The wussifying of America

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Going by the recent experience of a friend of mine - I'd dispute that assertion.

What happened to your friend?

The teenage son of a family friend got himself in trouble with the police after he fell out with his teenage girlfriend and was basically hassling her at her work and threatened to send "compromising" pictures of her taken during their relationship to the girl's family. Basically a crime arising out of youthful immaturity rather anything genuinely sinister.

Somehow harrassment charges ended up as an indictment for 1st degree rape. It got to a point where the girl couldn't retract the charges because the DA wanted a conviction and the only way out (bizarrely enough) was for the two of them to get a quickie marriage to get out of it.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Seeing the future would definitely help you rush the gunman.

(Nothing more to say about the "I'm not blaming the victims, but I'm blaming the wussy victims" sort of posts. If you think your average 18-year-old can count the number of shots being fired in not one, but two semi-automatic weapons while being shot at, with no cover, and decide when to charge the gunman when it takes about 5-10 seconds to reload a clip.... you're pretty far gone from reality.)

Magazine, not clip. He wasn't loading the magazines most likely he carried extra.

A gun like the M-1 Garand uses a clip.

Most pistols use a magazine.

[almaty 19]

Seeing the future would definitely help you rush the gunman.

(Nothing more to say about the "I'm not blaming the victims, but I'm blaming the wussy victims" sort of posts. If you think your average 18-year-old can count the number of shots being fired in not one, but two semi-automatic weapons while being shot at, with no cover, and decide when to charge the gunman when it takes about 5-10 seconds to reload a clip.... you're pretty far gone from reality.)

Magazine, not clip. He wasn't loading the magazines most likely he carried extra.

A gun like the M-1 Garand uses a clip.

Most pistols use a magazine.

clips are ideal for quick reaction and continued response...

[Caladan 19]

Thanks.

[SteveLaura 0]

Early reports were saying about 10 second pauses in firing, but it's hard to say because it's not like the eyewitnesses were keeping time.

And, honestly, what difference would it have made anyway? Were the pauses because he was reloading or because he didn't have anyone else to shoot at? I know I wouldn't wish to make any assumptions in those circumstances.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Early reports were saying about 10 second pauses in firing, but it's hard to say because it's not like the eyewitnesses were keeping time.

And, honestly, what difference would it have made anyway? Were the pauses because he was reloading or because he didn't have anyone else to shoot at? I know I wouldn't wish to make any assumptions in those circumstances.

Apparently because in those few seconds, a group of shocked and terrified people who had no reason to expect someone to burst into their dorms and classrooms could have thought clearly enough to formulate a plan to "fight back".

[SteveLaura 0]

Early reports were saying about 10 second pauses in firing, but it's hard to say because it's not like the eyewitnesses were keeping time.

And, honestly, what difference would it have made anyway? Were the pauses because he was reloading or because he didn't have anyone else to shoot at? I know I wouldn't wish to make any assumptions in those circumstances.

Apparently because in those few seconds, a group of shocked and terrified people who had no reason to expect someone to burst into their dorms and classrooms could have thought clearly enough to formulate a plan to "fight back".

Hmm, why do I get the feeling you don't fully believe the likelihood of that, Fish..?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Early reports were saying about 10 second pauses in firing, but it's hard to say because it's not like the eyewitnesses were keeping time.

And, honestly, what difference would it have made anyway? Were the pauses because he was reloading or because he didn't have anyone else to shoot at? I know I wouldn't wish to make any assumptions in those circumstances.

Apparently because in those few seconds, a group of shocked and terrified people who had no reason to expect someone to burst into their dorms and classrooms could have thought clearly enough to formulate a plan to "fight back".

Hmm, why do I get the feeling you don't fully believe the likelihood of that, Fish..?

Oh no - I absolutely believe it. I've watched enough Hong Kong action movies to know that a person really can dodge bullets by leaping sideways through the air while maintaining perfect aim

[Mirorgate 0]

Early reports were saying about 10 second pauses in firing, but it's hard to say because it's not like the eyewitnesses were keeping time.

And, honestly, what difference would it have made anyway? Were the pauses because he was reloading or because he didn't have anyone else to shoot at? I know I wouldn't wish to make any assumptions in those circumstances.

Apparently because in those few seconds, a group of shocked and terrified people who had no reason to expect someone to burst into their dorms and classrooms could have thought clearly enough to formulate a plan to "fight back".

Hmm, why do I get the feeling you don't fully believe the likelihood of that, Fish..?

Oh no - I absolutely believe it. I've watched enough Hong Kong action movies to know that a person really can dodge bullets by leaping sideways through the air while maintaining perfect aim

I <3 Chou Young Fat

[slim 1,525]

I guess I'm being too long winded with my point. I'll attempt clarification again, with more brevity.

Americans (Europeans, and those in a "civilized society") have a conditioned response to flee impending violent death caused by another human being instead of fighting it. If we were to change that, we could drastically reduce the number of casualties in a violent situation.

And for those with no "training"..... an average, able-bodied person can move over nine feet in half-a-second. That's 9 ft. in 1/2 of a second. How big is a classroom? 30 ft? OK. That means to move from the very back of the classroom to the very front, it should take at most, 1.5 seconds. Say to yourself, right now, "one-thousand-one, one-thous....." Now, imagine as you're sitting at your computer reading this someone just popped in the door and started shooting pistols into the room. They have to effectively cover at least a 90-degree arc with sustained, accurate fire, and continue it for longer than that 1.5 seconds, and also have to hit every person in the room with result enough to prohibit them from countering the threat. By that time, the gunman is either out of ammo, or effectively neutralized.

I know you're sitting there saying "well, I'm under my desk already on the floor, trying to hide" and I probably would be too. But if we could all condition ourselves to say in that split second "OK. I've gotta get up, cover that 30 feet and hit that guy. NO WAY! It's going to take me a second and a half, and in that time I'll be dead. But, I can throw that chair at him in under half a second.... then cover that 30 feet."

I know that's all Jack Bauer and "hero's get killed" stuff, but we as a people do not think like that. We think "Oh my god. Please don't kill me. Ahhh." And that's OK. Initially. It needs to switch from that to "OK. Now I'm going to take this guy out."

If we all thought like that, losing 30+ people to a single gunman would be unacceptable.

My point in this whole thread is not that people did right or did wrong in any incident, only that if we were to change our mentality from "please don't shoot me" to "Oh no he didn't" then we would fare better in shooting rampages, suicide hijackings and the like.

[Alex+R 0]

I guess I'm being too long winded with my point. I'll attempt clarification again, with more brevity.

Americans (Europeans, and those in a "civilized society") have a conditioned response to flee impending violent death caused by another human being instead of fighting it. If we were to change that, we could drastically reduce the number of casualties in a violent situation.

And for those with no "training"..... an average, able-bodied person can move over nine feet in half-a-second. That's 9 ft. in 1/2 of a second. How big is a classroom? 30 ft? OK. That means to move from the very back of the classroom to the very front, it should take at most, 1.5 seconds. Say to yourself, right now, "one-thousand-one, one-thous....." Now, imagine as you're sitting at your computer reading this someone just popped in the door and started shooting pistols into the room. They have to effectively cover at least a 90-degree arc with sustained, accurate fire, and continue it for longer than that 1.5 seconds, and also have to hit every person in the room with result enough to prohibit them from countering the threat. By that time, the gunman is either out of ammo, or effectively neutralized.

I know you're sitting there saying "well, I'm under my desk already on the floor, trying to hide" and I probably would be too. But if we could all condition ourselves to say in that split second "OK. I've gotta get up, cover that 30 feet and hit that guy. NO WAY! It's going to take me a second and a half, and in that time I'll be dead. But, I can throw that chair at him in under half a second.... then cover that 30 feet."

I know that's all Jack Bauer and "hero's get killed" stuff, but we as a people do not think like that. We think "Oh my god. Please don't kill me. Ahhh." And that's OK. Initially. It needs to switch from that to "OK. Now I'm going to take this guy out."

If we all thought like that, losing 30+ people to a single gunman would be unacceptable.

My point in this whole thread is not that people did right or did wrong in any incident, only that if we were to change our mentality from "please don't shoot me" to "Oh no he didn't" then we would fare better in shooting rampages, suicide hijackings and the like.

Slim, I can see that like everyone else, you want to find an explanation or even solution to what happene at Virginia Tech. But Slim, yet again, in this post you don't clarify anything. You just keep saying the SAME THING OVER AND OVER without listening to anyone else. See that part in bold? That's the part that makes no sense. There is no conditioned automatic response to violence in the developed world that is any different from any humans anywhere else in the world or throughout time. That assumption just makes no sense.

But good luck attempting to reverse years upon of years of evolution singlehandedly.

[homesick_american 1]

I guess I'm being too long winded with my point. I'll attempt clarification again, with more brevity.

slim...you can't dig up, you can only dig down.

I recognize that you're being sincere but I do not agree with your arguments in the slightest, and blaming the victims is never going to win the argument for you.

[Caladan 19]

slim, consider that most of the people 'hiding' and saying 'oh god don't let me die' that you're heaping scorn on were already shot multiple times. Very few walked away uninjured (except in the room where they got the barricade up before the gunman came in). Someone who has been shot once in the liver and once in the leg isn't in a position to throw a chair (if they're not bolted down, if they're close enough to hit with a chair, y'see, these bullet things don't need to be fired at point-blank range) at a gunman.

Look at the news reports. Over sixty were injured.

Fleeing and hiding is the natural human reaction. No matter the society. It takes years of training and experience to ensure that someone won't follow that natural reaction in a violent situation. Visualization is only good if you have a f*cking clue what you should be visualizing.

It's not like if our motto is 'Bravely fight back' people will be immune to panic. No one is saying that losing 30 people is acceptable. That's just insulting. You know what else isn't acceptable? Fantasyland I'd-throw-a-chair-at-a-gunman blame-the-victim stories.

[BJZags 17]

It takes years of training and experience to ensure that someone won't follow that natural reaction in a violent situation. Visualization is only good if you have a f*cking clue what you should be visualizing.

I'd have to disagree with the years of training to go against the "natural reaction." Due to much disfortune in my life and bullies wanting to pick on me for whatever reason, I have had a gun pulled on me three times, and a knife once (and I've never served in the army). Let me tell you, it only takes one time, then your buying sidearms and taking martial arts to protect yourself. This gives credence to your "visualiation" argument. By the fourth encounter and the dudes with a knife, I was actually laughing and asking, "that's all ya got?" BTW, I'm not macho, I'm probably the size of your 12-year old son.

[CountryBoy 0]

i doubt that....

Who's going to defend Europe if Russia decided to invade? France?

The UK, most likely.