Gun-related Deaths in America Eclipse Terrorism

[CaliCat 3,957]

23 hours ago, Ban Hammer said:

 

 

 

I like this meme, because it shows that red-herrings are the best some can offer, and  it helps me raise the question that nobody can address. 

 

"I can't understand how some people are so scared of terrorists,

yet, they insist on burying their heads in the sand about gun deaths,

that kill far more than terrorism"

 

 

 

[IAMX 3,055]

27 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

Very good.  You got me there.  Except... it's not a gun show loophole.  That term has been coined and used as a way to try to get gunshows shut down, but it failed.  You see, there are not very many unlicensed dealers at a gun show.  As in maybe one person/booth for every 20 licensed ones.  (Again, a factoid you wouldn't know unless you have gone to a gun show and tried to buy a gun.)

 

ANY unlicensed seller of guns has no requirement to run a background check.  As in, I can sell you one of mine, privately, and no one the wiser (provided I have done my due diligence and ensured you are a law-abiding citizen allowed to purchase one - see below).  Done thousands of times EVERY DAY on the streets of America.  Has NOTHING to do with gun shows.  (And for the record, happens hundreds of thousands of times more often than at gun shows all across America).

 

Now, let me throw another tidbit your way that you may or may may not be familiar with.  This comes from the ATF (and is paraphrased): "...Any person who transfers a firearm, whether they are in the business of selling firearms or not, must ensure the transfer is in accordance with all federal, state, and local laws...".   What does that mean?  If you sell a gun to a person who is not legally allowed to own one, you have committed a crime and are punishable under the law.  

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/jan/07/politifact-sheet-3-things-know-about-gun-show-loop/

 

If you just read the first 4-5 pages (quick read) of the below document, you'll see that dealing in firearms is a tricky business, and there are only two kinds of people that tend to do it.  Those who are very picky about their business dealings, and those who don't care one bit about breaking the law (criminals.  Street gangs.  Etc.)

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

 

Also, if one opts to become a FFL, they are subject to a search of all their properties at any time as deemed prudent by law enforcement.  Same as those who manufacture alcohol, whether it be for consumption or fuel.  Caveat Emptor...

 

 

 

Just bumping this so its not lost on the last page. A very good response.

[CaliCat 3,957]

57 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

 

4) No.  Gun violence is NOT a serious problem in the US. Criminals that abuse guns and harm others are the serious problem.  As are doctors who cut off limbs and take out the wrong vital organs and kill patients are a serious problem.  Neither the scalpel nor the gun are to blame.

 

 

 

By the same token, terrorism isn't a serious problem in the US either, because it kills far less than guns.

 

So, what do we do, as a country? Do we shrug at both terrorism and guns, because there is nothing that we can do?

 

 

Edited August 20, 2017 by CaliCat

[CaliCat 3,957]

21 hours ago, Steeleballz said:

   You already said that. To reiterate, I asked for an explanation from rational right. I'm not getting either here.

 

The meme was meant as a red herring, because if doesn't offer a logical comparison, not is it relevant to the discussion.

 

But it adds color to the stale responses and hissy fits from those who are unable to understand the issue of gun violence.

 

[CaliCat 3,957]

22 hours ago, Steeleballz said:

  Don't you think the meme was made by a rightist? It would be better to have a rational rightist explain it. Good luck with that.

 

  I don't see any evidence that we have a living constitution. It's 1 step removed from being carved in stone. Changes require formal amendments. The amendment process is prohibitively difficult. Given the current state of politics, It's questionable if well ever see another one in our life time regardless of need. There has only been 1 in the last 50 years. That's not how you define living.

 

 

The meme was obviously made by someone who never thought it would be used in for the purpose it was. Perhaps it was meant for a discussion where someone was trying to interject constitutional right, or simply kids who were bored. It's childish at best in its attempt at relevance.

 

However, i don't think we need to discuss constitutional law, to realize that more people die in the United States from guns than from acts of terrorism. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Thank you for your support.

 

To be fair, gun shows USED to be (circa 20+ years ago?) a venue for quwarionable gun sales.  I recently attended one, and in the interest of seeing what all the hubbub was about, tried to purchase guns from about 5 different vendors "improperly"... using a fake name, an out-of-state drivers license, saying I was buying it as a gift for someone else.  I was rejected by all 5 sellers.  The one dealer with whom I was using an out-of-state DL offered to look up a FFL local to my residence and ship it to them for a fee, but I still had to go thru the background check and all that went with it.  No way was I walking out of the show with a gun that day.

 

6 hours ago, IAMX said:

Just bumping this so its not lost on the last page. A very good response.

 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Your point is valid.  Guns kill more in America than "external" terrorists.  As in people from other countries come to the US to try and topple us as a nation.  But I would argue that point that anyone who uses a gun to kill someone on the streets is also a terrorist.  Just because they are domestic criminals makes their violence any less terroristic.

 

I also posted a couple pages back about how many deaths in the US are caused by medical professionals, yet not one comment about that. Why not?  Are they acceptable because the mistakes are made inside of a hospital?  Because the numbers are STAGGERING, and far outweigh gun deaths.  From the source I originally quoted before:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/05/03/researchers-medical-errors-now-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-united-states/?utm_term=.5c162f901cbf

 

Quote

The IOM, based on one study, estimated deaths because of medical errors as high as 98,000 a year.  Makary’s research involves a more comprehensive analysis of four large studies, including ones by the Health and Human Services Department’s Office of the Inspector General and the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality that took place between 2000 to 2008. His calculation of 251,000 deaths equates to nearly 700 deaths a day — about 9.5 percent of all deaths annually in the United States.

 

 

Notice how gun deaths don't even make it onto this chart at all (33,500 for 2016 total, including suicide, which I think is also a very inaccurate thing to do)?  In fact, medical error killed 750% more people (7.5 times) the innocent victims than guns in the hands of criminals in 2016.

 

 

6 hours ago, CaliCat said:

 

 

The meme was obviously made by someone who never thought it would be used in for the purpose it was. Perhaps it was meant for a discussion where someone was trying to interject constitutional right, or simply kids who were bored. It's childish at best in its attempt at relevance.

 

However, i don't think we need to discuss constitutional law, to realize that more people die in the United States from guns than from acts of terrorism. 

 

Edited August 20, 2017 by IDWAF

[Ban Hammer 13,554]

14 hours ago, JimandChristy said:

Private sellers at gun shows, don't need to run a background check, only licenced dealers.

private sellers at nor not at gun shows - that does not mean they cannot be held financially liable in court. 
many gun owners are very careful who they sell guns to .

[Ban Hammer 13,554]

13 hours ago, CaliCat said:

 

But it adds color to the stale responses and hissy fits from those who are unable to understand the issue of gun violence.

 

you're welcome.  please carry on.

[CaliCat 3,957]

8 hours ago, IDWAF said:

Your point is valid.  Guns kill more in America than "external" terrorists.  As in people from other countries come to the US to try and topple us as a nation.  But I would argue that point that anyone who uses a gun to kill someone on the streets is also a terrorist.  Just because they are domestic criminals makes their violence any less terroristic.

 

I also posted a couple pages back about how many deaths in the US are caused by medical professionals, yet not one comment about that. Why not?  Are they acceptable because the mistakes are made inside of a hospital?  Because the numbers are STAGGERING, and far outweigh gun deaths.  From the source I originally quoted before:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/05/03/researchers-medical-errors-now-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-united-states/?utm_term=.5c162f901cbf

 

 

 

Notice how gun deaths don't even make it onto this chart at all (33,500 for 2016 total, including suicide, which I think is also a very inaccurate thing to do)?  In fact, medical error killed 750% more people (7.5 times) the innocent victims than guns in the hands of criminals in 2016.

 

 

 

 

I'd say that there's no equivalence to medical error to gun-related deaths. Medicine is practiced, meaning that each case is part of an evolving practice, where gun-related deaths are not practice, nor are they related to any specific science or scientific experiment or discovery. The differences also extend to the consequences. Medical errors are widely publicized and shared with the community as a means to prevent further deaths from occurring from a same error, whereas there is no equivalent in the case of gun-related deaths. 

 

Perhaps we should devote as much time and money to try and stem gun-related deaths as we do other causes, and give it as much coverage and notoriety as any other issues.

 

You will notice that terrorism doesn't make the list on the chart your published, which indicates we spend an enormous amount of time reporting and pondering about an issue that may be considered negligible, in comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

I see you didn't read the article.  No - medical errors, far from being publicized and shared, are often swept under the carpet, and never spoken of again, certainly kept from the public eye.  In fact, I personally know one doctor who killed one woman, and permanently crippled another, performing a simple tubligation on both.  What happened?  He was quietly shuffled to a hospital in another state.  No criminal charges.  

 

I also agree we should stem the gun-related deaths.  Locking up the criminals that illegally purchase guns would be a great start, don't you think?  But how to stem the tide of suicides, often committed with legally owned guns?  Would it matter?  A gun is simply an easier way to accomplish a goal by a person who has lost hope.  If not guns, they would find another method, I would imagine.

 

I don't disagree with you that guns are used to kill more people than external terrorism.  But bear in mind, that if that terrorism is ever allowed to gain a foothold on our shores, gun deaths, cancer, heart disease, and medical errors combined will be eclipsed in number.

 

[CaliCat 3,957]

1 hour ago, IDWAF said:

I see you didn't read the article.  No - medical errors, far from being publicized and shared, are often swept under the carpet, and never spoken of again, certainly kept from the public eye.  In fact, I personally know one doctor who killed one woman, and permanently crippled another, performing a simple tubligation on both.  What happened?  He was quietly shuffled to a hospital in another state.  No criminal charges.  

 

I also agree we should stem the gun-related deaths.  Locking up the criminals that illegally purchase guns would be a great start, don't you think?  But how to stem the tide of suicides, often committed with legally owned guns?  Would it matter?  A gun is simply an easier way to accomplish a goal by a person who has lost hope.  If not guns, they would find another method, I would imagine.

 

I don't disagree with you that guns are used to kill more people than external terrorism.  But bear in mind, that if that terrorism is ever allowed to gain a foothold on our shores, gun deaths, cancer, heart disease, and medical errors combined will be eclipsed in number.

 

 

I am not sure that is true. There is nothing impeding terrorism from gaining a foothold on our shores. In fact, we've been dealing with terrorism for several decades, back to the days of the Unabomber, and arguably, the days of the assassination of political figures.

 

Even if that is true, it still does not detract from the need of recognizing, addressing, and acting upon the deaths caused by guns. When you look at the mass shootings our country has come to accept as natural, they are all acts of terrorism involving guns. 

 

 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Well, we can agree on that, for sure.  Terrorists are the ones using guns to kill people.  Guns are not the problem, they are just the tools used by the terrorists.  People who do not respect the lives of others, i.e. terrorists, are the real problem.  (You kind of negated the theory that there are less terrorist deaths than gun deaths by saying that those committing murder with guns are in fact terrorists, but that's ok.  I think we are saying the same thing from different directions.)

 

 

36 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

I am not sure that is true. There is nothing impeding terrorism from gaining a foothold on our shores. In fact, we've been dealing with terrorism for several decades, back to the days of the Unabomber, and arguably, the days of the assassination of political figures.

 

Even if that is true, it still does not detract from the need of recognizing, addressing, and acting upon the deaths caused by guns. When you look at the mass shootings our country has come to accept as natural, they are all acts of terrorism involving guns.

 

 

 

 

[ready4ONE 5,400]

23 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

Well, we can agree on that, for sure.  Terrorists are the ones using guns to kill people.  Guns are not the problem, they are just the tools used by the terrorists.  People who do not respect the lives of others, i.e. terrorists, are the real problem.  (You kind of negated the theory that there are less terrorist deaths than gun deaths by saying that those committing murder with guns are in fact terrorists, but that's ok.  I think we are saying the same thing from different directions.)

 

 

 

 

It is a little silly to call perpetrator's of gun violence terrorists since terrorist is a definable word in the English language. It appears to be an attempt at getting around the original argument about gun deaths, and injuries, in the US completely eclipsing terrorist attack deaths and injuries. Then adding medical deaths to completely obscure the discussion about lack of concern over gun carnage being very much tied to being overly concerned about terrorist attack carnage.

 

Kind of silly to say all three should not be of any concern, they should be. But gun carnage is most similar to terrorist attack carnage, medical deaths are a completely different issue with zero comparison beyond deaths or injuries.

 

Being completely blase about gun carnage, while hyping fear of terrorist attacks is the focus of the discussion.

[IAMX 3,055]

14 minutes ago, ready4ONE said:

It is a little silly to call perpetrator's of gun violence terrorists since terrorist is a definable word in the English language. It appears to be an attempt at getting around the original argument about gun deaths, and injuries, in the US completely eclipsing terrorist attack deaths and injuries. Then adding medical deaths to completely obscure the discussion about lack of concern over gun carnage being very much tied to being overly concerned about terrorist attack carnage.

 

Kind of silly to say all three should not be of any concern, they should be. But gun carnage is most similar to terrorist attack carnage, medical deaths are a completely different issue with zero comparison beyond deaths or injuries.

 

Being completely blase about gun carnage, while hyping fear of terrorist attacks is the focus of the discussion.

This is merely a convenient argument to try and restrict an explicit Constitutional freedom. 

 

If the left cared that much about violence and violent crimes:

 

- They wouldn't be advocating and celebrating attacking people who offend and disagree with them.

- They wouldn't be focusing so much on blacks being victims under the premise of white cops, instead focusing on the over 90% of cases where its other blacks, and advocate blacks stop acting violently..

- They'd stop supporting organizations that likewise advocate violent crime, such as BLM and Antifa.

 

They can demonize and conveniently hyperfocus on guns all they like, but when they are advocates of violence upon others, they lost the moral high ground, and no one should be listening to them talk about their problems with violence, whether it be with guns or anything else.