Issues and Problems

[Fandango 1,439]

I kinda read it as a passive aggressive dig at people. That's not what this was, right? Cos I can't see how this is helpful, or relevant, to the conversation.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I kinda read it as a passive aggressive dig at people. That's not what this was, right? Cos I can't see how this is helpful, or relevant, to the conversation.

No not at all... I think its very relevant to how Americans could and are perceived sometimes... I also was very surprised at how quick this post came down 2 years ago after it was posted... What was really interesting is that I never heard the word lawri9at before. or lwri9at.. I just felt that it was interesting. Sorry if its offensive. I think its very relevant in that this is a concept that is talked and laughed about and its about western women marrying foreigners. Not any harsher than some of the other stuff I have seen and shouldn't be offensive if it doesn't apply to a person.

I kinda read it as a passive aggressive dig at people. That's not what this was, right? Cos I can't see how this is helpful, or relevant, to the conversation.

What made it really offensive to me was that it was written by a woman not a guy...it was her opinion

[Fandango 1,439]

I kinda read it as a passive aggressive dig at people. That's not what this was, right? Cos I can't see how this is helpful, or relevant, to the conversation.

No not at all... I think its very relevant to how Americans could and are perceived sometimes... I also was very surprised at how quick this post came down 2 years ago after it was posted... What was really interesting is that I never heard the word lawri9at before. or lwri9at.. I just felt that it was interesting. Sorry if its offensive. I think its very relevant in that this is a concept that is talked and laughed about and its about western women marrying foreigners. Not any harsher than some of the other stuff I have seen and shouldn't be offensive if it doesn't apply to a person.

I kinda read it as a passive aggressive dig at people. That's not what this was, right? Cos I can't see how this is helpful, or relevant, to the conversation.

What made it really offensive to me was that it was written by a woman not a guy...it was her opinion

Oh ok, just seems a strange segueway.

Prolly not the most helpful of things to bring up in a thread with an older woman OP with a younger husband & visa complications though.

Edited April 24, 2007 by LisaD

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I kinda read it as a passive aggressive dig at people. That's not what this was, right? Cos I can't see how this is helpful, or relevant, to the conversation.

No not at all... I think its very relevant to how Americans could and are perceived sometimes... I also was very surprised at how quick this post came down 2 years ago after it was posted... What was really interesting is that I never heard the word lawri9at before. or lwri9at.. I just felt that it was interesting. Sorry if its offensive. I think its very relevant in that this is a concept that is talked and laughed about and its about western women marrying foreigners. Not any harsher than some of the other stuff I have seen and shouldn't be offensive if it doesn't apply to a person.

I kinda read it as a passive aggressive dig at people. That's not what this was, right? Cos I can't see how this is helpful, or relevant, to the conversation.

What made it really offensive to me was that it was written by a woman not a guy...it was her opinion

Oh ok, just seems a strange segueway.

Prolly not the most helpful of things to bring up in a thread about an older woman with a younger husband with visa complications though.

for all I know the girl could have written it out jealousy

I kinda read it as a passive aggressive dig at people. That's not what this was, right? Cos I can't see how this is helpful, or relevant, to the conversation.

No not at all... I think its very relevant to how Americans could and are perceived sometimes... I also was very surprised at how quick this post came down 2 years ago after it was posted... What was really interesting is that I never heard the word lawri9at before. or lwri9at.. I just felt that it was interesting. Sorry if its offensive. I think its very relevant in that this is a concept that is talked and laughed about and its about western women marrying foreigners. Not any harsher than some of the other stuff I have seen and shouldn't be offensive if it doesn't apply to a person.

I kinda read it as a passive aggressive dig at people. That's not what this was, right? Cos I can't see how this is helpful, or relevant, to the conversation.

What made it really offensive to me was that it was written by a woman not a guy...it was her opinion

Oh ok, just seems a strange segueway.

Prolly not the most helpful of things to bring up in a thread with an older woman OP with a younger husband & visa complications though.

yeah you are right

[aicha 0]

Personally - it did not bother me - it has nothing to do with me - it was a comment made by another person! Thank you for the concern.

[Fandango 1,439]

Personally - it did not bother me - it has nothing to do with me - it was a comment made by another person! Thank you for the concern.

Unfortunately, it does have to do with you in the respect that there are many people out there who see an age difference + foreign partner and will assume this is what's going on. Some of them may even be COs so you have to attack your defense to prove your case & counter ideas like this.

It just sucks to see it in black and white.

[aicha 0]

Personally - it did not bother me - it has nothing to do with me - it was a comment made by another person! Thank you for the concern.

Unfortunately, it does have to do with you in the respect that there are many people out there who see an age difference + foreign partner and will assume this is what's going on. Some of them may even be COs so you have to attack your defense to prove your case & counter ideas like this.

It just sucks to see it in black and white.

Okay - first off, let me explain. I do not let things like this bother me because I do not think like that. Yes, regretfully, there are a lot of people who think like that and it is horribly sad to know and see that! And also, I do not look at myself as an old woman - or a fat woman - or an ungly woman, so therefore, I was just saying I did not take it offensively. I understand other people's minds and ways of thinking, I may not agreee with their opinions and feel that that way of thinking is degrading to others, but I do understand it exists whether we like it or not. Your comment was understood - just wantedc you to know that.

[Fandango 1,439]

Personally - it did not bother me - it has nothing to do with me - it was a comment made by another person! Thank you for the concern.

Unfortunately, it does have to do with you in the respect that there are many people out there who see an age difference + foreign partner and will assume this is what's going on. Some of them may even be COs so you have to attack your defense to prove your case & counter ideas like this.

It just sucks to see it in black and white.

Okay - first off, let me explain. I do not let things like this bother me because I do not think like that. Yes, regretfully, there are a lot of people who think like that and it is horribly sad to know and see that! And also, I do not look at myself as an old woman - or a fat woman - or an ungly woman, so therefore, I was just saying I did not take it offensively. I understand other people's minds and ways of thinking, I may not agreee with their opinions and feel that that way of thinking is degrading to others, but I do understand it exists whether we like it or not. Your comment was understood - just wantedc you to know that.

That's a great attitude, but I was not insinuating older means old. Just wanted to clarify!

[aicha 0]

Personally - it did not bother me - it has nothing to do with me - it was a comment made by another person! Thank you for the concern.

Unfortunately, it does have to do with you in the respect that there are many people out there who see an age difference + foreign partner and will assume this is what's going on. Some of them may even be COs so you have to attack your defense to prove your case & counter ideas like this.

It just sucks to see it in black and white.

Okay - first off, let me explain. I do not let things like this bother me because I do not think like that. Yes, regretfully, there are a lot of people who think like that and it is horribly sad to know and see that! And also, I do not look at myself as an old woman - or a fat woman - or an ungly woman, so therefore, I was just saying I did not take it offensively. I understand other people's minds and ways of thinking, I may not agreee with their opinions and feel that that way of thinking is degrading to others, but I do understand it exists whether we like it or not. Your comment was understood - just wantedc you to know that.

That's a great attitude, but I was not insinuating older means old. Just wanted to clarify!

It is fine - I know you were not implying that - so do not worry about clarifying - really it is fine - I did understand you. Believe me I know when someone is insinuating something - and never did I feel that from you - okay? - okay!

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

well I see it a little differently Aicha.. I think they are insinuating it and I will personally tell you several things.

Perhaps not with other mid east countries, but with Morocco and Algeria in particular, there are true love relationships with younger men and older women. This is ever documented in North African based literature such as Albert Camus EXILE in the kingdom in the vignette AN ADULTEROUS WOMAN. It is shown in several of Kateb Yacine's work. While it may not be completely culturally accepted, younger men and older women have been doing their thing in Morocco and Algeria behind the scenes for years. In Algeria there are tragically beautiful stories of older women and younger men and the love they have shared.

Many of these girls are younger married to Moroccans in particular and of course they are going to go way out of their way to somehow "save you" from getting used for a greencard or whatever. I know several older American women used for papers by these guys. Some have had tragic results with the woman almost commiting suicide over it... ( he got his papers and split the minute he hit the airport) But this is all how you look at it. If you can see life as a big adventure. If you can look at the bigger picture, I encourage you to drink in NORTH AFRICAN culture independent of this marriage and write about your time in Morocco. This isnt about this marriage. Its about the framework of your life story.

I have written several books about Algeria and I will tell you that not all my experiences in dealing with North Africans have been pleasant. I have a child with one and I have truly seen the butt ### ugly side of some North Africans. But in reading these posts, somehow I find a very strong admiration for you. You are loving without boundaries. You had children.. I am sure you have had heartbreak after heartbreak in the US and I think that you went in many ways to find yourself. I found myself in North Africa.. in Tunisia and Algeria 6 years ago and the experience changed my life.

Yes.. maybe youare older and overweight but some North Africans are incredibly turned on by blonde bigger women. You may be the hottest thing in the world to a Moroccan man. I know moroccan men WITH PAPERS here in the usa that love a big butt and boobs and die for it. These moronic women who come on these boards that are supposed to be for immigration support are NOT doing that. They can state facts but bashing and bashing is just dumb. And I encourage my friends who have been used for papers to seek out friendships with Moroccans and Algerians that HAVE their papers to heal their hearts. I have already been admonished, attacked and patronized since I came on the boards just 2 weeks ago.. told I dont know this and that and frankly I am dumbfounded by the arrogance of some of these women. Particularly wives of Moroccans who want to some how tell other people that their relationships are not valid and say it in an abusive manner. Or somehow ( an american girl of ARAB descent) who came on here telling me she had all the answers because she was arab. My ### I say to her ( If I was algerian.. i would say something more funny like i give you my )*))|)) but I am not a guy so I cant say that hahahhahaha..

Anyway...

Yes particularly in these North African cultures there is a culture of lawri9at which is marriage for papers and its very laughed about but honestly some of these young women that you see that feel so smug in their marriages will get kicked to the curb ( as evidenced by all the women in Orlando that USED to be married to Moroccans that work at EPCOT> In fact we have the largesst expat community in the US except New York because most of the large scale immigration by Moroccans took place with the opening of Disney World Epcot pavillion. I can tell you story after story of YOUNG WOMEN married and dumped after the guy got his papers ( usually citizenship... they wait till then so they can bring a moroccan wife over and the american cannot revoke it) so dont listen to these so called experts. You as an older wife are at about the same odds as them cause the reality is none of know what is in someone s head anyway.

I have seen the butt ### horrible sides of North Africans ( my daughter is Moroccan by the way) and I know them inside and out and I will tell you ... you need to just try hard to be happy and live your life. Enjoy your time in Morocco. Write down and blog the things you see and hear and take lots of picture and even if somehow this relationship turns south.. which it may or not.. you have lived loved laughed made love ...eaten the best things.. and lived a full life....

I am sure you are doing wonderful things for his family and I am sure you are really making some fun friendships with Moroccans and enjoying the food .. the cooking ... the culture.. They are an interesting bunch.. The man I love from Algeria's mother is Chleuh and I will cross the border on my imminent trip to the west of algeria...His family is an eccentric crazy bunch.... his 4 uncles played violins on rai records and played with KHALED ( cheb khaled.. houari benchenet)

By the way one of my friends Cheb Nasro.. ask your husband about him... told me when he was 19 he was desperately in love with a 40 year old woman and had a long relationship with her.. Clandestine and perhaps politically incorrect....life is about individual choice and living bravely....

Another author who writes incredibly beautiful stories is ASSJA DJEBAR

I would be glad to send you things in Morocco that are in English . She is an Algerian female writer at the University of New York

Live a big life Aicha and don't kiss ### to any one. You have the right to love as you like and be happy...

There are and will always be exceptions to every rule ... the trick is to live your live like you will die tomorrow

My little Moroccan beauty

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Jane Digby has been called "one of the most remarkable women of the nineteenth century'. A celebrated beauty, she was married at seventeen to Lord Ellenborough (later Viceroy of India). He was twice her age and within a few years she left him for an Austrian prince resulting in one of England's most scandalous divorces. When the Prince deserted her she became the mistress and confidante of King Ludwig I of Bavaria, marrying for convenience a German baron who worshipped her. Subsequently she fell in love with a young Greek count who fought her husband in a duel while eloping with her.

After discovering that her Greek husband was unfaithful, and heartbroken at the death of her six-year-old son, she became an inveterate traveller in the Orient. For a time she became the mistress of an Albanian general and was thrilled to share his rough outdoor life as queen of his brigand army, living in caves, riding fiery Arab horses and hunting game in the mountains for food; until she found that he too was unfaithful and left him on the spot.

Middle-aged but still stunningly beautiful, and vowing to renounce men, she headed for Syria where she met and married the love of her life, a Bedouin nobleman, Sheikh Medjuel el Mezrab who was twenty years her junior.

During the remainder of her life she adopted for six months of each year the exotic but uniquely harsh existence of a desert nomad living in the famous black goathair tents of Arabia; the remaining months she spent in the splendid palace she built for herself and Medjuel in Damascus. As wife to the Sheikh and mother to his tribe this passionate woman found not only genuine fulfilment but further adventures, all of which she committed each year to her diary

Bestselling biographer Mary S Lovell has produced from these diaries not only a sympathetic and dramatic portrait of a rare woman but a fascinating glimpse into the centuries-old tradition of the Bedouin that is now almost lost.

[aicha 0]

well I see it a little differently Aicha.. I think they are insinuating it and I will personally tell you several things.

Perhaps not with other mid east countries, but with Morocco and Algeria in particular, there are true love relationships with younger men and older women. This is ever documented in North African based literature such as Albert Camus EXILE in the kingdom in the vignette AN ADULTEROUS WOMAN. It is shown in several of Kateb Yacine's work. While it may not be completely culturally accepted, younger men and older women have been doing their thing in Morocco and Algeria behind the scenes for years. In Algeria there are tragically beautiful stories of older women and younger men and the love they have shared.

Many of these girls are younger married to Moroccans in particular and of course they are going to go way out of their way to somehow "save you" from getting used for a greencard or whatever. I know several older American women used for papers by these guys. Some have had tragic results with the woman almost commiting suicide over it... ( he got his papers and split the minute he hit the airport) But this is all how you look at it. If you can see life as a big adventure. If you can look at the bigger picture, I encourage you to drink in NORTH AFRICAN culture independent of this marriage and write about your time in Morocco. This isnt about this marriage. Its about the framework of your life story.

I have written several books about Algeria and I will tell you that not all my experiences in dealing with North Africans have been pleasant. I have a child with one and I have truly seen the butt ### ugly side of some North Africans. But in reading these posts, somehow I find a very strong admiration for you. You are loving without boundaries. You had children.. I am sure you have had heartbreak after heartbreak in the US and I think that you went in many ways to find yourself. I found myself in North Africa.. in Tunisia and Algeria 6 years ago and the experience changed my life.

Yes.. maybe youare older and overweight but some North Africans are incredibly turned on by blonde bigger women. You may be the hottest thing in the world to a Moroccan man. I know moroccan men WITH PAPERS here in the usa that love a big butt and boobs and die for it. These moronic women who come on these boards that are supposed to be for immigration support are NOT doing that. They can state facts but bashing and bashing is just dumb. And I encourage my friends who have been used for papers to seek out friendships with Moroccans and Algerians that HAVE their papers to heal their hearts. I have already been admonished, attacked and patronized since I came on the boards just 2 weeks ago.. told I dont know this and that and frankly I am dumbfounded by the arrogance of some of these women. Particularly wives of Moroccans who want to some how tell other people that their relationships are not valid and say it in an abusive manner. Or somehow ( an american girl of ARAB descent) who came on here telling me she had all the answers because she was arab. My ### I say to her ( If I was algerian.. i would say something more funny like i give you my )*))|)) but I am not a guy so I cant say that hahahhahaha..

Anyway...

Yes particularly in these North African cultures there is a culture of lawri9at which is marriage for papers and its very laughed about but honestly some of these young women that you see that feel so smug in their marriages will get kicked to the curb ( as evidenced by all the women in Orlando that USED to be married to Moroccans that work at EPCOT> In fact we have the largesst expat community in the US except New York because most of the large scale immigration by Moroccans took place with the opening of Disney World Epcot pavillion. I can tell you story after story of YOUNG WOMEN married and dumped after the guy got his papers ( usually citizenship... they wait till then so they can bring a moroccan wife over and the american cannot revoke it) so dont listen to these so called experts. You as an older wife are at about the same odds as them cause the reality is none of know what is in someone s head anyway.

I have seen the butt ### horrible sides of North Africans ( my daughter is Moroccan by the way) and I know them inside and out and I will tell you ... you need to just try hard to be happy and live your life. Enjoy your time in Morocco. Write down and blog the things you see and hear and take lots of picture and even if somehow this relationship turns south.. which it may or not.. you have lived loved laughed made love ...eaten the best things.. and lived a full life....

I am sure you are doing wonderful things for his family and I am sure you are really making some fun friendships with Moroccans and enjoying the food .. the cooking ... the culture.. They are an interesting bunch.. The man I love from Algeria's mother is Chleuh and I will cross the border on my imminent trip to the west of algeria...His family is an eccentric crazy bunch.... his 4 uncles played violins on rai records and played with KHALED ( cheb khaled.. houari benchenet)

By the way one of my friends Cheb Nasro.. ask your husband about him... told me when he was 19 he was desperately in love with a 40 year old woman and had a long relationship with her.. Clandestine and perhaps politically incorrect....life is about individual choice and living bravely....

Another author who writes incredibly beautiful stories is ASSJA DJEBAR

I would be glad to send you things in Morocco that are in English . She is an Algerian female writer at the University of New York

Live a big life Aicha and don't kiss ### to any one. You have the right to love as you like and be happy...

There are and will always be exceptions to every rule ... the trick is to live your live like you will die tomorrow

My little Moroccan beauty

I also admire you for your ability to not let others bother you and you just keep on going - that takes belief inside yourself and it is refreshing to see that in someone! I know mine and my husband's marraige with never go south - we have a connection most others would never understand - if you know what I mean! Anyways - I also love it here in Morocco and I have been writing a great deal - I am a write by nature - there has been bad and good in my experiences here and I too, have seen the really nasty side of life here and the citizens, as well as, the real inner beauty of the country and the people. In most part I feel like I was born to be here - to feel this country with everything inside of me and my husband and I talk about many plans for the things we want to do and things we want to help with and change here and back in the states.

You are a good woman and I will let you read some of my writings someday, but do not worry about me, for one - I am a little overweight right now because of a car accident - and I am slowly getting back in shape after two years of hell. But normally I am a 5'2" - 110 pound woman - I do not care what anyone sees in me or the way they think about me - you need to know me to speak about me - my husband is not like a lot of the others and believe me I have met quite a few of the ones that are just in this for green card - I see them when their wives are away from here. I do not have to think about my husband's intentions - I feel them in every fiber of my soul - only my closest friends and family will know the truth behind my connection with my husband. Anyways - I enjoy talking to you - feel free to send me PM"s too if you want - my yahoo and msn addresses are on my profile too. And I have always had the philosophy to live each day as though it is your last - that is why I actually live here with my husband right now - I would not want to wake up tomorrow and with something having happened and then have to live with losing all of that time together. And one more thing - I never kiss anyone's ### - my family would be the first one's to tell you that - I just believe in not blowing air when minds are closed - I have better things to do with my life. I have an enormous amount of patience and tolerance - but I do have my limits as well!

[Caladan 19]

aicha,

Sorry if advice was given when you didn't want it! The complaints about your lawyer seemed to indicate you were looking for a second or third opinion. I still stand by what I said, but I wouldn't have said anything if I had believed you weren't looking for advice. In any case, best of luck with this new challenge, and I hope you get it resolved satisfactorily.

--

On one of the tangents on this thread, I think that arguing that USCIS/DOS is "gender-biased" is about the least fruitful proposal possible. And I think this for three reasons:

1) Even if the USCIS/DOS were biased against older women just for fun & daisies, they're not going to write that down in your denial letter. It's going to be very very hard to prove.

2) Even worse from the perspective of arguing gender bias: many, many couples with age gaps have been approved. This indicates that USCIS/DOS isn't weighting age inappropriately, but that it's a flag that can be overcome and isn't decisive. That doesn't mean it isn't a flag, but it's not like they see 'older woman/younger man' and automatically deny the petition.

And third, especially in aicha's case:

3) Age wasn't cited as a reason for the petition denial. Other things were, and *that's* what needs to be overcome. You could have the best argument for the lack of a problem of your age gap, but then they'd say, "That's fine, but what about these other things?" No need to waste your energy on problems they haven't cited!

[aicha 0]

aicha,

Sorry if advice was given when you didn't want it! The complaints about your lawyer seemed to indicate you were looking for a second or third opinion. I still stand by what I said, but I wouldn't have said anything if I had believed you weren't looking for advice. In any case, best of luck with this new challenge, and I hope you get it resolved satisfactorily.

--

On one of the tangents on this thread, I think that arguing that USCIS/DOS is "gender-biased" is about the least fruitful proposal possible. And I think this for three reasons:

1) Even if the USCIS/DOS were biased against older women just for fun & daisies, they're not going to write that down in your denial letter. It's going to be very very hard to prove.

2) Even worse from the perspective of arguing gender bias: many, many couples with age gaps have been approved. This indicates that USCIS/DOS isn't weighting age inappropriately, but that it's a flag that can be overcome and isn't decisive. That doesn't mean it isn't a flag, but it's not like they see 'older woman/younger man' and automatically deny the petition.

And third, especially in aicha's case:

3) Age wasn't cited as a reason for the petition denial. Other things were, and *that's* what needs to be overcome. You could have the best argument for the lack of a problem of your age gap, but then they'd say, "That's fine, but what about these other things?" No need to waste your energy on problems they haven't cited!

Thank you for all of your input - it does mean something when people rally together to come in and give advice and I appreciated it - sometimes I guess, ti just needs to be done in different ways. Believe me I have went back through these threads over and over again and, I too, would not change anything I said either. But really I do want you to know that your advice was appreciated - I was just merely bulled over and did not seem to be getting my point across too well - It was like things were being read by people - but people were missing things while they were reading - Anyways, thanks for all you said.

As far as the gender bias is concerned - it is not something I will argue because it is not something that was put in our report, (which I still am 100 percent on the inaccuracy's of this report - but you needed to be there and you need to know me and my husband to know why I say that) so I will be arguing only the concerns, but will be all fire ready to rebut anything they try to bring up the next time around and if I have my way - I will be in that interview next time.

Right now - I am just breaking everything down one step at a time, but they will need a year to go through all of our proof!

As for my lawyer - he is my ex-lawyer and you can see my next post because it is on this very issue! I feel it needs to be brought to people's attention - and I will be filing formal complaints against this lawyer.