Fighting for documents from Canada for N400

[Going through 5,671]

If I only knew...hindsight is 20/20 as they say...

 

tl:dr - facing an uphill battle to get court certified documents from Canada for a 23 year old case.

 

Those who want to read - 

 

I've been struggling to get my hands on a court statement detailing that records related to a 1993 charge in Canada have been destroyed.  In fact, USCIS was already given notice that all info was destroyed back in 2005 when I submitted the court sealed letter then.  Foolish me, I hadn't thought 12 years down the road I would be applying for citizenship and that I would have to get my hands on this letter again.

 

Thankfully, I kept a plain photocopy of it, as well as a plain photocopy of the Toronto Police letter stating the arrest record had been purged because of how old the case was (I had submitted a copy of the police letter back in 2005 as well, even though it was not required to send that specific letter but I figured more is better.)  Because I filed online, I was able to upload the "old" letters and wrote on the cover letter that originals were sent when the charge was disclosed during my i-485 back in 2005, I have requested new originals to bring to my interview yadda yadda yadda.

 

So, on my merry way, I sent away for another set of these two documents thinking "ok I need to get them again".  Last week I received the "new" Toronto Police letter which was good.  The problem has been getting the court letter again.  For those of you who might not know...getting a court letter from Canada while not physically IN Canada is very difficult, at best.  Near impossible when the charge is 23 years old.   There is no online way to file for it, there is no explanation on how to proceed with a request if you are outside of the country, there is no information on what info they need to process requests, just a simple short and sweet "contact the court clerk with your request" and the phone number.  I contacted the court clerk, explained I live in the US, and he told me to scan him my ID as well as the old letter, and he'd work on it.  I asked him how to submit payment and the fees and he said "just a few bucks, and we'll figure that out later". After not hearing back after 2 weeks that the case was even under processing and how to pay for the service, I attempted to contact him via email asking if he needed any other information.  No answer.  I attempted to contact him via phone and left messages.  No answer.  

 

Now, keep in mind, I'm not phoning or emailing to rush him in any way, or even to ask the ever-annoying questions clerks must get of "is it ready yet???".  My reasoning for contacting him has been to find out if my request is even under processing at all and how to submit payment.... Being a somewhat reasonable person, I reasoned that processing probably wouldn't have begun if payment was never submitted, right?  But hard to submit payment when you don't know the actual cost and how to actually submit it since there's no real info on the Ontario courts website, except for when one is paying in person and picking it up in person.

 

Another two weeks go by and still no response by him.  Why didn't I ask someone else, you ask?  Because I was told by other people in the office (while leaving a message for this one guy) that he's the only one I can deal with---they wouldn't even tell me info about the payment either because they had no idea themselves.  

 

Finally---I call one day and the lady puts me on hold to talk to him.  Imagine my surprise when less than 3 minutes later some other man picks up the phone and literally starts yelling at me as soon as he picks up that these things take time, the other man will finish my case when he can, etc.  Each time I try to politely explain exactly why I'm calling (again, not to ask about processing time, but if it's even BEING processed considering I never paid upfront, and never heard back during my initial email of documents to see if he needed anything else, and never being asked for payment/told how to pay) he cuts me off before I can get a full sentence out.  I wasn't even able to get across to him that I am living out of the country when he barked at me that I "should just come down there instead of phoning if I'm in such a hurry"...so reasonable me believes he's not even understanding why I called in the first place.  After yelling at me some more he abruptly ends the phone call with the ever-popular "He'll get back to you as soon as he can".  Yeah....right.

 

So after wracking my brain for a whole day, reasonable me thought "hey, since I know the records have been destroyed...and I just need a letter stating that instead of actual court documents detailing everything under the sun...why not try a Freedom Of Information request through the courts?  No go.  They tell me they don't handle FOIA requests when it comes to final disposition matters and to contact the court clerk.  After I tell her my short-version story thus far, she gives me the phone number to the Issues Coordinator for the courts (don't ask, I have no idea what he really does).  I phone him, he's very nice and patient and listens to my entire story and sympathizes with me while telling me there's nothing he can do to help me, but I can email the Attorney General.  And that if I email them, they then forward my issue to the county clerk ---the same guy who has never responded to my messages before.  **headdesk**

 

No worries, the Issues Coordinator tells me...the issue is mine, yet by the Attorney General making the inquiry on my behalf he is mandated to respond to the AG within a certain time frame to answer my question on how to pay for their service, and whether my request can even be handled, if at all.  What is the time frame for him to respond to the AG?  No idea, he says.  Will I hear back from the AG after sending them the initial email confirming that they've even read/seen it?  No idea, he says.

 

All of this just to find out if I am even under processing for the court letter I need.  And how to give them my money.

 

I went ahead yesterday and emailed the Attorney General at their generic email.  Thought I would receive at least an auto-response the email has been received, but nope, nothing (hey at this point anything would be a comfort!). Today I phoned and the customer service rep told me there is a 15-day turnaround time for them to even respond to emails as "received".

 

Advice to others:  If you are getting court documents for any reason, get more than one certified copy.  In fact get at least 5 if you can.  

 

If I'd known back then in 2005 that I'd still need them now, I would have done that...I'm seriously contemplating going down to Canada just to get this letter, but not sure what the turnaround time would be even in person if I did that.  I'm also contemplating getting a friend to get it for me...but I have yet to find any information on how to do that too (ie. do I need to have my ID notarized, does my friend need a special authorization form filled out by me, etc.) because there's not a whole lot of info about that on their website other than "you can authorize someone to pick it up for you".

 

I'm hoping to the high heavens that if I never get this document, the IO will accept my photocopy of the original 2005 letter..especially since the original certified one is already in my file.  I have proof of me sending the emails out, as well as the documents I scanned originally to the clerk, and meticulous notes detailing my struggle to get this.

 

I'm now at the point of considering paying a lot of money to one of those Court Document Retrieval companies based in Canada to get it for me and ship it, but I don't even know if those companies actually can and succeed in doing so.  I contacted a couple of them to ask general questions, so we'll see I guess.

 

I really don't know what else I can do to get this letter.

I also detest USCIS asking for documentation they already have had given to them twice over.  I had to submit the original when I filed the i-485, and then was asked by the IO for another original during my interview for the i-485 about 8 months later.  In fact when I was asked to submit the 2nd set of originals (again) during my i-485 interview, MY FILE WAS OPEN TO THE PAGE WHERE THE FIRST ORIGINALS WERE PLACED.  I watched the IO literally take my 2nd original letters (with the same date on them, mind you) and place them right on top of the 1st ones.  

 

[Ontarkie 14,221]

Oh what a mess. Every time I see someone asking about the court records I tell them get multiple copies while you are still there. I was recently told that once you give them one copy you don't need another as times have changed. Sadly you and another member recently have discovered you do need them. 

 

When I was just starting the process another fellow Canadian warned everyone to get several copies. I do the same now, sorry you were not warned 12 yrs ago

[Going through 5,671]

5 minutes ago, Ontarkie said:

Oh what a mess. Every time I see someone asking about the court records I tell them get multiple copies while you are still there. I was recently told that once you give them one copy you don't need another as times have changed. Sadly you and another member recently have discovered you do need them. 

 

When I was just starting the process another fellow Canadian warned everyone to get several copies. I do the same now, sorry you were not warned 12 yrs ago

I hear ya.  I ended up sending away for FOIA requests to both borders for exit/entry info because most of my dates were approximated in my application.  Surprisingly, I just got the US one today as an electronic download (I requested it mailed, but I'll take what I can get), which was faster than I thought. Every time I see a Canadian talking about applying for Naturalization "in a few years", I make sure to tell them to start keeping track and proof of travel dates because we don't normally get our passports stamped.

 

I'm just amazed at how little information there is about getting the court letter on an official Canadian government website...you'd think there'd be something detailing out-of-country requests and how to submit them, at least.

[Going through 5,671]

Update:  I got an email this afternoon from the Attorney General two business days after contacting them that they have reached out to Ontario Courts who will finalize my request within the next 1-2 weeks.  A few minutes later I received two emails from Ontario Courts apologizing for the lack of communication and securing payment from me.

 

It wasn't even under processing before today, apparently.  The guy had sat on it for an entire month. So if I hadn't gone over the clerk's head and complained to the Ministry it wouldn't have moved at all into the queue for processing.

 

My stress of waiting for the letter will end soon.  Now begins my stress of whether or not the clerk will properly prepare them (the charge was under my maiden name, not my married name)....I won't rest easy until the document is in my hot little hand.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Going through

[Going through 5,671]

Updating this for those interested..venting too, I guess.

 

Seems my journey is still ongoing---after the Attorney General contacted the Court Intake Supervisor regarding my complaint/concern, I (FINALLY) received an email from them on July 31st stating my papers would be processed and "completed either by the end of this week or early next week".  The court clerk sent me an email stating the same, as well as an email from his supervisor (the guy who yelled at me before) giving the same timeline, a few hours later on the same day.

 

Fast-forward to today when I called to find out if the paperwork has been completed in accordance to their own given timeline (I reasoned waiting an additional 10 days was long enough for something that would literally be handed to me right away if I appeared in person) ....and was told by the receptionist that "the clerk hasn't been in since last week, this entire week, probably won't be in tomorrow either."  She also couldn't (or chose not to) verify if my request was taken care of or even if my money order has been received by the court house.  To say I was shocked to find out the clerk who was supposed to have had it completed by this past Wednesday wasn't even AT WORK this entire time---since July 31st!!

 

Back on the phone to the Issues Coordinator who thankfully remembered my sordid story and said he could try to find out more information for me because he is also equally perplexed at how long this is taking and why no one else can provide this letter except for this one person who never responds to emails, never phones back, and never is at the office it now seems (*rolls eyes*).  He takes down my info again and calls me back roughly an hour later stating he can't actually talk to the Supervisor or the clerk (he originally told me he would have a conversation with them) and that all he could do at this point was just send an email to the office asking them to  "check up on it", that it's high-time it was completed, etc.

 

I sent my own email today to both the clerk and the Supervisor as well as left a phone message for the Supervisor asking him to call me back---no response from either (I didn't expect a response, as per usual track record).

 

Basically, an email sent to an office that never responds to emails...addressed to the Supervisor who yelled at me in the first place.

I seriously don't think I'll ever get this letter at this point now.  And the anxiety over this is now affecting my sleep for the past several weeks.

 

I am now wondering what my chances are if I never get this document, considering USCIS already has the certified originals from my i-485 in my file already relating to this old charge when I disclosed it then.  It's one thing to be screwed because of a past transgression----but to be screwed because you couldn't provide a second original of what they already know about?  

 

Someone hug me or pat my hand or something...because I'm making myself physically ill over this stress for the past 2 months to get this damn letter.

[Villanelle 4,122]

Sending you hugs 

 

[Going through 5,671]

6 minutes ago, Damara said:

Sending you hugs 

 

Appreciate it.  This stress is making me not sleep or eat...well, unless you call pints of ice-creaming "eating".

[Holt 73]

Hugs. Hope everything goes well. Those documents from governments and courts are hard to get.

Did you try to contact USCIS about this ?

[Going through 5,671]

1 minute ago, rlam57 said:

Hugs. Hope everything goes well. Those documents from governments and courts are hard to get.

Did you try to contact USCIS about this ?

They won't be able to help me acquire court documents...or you mean to ask them if I need to obtain them?  I have a feeling they'll tell me yes since it's a requirement to show at the interview (despite them already having it).

[Holt 73]

.

Edited August 10, 2017 by rlam57

[Going through 5,671]

What I don't get....is why the court clerk said he would (finally) work on it and have it out by a certain date---knowing full well he wasn't going to be in the office for 2 weeks...and then his own Supervisor stating the same thing, as though he wasn't aware of the guy going on vacation (or whatever).

 

Were they purposefully lying just to cover their butts since I complained to the Attorney General?

Are they purposefully playing games just to give me a run-around since day one 2 months ago?

 

I know, I sound paranoid.

[Holt 73]

Did you try to search with this term record request uscis

Edited August 10, 2017 by rlam57

[Going through 5,671]

6 minutes ago, rlam57 said:

Did you try to search with this term record request uscis

I had thought of requesting the return of original (certifiied) documents as well just to have them to re-submit during my interview.

But I've read here on the forums that such requests can have a 6-month turnaround time (it's likely my interview may be scheduled within the next 6 months), and have also heard that USCIS's usual reply to these requests is that they cannot return them because they must remain on file since an application is already pending.  So I think I'm screwed on filing a G884 for return of documents.

[Going through 5,671]

Today I ended up getting the court supervisor on the actual form---he apologized for the additional delay and stated the clerk handling my request has been out sick the entire two weeks...but he'd be back on Monday.

 

I asked him could someone else not take care of this today since it's been delayed over 2 months already, and then further delayed almost another two business weeks since the clerk never came back to work since July 31st.  He said he would ask if someone else who works under him can do the request (uhm...I doubt there's only one guy who handles procuring letters for the entire city of Toronto, but I digress).  He also said he would rip up the money order I sent since it's been so long of a delay.  I told him it was kind of him to do that, but I didn't care about the money being refunded at this point and he could go ahead and cash it, to which he understood and said he'd call me back in an hour.

 

Roughly an hour later he called back and said the letters were ready to be mailed out, and I asked to confirm all the info on it (AND IT'S A GOOD THING I DID), only to discover they had noted my birth date incorrectly, putting the date of disposition as my birth date instead.  He said he'd have it fixed and in the mail for me this afternoon.  

 

I'm still going to be stressed out until I actually receive these letters because I have yet to retain my faith in them...and I'm still shaking my head over what has taken almost two months to even get put under processing, turns out could literally have be completed in less than a hour by someone saving me from all of this undue stress and runaround.

 

Hopefully CanadaPost and USPS know what they're doing now...

Edited August 11, 2017 by Going through

[Going through 5,671]

Got my court letters today.

 

Opened the envelope.

 

Neither letter has the actual court seal on them.

 

Phoned the courthouse.

 

They FORGOT to seal them before mailing.

 

**headdesk**

 

 

He said he would do the new ones today (and check it over himself this time) before mailing.  I was literally shaking after I got off the phone with the Supervisor....all he kept stammering over and over again was "Ma'am, I'm sorry"