Immigration & Racism

[IAMX 3,055]

14 minutes ago, Beachlover said:

That you leave a physical abusing husband doesn't mean you have to be ok with a mentally abusing husband because it's less painful.

 

I have encountered ignorant people through out my whole life who have said the most stupid and offensive things. People from different cultures, white, colored, religious, non religious. I could have let that be an influence on my life, I choose not too.

 

 

Key about living in these western countries is the choice of leaving someone (without being justifiably murdered), and even foundations of support to battered spouses. Something the Islamic world doesn't even fathom. When it comes to womens rights they're back in the 1800s, when it comes to gay rights, go back even further. That's why it's funny to me that leftists placate to and baby a religion fully knowing what liberalism had to accomplish just to attain these rights in the western world.

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3 minutes ago, IAMX said:

Key about living in these western countries is the choice of leaving someone (without being justifiably murdered), and even foundations of support to battered spouses. Something the Islamic world doesn't even fathom. When it comes to womens rights they're back in the 1800s, when it comes to gay rights, go back even further. That's why it's funny to me that leftists placate to and baby a religion fully knowing what liberalism had to accomplish just to attain these rights in the western world.

The main mistake people make is talking about the "Islamic World". Maybe that's why some folks think that Muslim is a race :-)

Turkey is a country with mostly Muslims ( officially religion and state are separated) but it has/had a gay pride and several transsexual celebrities. Meaning there is not such a thing as the Islamic World, SA is not comparable to Iran or to Turkey and neither to Morocco. All those countries have their own different cultures, customs and languages.

[IAMX 3,055]

11 minutes ago, Beachlover said:

The main mistake people make is talking about the "Islamic World". Maybe that's why some folks think that Muslim is a race :-)

Turkey is a country with mostly Muslims ( officially religion and state are separated) but it has/had a gay pride and several transsexual celebrities. Meaning there is not such a thing as the Islamic World, SA is not comparable to Iran or to Turkey and neither to Morocco. All those countries have their own different cultures, customs and languages.

They can try and make it mean Islam is a race all they like. It doesn't make it so.

 

Regarding Turkey, did they not just recently ban gay pride parades? Did they not just attack protesters protesting this ban? Doesn't sound like Turkey is that great to me for gays. 

 

Can't imagine the headlines in the US and Canada if that happened here.

 

We're talking completely different worlds, the western world vs. the Islamic one. And that's fine if they want to live in the 17th century, just don't bring that stuff here. We don't want it.

Edited August 19, 2017 by IAMX

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31 minutes ago, IAMX said:

They can try and make it mean Islam is a race all they like. It doesn't make it so.

 

Regarding Turkey, did they not just recently ban gay pride parades? Did they not just attack protesters protesting this ban? Doesn't sound like Turkey is that great to me for gays. 

 

Can't imagine the headlines in the US and Canada if that happened here.

 

We're talking completely different worlds, the western world vs. the Islamic one. And that's fine if they want to live in the 17th century, just don't bring that stuff here. We don't want it.

Have you ever been to one of those countries? I can guarantee you that it's not living in the 1700's. Yes certain areas they are very undeveloped ( but FYI, some Europeans think the same about America still living in the 50"s, do you think they are right?). But other areas are as modern and progressive as some Western countries.

 

Yes Turkey banned the gay parade, but my point is that at some point it was possible (Erdogan changed that) even when it wasn't possible in certain Western countries.

 

Don't worry, no one is bringing anything to America, but you can't ignore the fact that globalization will change cultures, yes even the American.

[IAMX 3,055]

8 minutes ago, Beachlover said:

Have you ever been to one of those countries? I can guarantee you that it's not living in the 1700's. Yes certain areas they are very undeveloped ( but FYI, some Europeans think the same about America still living in the 50"s, do you think they are right?). But other areas are as modern and progressive as some Western countries.

 

Yes Turkey banned the gay parade, but my point is that at some point it was possible (Erdogan changed that) even when it wasn't possible in certain Western countries.

 

Don't worry, no one is bringing anything to America, but you can't ignore the fact that globalization will change cultures, yes even the American.

I've been to Turkey (on a trip from Greece), Kuwait, UAE, KSA.

 

I liked Kuwait.. though, at night in Kuwait City I saw as many in drag as I would see in SF on a daily basis. Sometimes one can't tell this is an Islamic country. In contrast to KSA and Turkey.. which are less secular and have substantial amount of homophobia and sexism, to put it nicely. To Turkey's credit they are more advanced socially than countries like KSA, but that isn't saying much. People still regularly get killed there for the terrible crime of being gay.

 

Regarding globalization, to be honest that is of little relevance. The USA has long been a country that is made up of people from various cultural backgrounds. People bringing their culture is/has never been the problem. Their lack of integration and assimilation to basic cultural rights and values where they move to, on the other hand, is a place where no bargain needs to be struck. The advice, necessarily, is, adapt.. respect laws and customs (as every country logically requires), or move back. Not "I'll move to ____ region and expect them to cater to me because I'm foreign and special".

 

Due to the increasing amounts of terrorism being done by Islamic extremists, fostered in virtually every country run by the Muslim religion, rightfully we should be scrutinizing people of the Muslim religion, who want to come to western countries, more aggressively, and tolerate far less.

Edited August 19, 2017 by IAMX

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3 minutes ago, IAMX said:

I've been to Turkey (on a trip from Greece), Kuwait, UAE, KSA.

 

I liked Kuwait.. though, at night in Kuwait City I saw as many in drag as I would see in SF on a daily basis. Sometimes one can't tell this is an Islamic country. In contrast to KSA and Turkey.. which are less secular and have substantial amount of homophobia and sexism, to put it nicely. To Turkey's credit they are more advanced socially than countries like KSA, but that isn't saying much. People still regularly get killed there for the terrible crime of being gay.

 

Regarding globalization, to be honest that is of little relevance. The USA has long been a country that is made up of people from various cultural backgrounds. People bringing their culture is/has never been the problem. Their lack of integration and assimilation to basic cultural rights and values where they move to, on the other hand, is a place where no bargain needs to be struck. The advice, necessarily, is, adapt or move back. 

 

Due to the increasing amounts of terrorism being done by Islamic extremists, fostered in virtually every country run by the Muslim religion, rightfully we should be scrutinizing people of the Muslim religion, who want to come to western countries, more aggressively, and tolerate far less.

How do you think that's going to work out? Scrutinizing people of Muslim religion? Are you aware that for example the terrorists in Barcelona weren't showing any Muslim behavior at all?

They didn't visit mosques, they drank, went to brothels and did all kind of things a Muslim doesnt. Besides, they were living in Spain probably their whole life( didn't look into that). So I'm really curious how you think scrutinizing Muslims will look like. 

 

[IAMX 3,055]

12 minutes ago, Beachlover said:

How do you think that's going to work out? Scrutinizing people of Muslim religion? Are you aware that for example the terrorists in Barcelona weren't showing any Muslim behavior at all?

They didn't visit mosques, they drank, went to brothels and did all kind of things a Muslim doesnt. Besides, they were living in Spain probably their whole life( didn't look into that). So I'm really curious how you think scrutinizing Muslims will look like. 

 

Many Muslims do in fact do stuff that is contrary to their religion. 

 

Just like Christians. 

 

It really isn't possible to follow any religion to the T. 

 

That's what makes religion a joke in the first place. People only follow their religion as much as they subjectively feel compelled to. Whether or not there really is a creator of the beauty and complexity of life and the universe (I don't know, I can't say for sure one way or another), just one of the many reasons why religions are a farce.

 

Western countries realized this, hence why secularism is the prevailing method of approaching religion. If people want to brainwash themselves into believing these religions (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Satanism, Paganism, etc.), they have every right to, but 1) they still need to adapt to the laws and customs of the country they're moving to and 2) understand the fact that their beliefs don't need to be respected or catered to by anyone else.

Edited August 19, 2017 by IAMX

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Just now, IAMX said:

Many Muslims do in fact do stuff that is contrary to their religion. 

 

Just like Christians. 

 

It really isn't possible to follow any religion to the T. 

 

That's what makes religion a joke in the first place. People only follow their religion as much as they subjectively feel compelled to. Whether or not there really is a creator of the beauty and complexity of life and the universe, just one of the many reasons why religions are a farce.

 

Western countries realized this, hence why secularism is what's followed. If people want to brainwash themselves into believing these religions (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Satanism, Paganism, etc.), they have every right to, but 1) they still need to adapt to the laws and customs of the country they're moving to and 2) understand the fact that their beliefs don't need to be respected or catered to by anyone else.

Lol, I do agree that when people move to a country they have to respect and follow the laws. I also believe that if a person is convinced that the laws/culture etc of a country collide with his believes, he should do some self-reflection and consider moving elsewhere where he can feel at home.

 

Life is to short to waste it surrounded by people you don't want to be with.

 

But it still doesn't answer my question, how do you determine if someone is a Muslim? Do you look at their names? How they look? Where they are born? Or are we going to dig in their personal lives? More then is already happening?

 

Again, actions don't mean a thing. Some people consider themselves being Muslim and don't do anything that supports that, some like to show it in the way they look and behave and everything in between.

 

 

[IAMX 3,055]

28 minutes ago, Beachlover said:

Lol, I do agree that when people move to a country they have to respect and follow the laws. I also believe that if a person is convinced that the laws/culture etc of a country collide with his believes, he should do some self-reflection and consider moving elsewhere where he can feel at home.

 

Life is to short to waste it surrounded by people you don't want to be with.

 

But it still doesn't answer my question, how do you determine if someone is a Muslim? Do you look at their names? How they look? Where they are born? Or are we going to dig in their personal lives? More then is already happening?

 

Again, actions don't mean a thing. Some people consider themselves being Muslim and don't do anything that supports that, some like to show it in the way they look and behave and everything in between.

 

 

Most of your post seems very logical. I will say that firstly.

 

Regarding identifying Muslims.. from MENA, Islam is the dominating religion. In the vast majority of these countries they can't even tolerate other sects of their own Muslim religion (Sunni vs. Shiite vs. Kurds, etc.), so it's well understood the unlikelihood they're dealing with an atheist who is more likely to respect secular laws and customs. So, right off the bat, that's a huge population of Muslims that can be extremely scrutinized. 

 

Then there are other countries, like in Eastern/SE Asia, Central Africa, and so on where they share space with other religions (like Half Muslim, Half Christian.. or varying amounts of Muslim and Buddhist, Muslim and Sikh, Muslim and Hindu, Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu, and so on. Additional scrutiny needs to be placed there if terrorism has been originating from these countries. If not, I don't see any great reason for concern. You have countries rife with Islamic people (Albania) that aren't generally known to sponsor terrorism, but may be worth extra scrutiny in light of all the refugees.

 

Then you have European countries that have allowed unfettered Islamic people in, and likewise have increased the amount of terrorism occurring there. Examples: Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc. So I'd say many of these European countries now deserve the extra scrutiny, especially for obvious Muslims that don't have a long track record that can be traced and verified, in fact, I'd say those who don't have a long history that can be verified, by default they should be denied as the risk is too high.

 

There are plenty of Muslims in Canada, UK, etc. who have lived their entire lives in these countries, have no criminal history, etc., and don't throw up any red flags. Logically, they are minimally scrutinized (on par with most people), even if occasionally given a hard time. Keep in mind that scrutiny can be for very subtle things. For example, a buddy of mine was scrutinized because he hadn't shaved for a week and could be interpreted as "unkempt". Seems silly, but we're not in the age of accepting this kind of risk anymore.. at least, in the US.

Edited August 19, 2017 by IAMX

[-Trinity- 513]

13 minutes ago, IAMX said:

Most of your post seems very logical. I will say that firstly.

 

Regarding identifying Muslims.. from MENA, Islam is the dominating religion. In the vast majority of these countries they can't even tolerate other sects of their own Muslim religion (Sunni vs. Shiite vs. Kurds, etc.), so it's well understood the unlikelihood they're dealing with an atheist who is more likely to respect secular laws and customs. So, right off the bat, that's a huge population of Muslims that can be extremely scrutinized. 

 

Then there are other countries, like in Eastern/SE Asia, Central Africa, and so on where they share space with other religions (like Half Muslim, Half Christian.. or varying amounts of Muslim and Buddhist, Muslim and Sikh, Muslim and Hindu, Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu, and so on. Additional scrutiny needs to be placed there if terrorism has been originating from these countries. If not, I don't see any great reason for concern. You have countries rife with Islamic people (Albania) that aren't generally known to sponsor terrorism, but may be worth extra scrutiny in light of all the refugees.

 

Then you have European countries that have allowed unfettered Islamic people in, and likewise have increased the amount of terrorism occurring there. Examples: Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc. So I'd say many of these European countries now deserve the extra scrutiny, especially for obvious Muslims that don't have a long track record that can be traced and verified, in fact, I'd say those who don't have a long history that can be verified, by default they should be denied as the risk is too high.

 

There are plenty of Muslims in Canada, UK, etc. who have lived their entire lives in these countries, have no criminal history, etc., and don't throw up any red flags. Logically, they are minimally scrutinized (on par with most people), even if occasionally given a hard time. Keep in mind that scrutiny can be for very subtle things. For example, a buddy of mine was scrutinized because he hadn't shaved for a week and could be interpreted as "unkempt". Seems silly, but we're not in the age of accepting this kind of risk anymore.. at least, in the US.

It's easy to get caught up into being emotional and feeling hurt, which is just a normal human response. But personally rather choose to be rational, at least as much as possible.

 

What you are saying is not going to work unless the US is willing to violate some human rights. No it's not a right to move to America ( or to any other country  for that matter) and those who make the choice to migrate to this country, should be prepared that they will be scrutinized. But to what extent? I mean what else can be done besides extensive back ground checks, and letting the petitioner and beneficary providing tons of evidence? In my opinion it's a slippery slope.

And you will never have the guarantee that a person won't radicilize. What about Americans who convert to Islam for example?  

The problem Europe is facing is coming from mostly 2nd, 3th generation. Their parents came to Europe for a better life and never imagined that their offspring would turn out to become terrorists...a doctor, a lawyer yes but not a terrorists.

 

I understand the problem the US is trying to avoid, and believe it or not most of the MENA countries struggle with the same problem. None of them want terrorist attacks, the media doesn't cover it, because it's not "interesting" and it doesn't fullfil the narrative, but they work hard to dismantle terrorist cells. Every day.

 

 

[-Trinity- 513]

I have to say as a second generation whoes parents migrated from a MENA country to the EU, I have ambivalent thoughts about scrutinizing people. 

[IAMX 3,055]

4 minutes ago, Beachlover said:

It's easy to get caught up into being emotional and feeling hurt, which is just a normal human response. But personally rather choose to be rational, at least as much as possible.

 

What you are saying is not going to work unless the US is willing to violate some human rights. No it's not a right to move to America ( or to any other country  for that matter) and those who make the choice to migrate to this country, should be prepared that they will be scrutinized. But to what extent? I mean what else can be done besides extensive back ground checks, and letting the petitioner and beneficary providing tons of evidence? In my opinion it's a slippery slope.

And you will never have the guarantee that a person won't radicilize. What about Americans who convert to Islam for example?  

The problem Europe is facing is coming from mostly 2nd, 3th generation. Their parents came to Europe for a better life and never imagined that their offspring would turn out to become terrorists...a doctor, a lawyer yes but not a terrorists.

 

I understand the problem the US is trying to avoid, and believe it or not most of the MENA countries struggle with the same problem. None of them want terrorist attacks, the media doesn't cover it, because it's not "interesting" and it doesn't fullfil the narrative, but they work hard to dismantle terrorist cells. Every day.

 

 

If we're going to be frank, I think part of what allowed 9/11 to happen was the fact that scrutiny was applied, could have been applied further, and wasn't.

 

Likewise, when you have extremists living in your community for such a long time, I think it speaks to a greater problem I will identify as follows:

 

- People nowadays are even less social than before. People tend to lock themselves away in their houses and never socialize. As such, they are far more prone to "freak out" in public, they are far more prone to social problems like panic disorders, and they're far more prone to go psycho over social occurrences that people who are around others more often would be able to handle more easily.

 

What this has to do with terrorism is that, in people keeping away from others, they're inadvertently bypassing one of the best methods of identifying extremism.. when getting to know people, it's a lot easier to identify extremist elements before they can foster, or to get those elements on the radar of the community, and thus, the local and national authorities. And the only thing one needs to do is get out and socialize with those around them.

 

But people are lazy, they want the government to be doing all the effort. That's how you got all two dozen 9/11 hijackers in the US for many years not being on community radars, some of whom learned to fly in the US -- no alarm bells?? Sometimes it can be explained with simple politeness, in other cases, or in my opinion, I'd say in many cases nowadays, it's due to increasing unsociable attitudes. In some ways we can attribute that to people sitting in front of their computer and TVs all day, but I personally dismiss this for myself mainly because of how I do things. I post on many forums, some political, some consumerist/product, some local community forums. All my posts for half of yesterday was from work. Then I picked up wife and daughter, and we spent 2 hours at the Keg to eat, where I not only posted more (via tablet and phone) but socialized with the people around us (the server we had from Ukraine, the group in the large table next to us from Italy), then we went shopping at Costco, filled up the car, went to IKEA, then Walmart. I occasionally posted more, but I also socialized with people along the way. So in this case, my increased time around computers hasn't affected my ability to socialize and mingle with others. Doing so, I also put myself out there for criticism, which helps me moderate my behavior. However, for many people, they shut themselves off from social environments, which manifests itself when they do find themselves in that environment, they freak out. Staying away from people likewise allows extremist elements to foster.

 

So while I could suggest that government do more scrutinizing, it's also up to the populace to do their part as well, not to presume everyone that "looks" like they might be Muslim as a suspect and treat them that way, but get to know people, know who you're around, and if there's anything suspicious about it, talk to other people about it, and if necessary, report to authorities.

[Mcgullicudy 3]

They arrest men for "committing homosexual acts."

 

http://lgbtweekly.com/2016/04/10/70000-sign-petition-in-support-of-men-arrested-under-moroccos-anti-gay-law/

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1 minute ago, Mcgullicudy said:

They arrest men for "committing homosexual acts."

 

http://lgbtweekly.com/2016/04/10/70000-sign-petition-in-support-of-men-arrested-under-moroccos-anti-gay-law/

Do a search on gay cruising in Morocco.

Again: it's forbidden by law, but the authorities know why European gay men come to Morocco. It's publicly well known. 

 

 

 

[IAMX 3,055]

4 minutes ago, Beachlover said:

Do a search on gay cruising in Morocco.

Again: it's forbidden by law, but the authorities know why European gay men come to Morocco. It's publicly well known. 

 

 

 

For those of us who can't take hints (myself), can you elaborate? I know I shouldn't be, but I'm interested. 

Edited August 19, 2017 by IAMX