The wussifying of America

[Caladan 19]

Also... it's not a video game. You can't hotkey the students and direct them to attack the gunman simultaneously. Classrooms are devoid of obstacles to hide behind. So if you do it, you're going to be doing it alone, with (as the average suburban kid has) little to no direct experience with violence.

Edited April 19, 2007 by Caladan

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Considering that one Vjer knows one of the people killed the other day, relating this "wussification" idea to the events in VA is not only tactless, but downright disgusting. IMHO...

[Alex+R 0]

The idea that kids were afraid of getting in trouble for assaulting Cho, and that that was their "motivation" for being killed is preposterous and offensive to many people. OP, give it up. You haven't really clarified your position in any of your follow-up posts.

[slim 1,525]

At least two tried to rush the gunman. They died. I think it was brave of them to rush the gunman; but I don't think doing so is mandatory or always advisable.

Also... it's not a video game. You can't hotkey the students and direct them to attack the gunman simultaneously. Classrooms are devoid of obstacles to hide behind. So if you do it, you're going to be doing it alone, with (as the average suburban kid has) little to no direct experience with violence.

Exactly why we need to change our mentality towards violence. We can't hotkey students to attack the gunman simultaneously. That's because average suburban kids have little to no direct experience with violence. They only do what they've been told to do, and that is to NOT do anything. If they were told from knee-high til now to attack violence with more violence, then they could've overwhelmed the gunman.

Once again.... do not take my comments as saying that anyone at that school did anything wrong, or was a wussy because they "hid". I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that if we had a conditioned response to FIGHT BACK when we saw violence happening, (instead of a conditioned response to hide from it) then we may fare better when faced with violent situations.

Law enforcement, military, etc., do have training to fight back and simultaneously attack a gunman. Average civilians do not, and therefore do not simultaneously attack a gunman. That needs to change.

It's sad when someone with a knife can hold hostage a plane full of people. That says something about the mentality of our society. It's worse when our mentality to "peacefully" survive a violent action subsequently costs the lives of 3,000 others.

Barricading a door, hiding under a desk, etc., doesn't make someone a wussy. Surviving a deadly situation, or even dying in a deadly situation is sometimes unavoidable. My argument is not to say anyone at that college in Virginia was a wussy, but moreover to suggest that we as Americans (or Europeans, or whatever... PEOPLE, The Human Element) we would increase our collective odds of survival if we were to better counter violent actions.

[mawilson 2,133]

You can't hotkey the students and direct them to attack the gunman simultaneously.

[Alex+R 0]

.

Once again.... do not take my comments as saying that anyone at that school did anything wrong, or was a wussy because they "hid". I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that if we had a conditioned response to FIGHT BACK when we saw violence happening, (instead of a conditioned response to hide from it) then we may fare better when faced with violent situations.

At very best, you're saying they're products of their wussy parents who are products of a wussy society that led those students to behave in a wussy way. But of course, the students themselves were not wusses.

The idea that we should fight violence with more violence is ridiculous. Stop being ridiculous, OP.

[slim 1,525]

At very best, you're saying they're products of their wussy parents who are products of a wussy society that led those students to behave in a wussy way. But of course, the students themselves were not wusses.

The idea that we should fight violence with more violence is ridiculous. Stop being ridiculous, OP.

NO.

I'm saying that we have a conditioned response to NOT act in a violent way to anything, even a life-threatening violent act. THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE!

Fighting violence with more violence is the only way to reduce casualties.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

.

Once again.... do not take my comments as saying that anyone at that school did anything wrong, or was a wussy because they "hid". I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that if we had a conditioned response to FIGHT BACK when we saw violence happening, (instead of a conditioned response to hide from it) then we may fare better when faced with violent situations.

At very best, you're saying they're products of their wussy parents who are products of a wussy society that led those students to behave in a wussy way. But of course, the students themselves were not wusses.

The idea that we should fight violence with more violence is ridiculous. Stop being ridiculous, OP.

Stop violence how then? Give the bad man a stern talking to? Wag your finger at him? Ridiculous indeed.

[almaty 19]

Fighting violence with more violence is the only way to reduce casualties.

hmmmm...bro slim, that makes no sense..sounds like you ripped that out of an US Army manual

[Alex+R 0]

At very best, you're saying they're products of their wussy parents who are products of a wussy society that led those students to behave in a wussy way. But of course, the students themselves were not wusses.

The idea that we should fight violence with more violence is ridiculous. Stop being ridiculous, OP.

NO.

I'm saying that we have a conditioned response to NOT act in a violent way to anything, even a life-threatening violent act. THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE!

Fighting violence with more violence is the only way to reduce casualties.

And I'm saying, I doubt that a natural aversion to violence has ANYTHING to do with this VA Tech situation. You can bet that if the whole building were armed, Cho would have died with much fewer casualties.*

*While that is undeniable, overall, more guns = more deaths, so I do not advocate this in general.

Your idea that people are afraid to protect themselves in life-threatening situations is just downright silly. No amount of cultural conditioning could breed natural human instincts out of us.

And arguing that we need more violence is just...bizarre.

[MPGGPM 0]

, even Russia, although the N'ord Ost seige was a hostage/barricaded suspects situation... completely different than a single gunman shooting everyone in front of him, but I'll go ahead and count Russia too,

Different only in numbers. But considering there was a ratio of 850 to 33, the "odds" work out to pretty close the same. Difference is , that instead of 1 to 32 ...................it was a ratio of 1 terrorist to about 26 hostages.

Different situations, nearly the same odds. They could have fought back as well.

Also, if anyone read that link I posted about the "Australian massacre" that happened in the 90's, in that case it was one gunman, to 35 victims.

So, the point is.............................it is NOT just an "American" trait, as you started the thread out to be.

Similar situations happen worldwide. And had I the time or inclination, I am sure I could find even "more" examples, to show you that you are wrong to characterize this as something related only to Americans.

(Although...yes...I did read how you are now including other regions of the world ......and are no longer saying it's just Americans. But , originally...you did...so my response is in regards to that.)

[Niels Bohr 72]

This topic is not making a difference. All we need to do is to prevent it from happening again.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I'm kind of interested about "conditioned to act in violent situations" - no one is conditioned in this regard except for maybe the police and the military. The fact is, that unless you were there or have been a victim of a violent crime you don't know how you will react in such a situation.

[MichelleandCraig 1]

Considering that one Vjer knows one of the people killed the other day, relating this "wussification" idea to the events in VA is not only tactless, but downright disgusting. IMHO...

Could. not. agree. more.

[ivona 0]

NO.

I'm saying that we have a conditioned response to NOT act in a violent way to anything, even a life-threatening violent act. THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE!

Fighting violence with more violence is the only way to reduce casualties.

My dear Slim,

my kids are far from college or even high school for that matter, hell the second one isn't even born yet, but I can tell you exactly what I would want them to do should they find themselves in any sort of hostage situation.

I would tell them to jump through that window, or do whatever they can to stay alive. If I ever have to be in a situation of a parent waiting on the other side of the fence waiting for my childs name to pop up, or hopefully to see him walking towards me- if he told me that he tried to fight the gunman, before hugging him like crazy, I would slap him sensless for trying to be a fcuking hero.

I want my children ALIVE, just that- ALIVE. Because it is much easier to comfort the parents who lost their children when you know that yours is safe, than it is to be on the receiving line. Because if my kid pulls a Jack Bauer to save the lives of others, I don't care that he would be called hero, that he would get all sorts of honours, that I would be told again and again of how he saved lives of ten others or some such- I don't care because he would be DEAD, NOT BREATHING, 6ft under ground...

If that makes me a selfish person, or even a wussy so be it