, and hopefully now you'll get it:

We are becoming wussies because we have a conditioned response NOT to react to violence with our own violence because we fear the consequences of our actions more than we fear the impending death or danger.

For everyone that's saying I would've done this or that, or how can you call them wussies because they were being shot at and did whatever they could to survive, etc., etc., etc., my point is if we can change our mentality from that of "surviving by doing nothing" or what I would refer to as "passive resistance to an armed threat" (including jumping under a desk, barricading the door, hopping out the window, pulling a dead body or anything else over you to shield you from direct fire) to one of "active resistance to an armed threat" or "surviving by doing anything possible to counter the threat, not just hide from it" then we would fare better in a violent situation.

The mentality we have is "take cover, do whatever you can to survive until the bad-man stops, then the police will take care of the bad-guys." That is a highly ineffective mentality to have when encountering an active armed threat. If we can switch that to "take cover, do whatever you can to survive until the bad-man stops, pauses, turns, reloads, breaks, etc., and then KILL HIM" then we will fare better in violent situations.

This thread was created to suggest not what we should've done if placed in the VA student's place, or if we were to encounter a similar situation, but moreover that if we could change our basic mentality as Americans from that of being scared of defending ourselves with overwhelming violence to "self defense as a deterrent" then we could probably change a whole lot of the negative aspects of our society.

Whatever you intended to say - I think what strikes me as rather questionable is exactly how the central assumption at the core of your argument (see bolded) can be rationalised (even indirectly) in reference to the events of last week or indeed to other events of a similar nature. The implicit meaning seems fairly clear IMO. Context defines after all.

Secondly, I'm not sure that this "ineffective mentality" you refer to is some sort of new phenomenon specific to the modern world. I really don't think it is - you mentioned "fear of being sued" as a possible justification for why people do nothing - I don't see that either. Again there are implicit assumptions being made here - first, that rationality can be maintained in circumstances that more or less automatically trigger irrational responses; and second that people nowadays are generally more cowardly than equivalent people 50 or 100 years ago, which is something I'm not sure you could really quantify.

Finally, I'm also no closer to understanding exactly how such mentality can be changed - short of putting everyone through some sort of boot-camp type conditioning process. But again - the upshot of more people prepared to respond to violence with violence would seem to me to be a generally more violent society. But that's IMHO of course...

[russ 1]

I think that it can be quantified. When I was growing up, and getting picked on in the school yard (like every other kid on earth), the advice from my father was quite simple.

Get up, look the bully in the eye, and use your little finger to push him over. (It took some practice to learn how to do this.) I didn't really have problems with bullies after that. I was probably 6 years old. My grandmother thought it was best punch them out. She was a bit less subtle. This wasn't the sort of thing we got in much trouble for in school back then (and this was only 20-odd years ago in Massachusetts of all places).

Things seem much different now. I don't see many parents (who are my age now) teaching their kids to stand up for themselves.

The message seems to be more along the lines of what my Mom would have said - "Run and find a teacher or cop or something." (Bad advice for 6 year olds. You look like a wimp and get picked on much worse the next time.)

Secondly, I'm not sure that this "ineffective mentality" you refer to is some sort of new phenomenon specific to the modern world. I really don't think it is - you mentioned "fear of being sued" as a possible justification for why people do nothing - I don't see that either. Again there are implicit assumptions being made here - first, that rationality can be maintained in circumstances that more or less automatically trigger irrational responses; and second that people nowadays are generally more cowardly than equivalent people 50 or 100 years ago, which is something I'm not sure you could really quantify.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think that it can be quantified. When I was growing up, and getting picked on in the school yard (like every other kid on earth), the advice from my father was quite simple.

Get up, look the bully in the eye, and use your little finger to push him over. (It took some practice to learn how to do this.) I didn't really have problems with bullies after that. I was probably 6 years old. My grandmother thought it was best punch them out. She was a bit less subtle. This wasn't the sort of thing we got in much trouble for in school back then (and this was only 20-odd years ago in Massachusetts of all places).

Things seem much different now. I don't see many parents (who are my age now) teaching their kids to stand up for themselves.

The message seems to be more along the lines of what my Mom would have said - "Run and find a teacher or cop or something." (Bad advice for 6 year olds. You look like a wimp and get picked on much worse the next time.)

Secondly, I'm not sure that this "ineffective mentality" you refer to is some sort of new phenomenon specific to the modern world. I really don't think it is - you mentioned "fear of being sued" as a possible justification for why people do nothing - I don't see that either. Again there are implicit assumptions being made here - first, that rationality can be maintained in circumstances that more or less automatically trigger irrational responses; and second that people nowadays are generally more cowardly than equivalent people 50 or 100 years ago, which is something I'm not sure you could really quantify.

I think kids nowadays fight just as much as they always did (at least in the UK), playground society hasn't changed that much - if at all. The only pertinent factor I think that comes into play is the arguable legal liability of the school if your kid comes home with a black eye, hence "contact sports" seem to be frowned upon these days. Still there's a world of difference to standing up to a bully who fights with his fists Vs. standing up to a resentful victim of said bullying intent on "retribution" with the help of a semi-automatic.

[MaRob 0]

I think that it can be quantified. When I was growing up, and getting picked on in the school yard (like every other kid on earth), the advice from my father was quite simple.

Get up, look the bully in the eye, and use your little finger to push him over. (It took some practice to learn how to do this.) I didn't really have problems with bullies after that. I was probably 6 years old. My grandmother thought it was best punch them out. She was a bit less subtle. This wasn't the sort of thing we got in much trouble for in school back then (and this was only 20-odd years ago in Massachusetts of all places).

Things seem much different now. I don't see many parents (who are my age now) teaching their kids to stand up for themselves.

The message seems to be more along the lines of what my Mom would have said - "Run and find a teacher or cop or something." (Bad advice for 6 year olds. You look like a wimp and get picked on much worse the next time.)

I have to admit I laughed at the part about your grandmother... but that is what my opinion is on the subject as well... generally, society as a whole, kids and adults, are being brainwashed to not stand up for themselves... "its not ok to hit back." I believe that feeds into a victim mentality. Now I'm not saying teach our kids to fight anything and everything that comes along, throwing away common sense... but maybe developing a character in our kids that combines wisdom and courage... to look for ways out, do whatever possible to save others & ourselves, and if an opportunity opens to take out the threat, that we would have the courage to do so. I don't think it is possible to develop that character if we are always telling them to run from the problem.

[mybackpages 0]

Teaching a child it not okay to hit back is teaching them to run away from their problems? I thought it was teaching them that there are many solutions to a problem other than violence.

[Alex+R 0]

Teaching a child it not okay to hit back is teaching them to run away from their problems? I thought it was teaching them that there are many solutions to a problem other than violence.

Agreed. Hitting back is for those who don't have the brains to think of more fun ways to get back at bullies.

[Fandango 1,439]

Eh regarding school bullies and the like...I dunno...sometimes a good azz whoopin is the only thing to resolve a situation.

There was a school bully in our elementary/middle school who was such a brute, she used to take lunch money from boys! She bothered everyone...including me...at whim, almost on a rota, FOR YEARS. She was HUGE.,...way taller, built like a brick sh!thouse. I finally whooped her azz when I was 13. Believe me, I am soooooooo not a physical fighter.......and it was like David & Goliath.and no I didn't start the fight....man I can still recall my butt shakin with fear, lol. But she never bothered anyone ever again.

I still remember walking down my bus aisle while everyone chanted the theme to Rocky, hahaha.

Edited April 24, 2007 by LisaD

[Robor007 0]

Maybe we should close all college campuses across America and make all students attend online universities to gain their degrees... at least no one can shoot you through the internet, which is a good thing seeing some of the obvious disdain and hostility through this thread...

On a more serious note, this is an issue that I think has been made complex with the many different issues that have been added, such as gun control. I think the main point, if you boil everything down to what everyone is saying... is mentality... what is our mentality as a whole?

I noticed that people have referred to concentration camps as an example of people just giving up, and in to death, while they far outnumbered their SS officers... and I think that this is a great example of mentality. Also the Vietnam POWs are a good example of mentality. But in those situations they were not only physically assaulted, but used brainwashing techniques and propaganda... why? To change their mentality... to make them give up...

Are we being fed propaganda? What should our mentality be?

(I have an opinion, but I would like to hear some others before I get bashed)

Thank you.

Someone who actually read the original post, and instead of adding their dislike for guns or their "hero hindsight" scenarios, someone read the topic, thought about the topic, and then responded in kind.

Once again... to clarify my original post, and hopefully now you'll get it:

We are becoming wussies because we have a conditioned response NOT to react to violence with our own violence because we fear the consequences of our actions more than we fear the impending death or danger.

For everyone that's saying I would've done this or that, or how can you call them wussies because they were being shot at and did whatever they could to survive, etc., etc., etc., my point is if we can change our mentality from that of "surviving by doing nothing" or what I would refer to as "passive resistance to an armed threat" (including jumping under a desk, barricading the door, hopping out the window, pulling a dead body or anything else over you to shield you from direct fire) to one of "active resistance to an armed threat" or "surviving by doing anything possible to counter the threat, not just hide from it" then we would fare better in a violent situation.

The mentality we have is "take cover, do whatever you can to survive until the bad-man stops, then the police will take care of the bad-guys." That is a highly ineffective mentality to have when encountering an active armed threat. If we can switch that to "take cover, do whatever you can to survive until the bad-man stops, pauses, turns, reloads, breaks, etc., and then KILL HIM" then we will fare better in violent situations.

This thread was created to suggest not what we should've done if placed in the VA student's place, or if we were to encounter a similar situation, but moreover that if we could change our basic mentality as Americans from that of being scared of defending ourselves with overwhelming violence to "self defense as a deterrent" then we could probably change a whole lot of the negative aspects of our society.

You keep saying what they should have done. Sorry, but you can't say that because you weren't there. Again, YOU WERE NOT THERE. It's easy to be an 'armchair QB' and say everyone should have charged him. Of course that would have saved lives but would you be the first to charge? If so chances are you'd be dead right now. So you can say you would do this or that but until you're actually in a situation where you're unarmed and faced with a lunatic with 2 semi-automatic handguns you don't know what you would do. IMO you dug yourself a hole with the original post and at this point all you're doing is throwing dirt on yourself.

[AnaAndDaniel 0]

Teaching a child it not okay to hit back is teaching them to run away from their problems? I thought it was teaching them that there are many solutions to a problem other than violence.

bro slim, do you have some solution in mind? even a general solution?

i am having a hard time grasping how we would resolve this "problem". do you think that the current solution of a majority protected by a trained forced is not the way to go for a society to handle violence?

Daniel

:energetic:

[russ 1]

There are often many solutions. My example was not violent, but it was more related to dealing with the problem instead of passing the buck.

The is a lot more buck-passing since Give 'em Hell Harry in my opinion. (Though I wasn't alive then, and am probably wrong)

Teaching a child it not okay to hit back is teaching them to run away from their problems? I thought it was teaching them that there are many solutions to a problem other than violence.

[Fandango 1,439]

You keep saying what they should have done. Sorry, but you can't say that because you weren't there. Again, YOU WERE NOT THERE. It's easy to be an 'armchair QB' and say everyone should have charged him. Of course that would have saved lives but would you be the first to charge? If so chances are you'd be dead right now. So you can say you would do this or that but until you're actually in a situation where you're unarmed and faced with a lunatic with 2 semi-automatic handguns you don't know what you would do. IMO you dug yourself a hole with the original post and at this point all you're doing is throwing dirt on yourself.

This topic has spun into many directions, but ITA with what you've said here.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Teaching a child it not okay to hit back is teaching them to run away from their problems? I thought it was teaching them that there are many solutions to a problem other than violence.

What's wrong will teaching your children ALL options? Plan for the worst and hope for the best.....

[Peikko 1,575]

I don't think any teacher/playground assistant wants to spend their time adjudicating playground violence. Bullying is not tolerated and children are taught that standing up to bullies by exposing their controlling behaviour to an adult who can properly deal with the situation is the right way to go. It takes at least as much courage to go down this route as to hit back. Teachers need to know who the bullies are, they don't need the playground to become a big game of survival of the fittest. I am really quite suprised that anyone thinks this makes some kind of sense.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't think any teacher/playground assistant wants to spend their time adjudicating playground violence. Bullying is not tolerated and children are taught that standing up to bullies by exposing their controlling behaviour to an adult who can properly deal with the situation is the right way to go. It takes at least as much courage to go down this route as to hit back. Teachers need to know who the bullies are, they don't need the playground to become a big game of survival of the fittest. I am really quite suprised that anyone thinks this makes some kind of sense.

I think it always has been. I agree - teaching your kid to stand up for him/herself is one thing - endorsing violence as the quickest and only solution to a problem clearly is not.