The wussifying of America

[Alex+R 0]

This topic is not making a difference. All we need to do is to prevent it from happening again.

Ah, that's all? How do we plan to do that?

[Caladan 19]

Couple points, slim.

A) Regardless of what Limbaugh or whatever armchair radio jockey says, this country does not glorify giving up and being a victim. It doesn't advocate lying down. Our movies, television, heroes --- all people who meet violence with violence. 300. 24. Grindhouse. Pick a TV channel. This is not a culture that makes movies about virtuous victims, but about vigilantes who get tortured and then go bite their way free. So I think you're just wrong on the facts. This is a culture that glorifies violence yet never experiences it, so only has a fairy-tale idea of what it's like. This leads me to my second point....

B) Some time ago -- first or second WW, can't remember the details -- someone realized that the biggest problem they had with young draftees in battle was their deep resistance to pulling the trigger. Soldiers weren't firing. These were young men who grew up with guns, had been through training, knew they were in a war... and yet some of them... failed to fire. In WWI they had to threaten to shoot men who wouldn't go over the top to die in battle because rushing toward your death is not a natural human instinct.

Point is, human beings, even the Greatest Generation, aren't natural warriors except by training or circumstance or severe mental illness. This leads me to my third point...

C) You seem to be forgetting that these kids are civilians. Young ones, from non-war-torn backgrounds. You would need military training to over come their natural wussy instinct. Just saying 'hit back' isn't going to do it; farmboys wet their pants and cried for mother in battle in an era where they scuffled in the school yard.

Let's think about this. You want a classroom full of engineers to act as a trained unit to take down a gunman. That's going to take some serious training. Not just fighting back, mind you; to do this right, we'd need to drop them in a war zone, or at least some of the rougher neighborhoods in NYC. Maybe have their homework to be to bite a gang member, so they get experience. Maybe give them some drugs, and shoot the ones that don't do well. Hey, lookit that, we're in Sierra Leone! Bet those kids would fight back.

And that way... they'd be prepared... in case one day... while sitting in class... if a gunman burst in... they might be able to tackle him before he shot anyone else... ? Come on.

Americans who have had the opportunity to tackle a mad gunman have done so; usually they're bystanders who were late on the scene, at a scene with freedom of movement and good cover. That hasn't changed. No one tackled the gunman here, but it's hard to say, without being there, why no one did successfully. (There were two attempts, it seems like, but those don't count for some reason. Guess you're only not wussy if you succeed.)

[Nagishkaw 510]

This topic is not making a difference. All we need to do is to prevent it from happening again.

Your posting of a bunch of words from thread to thread just to earn your second little heart is not making a difference, either. You can prevent THAT from happening, too.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

This topic is not making a difference. All we need to do is to prevent it from happening again.

Your posting of a bunch of words from thread to thread just to earn your second little heart is not making a difference, either. You can prevent THAT from happening, too.

best post of the day

[kaydee457 13]

Harry Reid today declared to all, including our enemies, "that the war is lost".....On this alone, we end this thread.

Edited April 19, 2007 by kaydee457

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Fighting violence with more violence is the only way to reduce casualties.

hmmmm...bro slim, that makes no sense..sounds like you ripped that out of an US Army manual

Fight back. Don't be a willing victim. It's a fair message.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm kind of interested about "conditioned to act in violent situations" - no one is conditioned in this regard except for maybe the police and the military. The fact is, that unless you were there or have been a victim of a violent crime you don't know how you will react in such a situation.

I'm curious about that too - how exactly does a person become "conditioned to violence"?

Short of throwing everyone in jail, or into a warzone - exactly how is this achievable?

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I'm kind of interested about "conditioned to act in violent situations" - no one is conditioned in this regard except for maybe the police and the military. The fact is, that unless you were there or have been a victim of a violent crime you don't know how you will react in such a situation.

I'm curious about that too - how exactly does a person become "conditioned to violence"?

Short of throwing everyone in jail, or into a warzone - exactly how is this achievable?

misquote

It's called 'having a plan'. It's recommended to practice fire drills in your home. Even if you have never been on fire.

1. jump out a window

2. run away from gunfire

3. etc..

But just lining up against a wall to be shot in the back of the head should be not in the plan. Talk to your kids and work out a plan on an individual family basis.

Are You Ready? An In-depth Guide to Citizen Preparedness

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm kind of interested about "conditioned to act in violent situations" - no one is conditioned in this regard except for maybe the police and the military. The fact is, that unless you were there or have been a victim of a violent crime you don't know how you will react in such a situation.

I'm curious about that too - how exactly does a person become "conditioned to violence"?

Short of throwing everyone in jail, or into a warzone - exactly how is this achievable?

misquote

It's called 'having a plan'. It's recommended to practice fire drills in your home. Even if you have never been on fire.

1. jump out a window

2. run away from gunfire

3. etc..

But just lining up against a wall to be shot in the back of the head should be not in the plan. Talk to your kids and work out a plan on an individual family basis.

Are You Ready? An In-depth Guide to Citizen Preparedness

Hmmm that didn't really answer the question. Outside of the military or law-enforcement how do you train / condition yourself to act and others in a violent and shocking violent situation, far removed from everyday life?

Take some boxing lessons? What about martial arts? I've known at least one person who did that, but still froze when he was jumped by a guy with a knife.

You might think not being a "willing victim" is a fair comment - I think it is a throwaway one. One that becomes increasingly dubious as people try to elaborate on it.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Almost every woman I know has taken a self defence class at some point in her life

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Once again.... do not take my comments as saying that anyone at that school did anything wrong, or was a wussy because they "hid". I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that if we had a conditioned response to FIGHT BACK when we saw violence happening, (instead of a conditioned response to hide from it) then we may fare better when faced with violent situations.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that you certainly seemed to imply that when you said:

And the tragic fact that comes along with that is when a single individual armed with handguns attacks a group of unarmed people, he's able to kill 33 of them without facing any resistance what-so-ever.

A little over five years ago, 3000 people lost their lives because 19 men had box cutters and were able to hold a few hundred at bay for an hour.

Almost every woman I know has taken a self defence class at some point in her life

Learning the techniques is all well and good but useless if you can't handle a violent situation. A lot of people can't, and I'm really not sure how this can change in any practical sense.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I'm kind of interested about "conditioned to act in violent situations" - no one is conditioned in this regard except for maybe the police and the military. The fact is, that unless you were there or have been a victim of a violent crime you don't know how you will react in such a situation.

I'm curious about that too - how exactly does a person become "conditioned to violence"?

Short of throwing everyone in jail, or into a warzone - exactly how is this achievable?

misquote

It's called 'having a plan'. It's recommended to practice fire drills in your home. Even if you have never been on fire.

1. jump out a window

2. run away from gunfire

3. etc..

But just lining up against a wall to be shot in the back of the head should be not in the plan. Talk to your kids and work out a plan on an individual family basis.

Are You Ready? An In-depth Guide to Citizen Preparedness

Hmmm that didn't really answer the question. Outside of the military or law-enforcement how do you train / condition yourself to act and others in a violent and shocking violent situation, far removed from everyday life?

Take some boxing lessons? What about martial arts? I've known at least one person who did that, but still froze when he was jumped by a guy with a knife.

You might think not being a "willing victim" is a fair comment - I think it is a throwaway one. One that becomes increasingly dubious as people try to elaborate on it.

Visualization. Same with the fire drill.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I do wonder who here has been a victim of a violent crime? I have - visualization didn't really help.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm kind of interested about "conditioned to act in violent situations" - no one is conditioned in this regard except for maybe the police and the military. The fact is, that unless you were there or have been a victim of a violent crime you don't know how you will react in such a situation.

I'm curious about that too - how exactly does a person become "conditioned to violence"?

Short of throwing everyone in jail, or into a warzone - exactly how is this achievable?

misquote

It's called 'having a plan'. It's recommended to practice fire drills in your home. Even if you have never been on fire.

1. jump out a window

2. run away from gunfire

3. etc..

But just lining up against a wall to be shot in the back of the head should be not in the plan. Talk to your kids and work out a plan on an individual family basis.

Are You Ready? An In-depth Guide to Citizen Preparedness

Hmmm that didn't really answer the question. Outside of the military or law-enforcement how do you train / condition yourself to act and others in a violent and shocking violent situation, far removed from everyday life?

Take some boxing lessons? What about martial arts? I've known at least one person who did that, but still froze when he was jumped by a guy with a knife.

You might think not being a "willing victim" is a fair comment - I think it is a throwaway one. One that becomes increasingly dubious as people try to elaborate on it.

Visualization. Same with the fire drill.

Ever been involved in a firedrill at a corporate office? They are generally complete fiascos.

Its really very simple - if you haven't faced a hi-stress situation like a mugging or indeed, a rape - you're at best, ill-equipped the handle such a situation in a rational manner when the adrenaline kicks in. Be prepared, have a plan - sounds great, but its a pedestrian statement - easy to say how others should respond in situations that you haven't been faced with yourself. Moreover, most 'plans' go out the window when pant-wetting fear is involved.

I do wonder who here has been a victim of a violent crime? I have - visualization didn't really help.

Out of curiosity I did a poll on that not so long ago - 70% of the people who replied had not experienced what they considered "violent crime".

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I should add to what I wrote above - that even someone who has experienced some sort of violent crime isn't likely to learn anything useful from it - except to become very traumatised. Moreover aren't the people who are "conditioned to violence" exactly the kind of people who end up perpetrating it.

I guess the message is "beat your kids good, because they'll become stronger from the experience". I'm probably not the only one who would raise an eyebrow at that - considering that many of the people who commit violent crimes are from abusive family backgrounds.

Edited April 20, 2007 by erekose