The wussifying of America

[Caladan 19]

It takes years of training and experience to ensure that someone won't follow that natural reaction in a violent situation. Visualization is only good if you have a f*cking clue what you should be visualizing.

I'd have to disagree with the years of training to go against the "natural reaction." Due to much disfortune in my life and bullies wanting to pick on me for whatever reason, I have had a gun pulled on me three times, and a knife once (and I've never served in the army). Let me tell you, it only takes one time, then your buying sidearms and taking martial arts to protect yourself. This gives credence to your "visualiation" argument. By the fourth encounter and the dudes with a knife, I was actually laughing and asking, "that's all ya got?" BTW, I'm not macho, I'm probably the size of your 12-year old son.

I also said experience. So I'm not sure you're really a counterexample here; you've studied martial arts, are familiar with weapons and have had guns pulled on you multiple times and survived years of bullying. That's not just visualizing throwing chairs at people or waving around platitudes about 'fight back'. And even you might freeze if someone enters your classroom and doesn't just pull the gun, but blows away three people before you can blink.

I don't think we're going to start a program of bullying freshmen and pulling guns on them so they don't panic in mass murder situations, though, in the midst of grading their papers, I have to say that such a project has its attractions.

[homesick_american 1]

i doubt that....

Who's going to defend Europe if Russia decided to invade? France?

The UK, most likely.

Hey, don't laugh. They held off the Nazis before the US even entered World War II.

[Mags 112]

i doubt that....

Who's going to defend Europe if Russia decided to invade? France?

The UK, most likely.

Hey, don't laugh. They held off the Nazis before the US even entered World War II.

Exactly!

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

slim, consider that most of the people 'hiding' and saying 'oh god don't let me die' that you're heaping scorn on were already shot multiple times. Very few walked away uninjured (except in the room where they got the barricade up before the gunman came in). Someone who has been shot once in the liver and once in the leg isn't in a position to throw a chair (if they're not bolted down, if they're close enough to hit with a chair, y'see, these bullet things don't need to be fired at point-blank range) at a gunman.

Look at the news reports. Over sixty were injured.

Fleeing and hiding is the natural human reaction. No matter the society. It takes years of training and experience to ensure that someone won't follow that natural reaction in a violent situation. Visualization is only good if you have a f*cking clue what you should be visualizing.

It's not like if our motto is 'Bravely fight back' people will be immune to panic. No one is saying that losing 30 people is acceptable. That's just insulting. You know what else isn't acceptable? Fantasyland I'd-throw-a-chair-at-a-gunman blame-the-victim stories.

What's your plan them? I'm very curious.

[Caladan 19]

I think that any plan that expects average untrained human beings to react like hotkeyed video game characters is doomed before it begins. I think any plan that would require that the average college student is an experienced survivor of a massacre is highly unlikely.

So what I'd like to see: stricter mental health treatment for undergraduates. Cho was stalking women, suicidal, and scaring his professors with his writing. He shouldn't have been on campus, but no one could remove him because no one person seemed to have all of the information available. Centralizing the information would help.

Existing gun laws should be enforced. I'd be open to allowing professors to carry weapons onto campus; opening it up to undergraduates seems to me to mean trading a massacre for several small shootings annually. Speaking as an instructor, I'd be far more nervous if I knew that the student I have who lost his mind last week had easy access to a firearm (maybe not his, maybe his roommate's) than I am by the thought of a massacre somewhere in the U.S. once every decade.

And it should be policy on campuses that if there is a murder on the campus, and the police don't have the gunman in custody, that classes are cancelled. No need to lockdown everyone in their rooms; but remove the shooting gallery aspect of the classroom (and maybe the dining hall). Murders don't happen that often; it wouldn't be that much of an inconvenience to cancel classes for a few hours until the police can ascertain whether there's a more serious threat.

[Scott & Lai 12]

Robot Chicken. Are you advocating gun control?

I would be fine with it and I own a gun - it doesn't leave my house though.

I hope you have an agreement in writing with all the criminals that they will leave you alone when you leave your house.

[Scott & Lai 12]

So what I'd like to see: stricter mental health treatment for undergraduates. Cho was stalking women, suicidal, and scaring his professors with his writing. He shouldn't have been on campus, but no one could remove him because no one person seemed to have all of the information available. Centralizing the information would help.

Existing gun laws should be enforced. I'd be open to allowing professors to carry weapons onto campus;

And it should be policy on campuses that if there is a murder on the campus, and the police don't have the gunman in custody, that classes are cancelled. No need to lockdown everyone in their rooms; but remove the shooting gallery aspect of the classroom (and maybe the dining hall). Murders don't happen that often; it wouldn't be that much of an inconvenience to cancel classes for a few hours until the police can ascertain whether there's a more serious threat.

I'm with you on this part, but I also think that a student who can qualify for a CCW should be allowed to carry on campus. I don't believe there should be places where an assailant is guaranteed that no potential victim can defend themselves.

Edited April 21, 2007 by Scott & Lai

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I think that any plan that expects average untrained human beings to react like hotkeyed video game characters is doomed before it begins. I think any plan that would require that the average college student is an experienced survivor of a massacre is highly unlikely.

So what I'd like to see: stricter mental health treatment for undergraduates. Cho was stalking women, suicidal, and scaring his professors with his writing. He shouldn't have been on campus, but no one could remove him because no one person seemed to have all of the information available. Centralizing the information would help.

Existing gun laws should be enforced. I'd be open to allowing professors to carry weapons onto campus; opening it up to undergraduates seems to me to mean trading a massacre for several small shootings annually. Speaking as an instructor, I'd be far more nervous if I knew that the student I have who lost his mind last week had easy access to a firearm (maybe not his, maybe his roommate's) than I am by the thought of a massacre somewhere in the U.S. once every decade.

And it should be policy on campuses that if there is a murder on the campus, and the police don't have the gunman in custody, that classes are cancelled. No need to lockdown everyone in their rooms; but remove the shooting gallery aspect of the classroom (and maybe the dining hall). Murders don't happen that often; it wouldn't be that much of an inconvenience to cancel classes for a few hours until the police can ascertain whether there's a more serious threat.

Hindsight is 20/20

[Caladan 19]

That's true, but we can learn going forwards; if you don't have the gunman in custody, don't put all the students in big rooms with no locks.

[Alex+R 0]

That's true, but we can learn going forwards; if you don't have the gunman in custody, don't put all the students in big rooms with no locks.

I agree. As yet, we don't have any explanation for why the cops thought that shooter had left the state. #######?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I guess what bothers me about all this is the unspoken implication that we should somehow be anticipating violence at any time and in every possible context. Quite frankly, guns have no place in schools and people simply don't expect a madman to burst into the room and start pulling the trigger. And why should they?. Does this mean people should live constantly on edge and in fear of attack?

What if as you're sitting at the dinner table carving the christmas turkey a gang of armed robbers invade your house - do you have a plan for that? What about when you're sitting at the lights and there's a car next to you with tinted windows. Should you pull the gun out of the glovebox and hold it in your lap in case they are gangbangers out for a jolly? You can anticipate a madman about as much as you can expect to be struck by lightning. Is it possible? Sure - but I'm not going wear rubber boots everyday just on the offchance...

What if... what if... what if.... give me a fcuking break...

Concealed Carry in schools seems ridiculous to me - does this mean that walking around with a gun is going to be considered acceptable conduct? More specifically if its suddenly commonplace for students to carry, then surely it would also be commonplace for school staff and security not to question it. How then are you supposed to determine which are the guys who are carrying legally purchased and licensed weapons and which are not? Given the high levels of gang violence in some schools it seems a recipe for disaster IMO.

Edited April 22, 2007 by erekose

[Fandango 1,439]

Speaking as a single woman previously living in a 3000 sqft house all by herself, I can honestly say that I couldn't have done so if I didn't own a gun.

[Alex+R 0]

What if as you're sitting at the dinner table carving the christmas turkey a gang of armed robbers invade your house - do you have a plan for that? What about when you're sitting at the lights and there's a car next to you with tinted windows. Should you pull the gun out of the glovebox and hold it in your lap in case they are gangbangers out for a jolly? You can anticipate a madman about as much as you can expect to be struck by lightning. Is it possible? Sure - but I'm not going wear rubber boots everyday just on the offchance...

I believe this was the most hilarious paragraph you ever wrote.

[BJZags 17]

I guess what bothers me about all this is the unspoken implication that we should somehow be anticipating violence at any time and in every possible context. Quite frankly, guns have no place in schools and people simply don't expect a madman to burst into the room and start pulling the trigger. And why should they?. Does this mean people should live constantly on edge and in fear of attack?

No, sitting on edge fearing attack is what must be avoided, but everyone should be trained to be aware of their situation and surroundings. Being aware and having the knowledge of how to either protect yourself or seek shelter, or do whatever the situation warrants is just common sense.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I guess what bothers me about all this is the unspoken implication that we should somehow be anticipating violence at any time and in every possible context. Quite frankly, guns have no place in schools and people simply don't expect a madman to burst into the room and start pulling the trigger. And why should they?. Does this mean people should live constantly on edge and in fear of attack?

No, sitting on edge fearing attack is what must be avoided, but everyone should be trained to be aware of their situation and surroundings. Being aware and having the knowledge of how to either protect yourself or seek shelter, or do whatever the situation warrants is just common sense.

Sure - but its very easy to say when you don't have a gun shoved under your nose or have just seen someone's head blown off before your eyes.

There is no way you can predict something like what happened the other day. Someone bursting in to your classroom and pumping out bullets en-masse doesn't leave a lot of time to think. As others have pointed out. Instinct isn't predictable under extreme circumstances.