Have your husbands friends married American?

[Caladan 19]

Having read what chiquita posted (thanks chi!), it seems that there's a lot of wriggle room in the clause that says 'what a reasonable person' would think constitutes fraud. It's clear that USCIS doesn't what the consulates returning petitions unless they have proof, but it also seems that the 'reasonable person' standard could be construed as proof.

On the larger question: 'The consulate can't return it to USCIS if the information was known to USCIS' sounds a false note to me. The petition approval stage consists in proving that you've met in two years and that you're free to marry and you're compliant with IMBRA. That's why it's really easy to get an NOA2. But that's a really low hurdle, so it doesn't look like they'd have the information necessary to make a judgment on anything but the most blatant fraud.

So the standard's supposed to be 'anything new in the interview', but that's a pretty broad brush. Is it anything 'new', such that if you say in the petition 'I know we've only met once, don't speak the same language, his cousin set us up and I'm thirty years older and a divorcée and we married on our first visit', that would take care of it?

I think not, so I'm thinking we don't understand exactly what counts as 'new.'

[brnidokiegurl 0]

From the application they know the age, the differences of religion, the divorces, the number of times and length of meeting, they see pictures, they see phone bills, letters, etc....then at interview they can judge the speech, the chance to give "new" further information and if they dont look then what....?

[Caladan 19]

All I'm saying is that the NOA2 process is really easy to get through, and it can't just be that whatever's in the original petition means the consulate has to accept it without question, and I suspect 'new' information can mean pretty much whatever DOS thinks it means. Eligible for an NOA2 isn't the same as eligible for a visa, or else there'd be no need for an interview.

brdokiegrl, can you try to get a letter like aicha did?

[Jenn! 918]

Having read what chiquita posted (thanks chi!), it seems that there's a lot of wriggle room in the clause that says 'what a reasonable person' would think constitutes fraud. It's clear that USCIS doesn't what the consulates returning petitions unless they have proof, but it also seems that the 'reasonable person' standard could be construed as proof.

On the larger question: 'The consulate can't return it to USCIS if the information was known to USCIS' sounds a false note to me. The petition approval stage consists in proving that you've met in two years and that you're free to marry and you're compliant with IMBRA. That's why it's really easy to get an NOA2. But that's a really low hurdle, so it doesn't look like they'd have the information necessary to make a judgment on anything but the most blatant fraud.

So the standard's supposed to be 'anything new in the interview', but that's a pretty broad brush. Is it anything 'new', such that if you say in the petition 'I know we've only met once, don't speak the same language, his cousin set us up and I'm thirty years older and a divorcée and we married on our first visit', that would take care of it?

I think not, so I'm thinking we don't understand exactly what counts as 'new.'

I agree.

I think what part of the problem is, and it certainly is unfortunate for all those that get caught up in the middle, that Morocco, for lack of a better term, is just coming into its own as a high fraud consulate. While the Philippines and Russia, for example, have had fraud investigation practices in place for years, in Morocco it's a recent phenomenon. I betcha that the number of fiance and spousal visa petitions that Casa has seen over the past 5 years has been increasing exponentially, not wholly but largely due to our new age of internet relationships.

All in all, Casa just can't deal with the volume and they may be resorting to what might be seen as shady practices. However, for now at least, it's "working". They have no incentive to change.

With the example you gave (I know we've only met once, don't speak the same language, his cousin set us up and I'm thirty years older and a divorcée and we married on our first visit), I think that they're not even interested in what other evidence you have to prove your relationship. There is enough circumstantial evidence for fraud to outweigh any rebutting evidence of a valid relationship, so they just send it on back to USCIS as has become their procedure.

If Casa isn't following DOS guidelines, unless a better solution is provided for them, the practice will continue as is.

[Caladan 19]

Yeah. There seem to be two separate issues here, too; a) whether a petition should be held at DoS pending more evidence and fraud research, and b ) whether it should be returned to USCIS. So the options aren't 'approve' or 'return.' There's supposed to be a middle step.

It seems that the guidelines for the latter are quite strict, but that Casablanca doesn't have the resources (or maybe the inclination) to deal with it, amd so they're reading 'fraud' as broadly as possible in cases with a lot of flags. The memo chi posted sounds like interdepartmental squabbling, where DoS wants USCIS not to approve them in the first place if they have all those flags and USCIS wants to adhere to the minimal NOA2 standard we know, and both want to keep their processing times down.

[Jenn! 918]

Yeah. There seem to be two separate issues here, too; a) whether a petition should be held at DoS pending more evidence and fraud research, and b ) whether it should be returned to USCIS. So the options aren't 'approve' or 'return.' There's supposed to be a middle step.

It seems that the guidelines for the latter are quite strict, but that Casablanca doesn't have the resources (or maybe the inclination) to deal with it, amd so they're reading 'fraud' as broadly as possible in cases with a lot of flags. The memo chi posted sounds like interdepartmental squabbling, where DoS wants USCIS not to approve them in the first place if they have all those flags and USCIS wants to adhere to the minimal NOA2 standard we know, and both want to keep their processing times down.

And strangely enough (or maybe not strange, I don't know), from that memo it seems that DHS is not as concerned as Casa is about issuing visas to suspected fraudulent beneficiaries.

Edited April 15, 2007 by jenn3539

[brnidokiegurl 0]

Im still trying to get any answer out of them, so far nothing. Will be faxing another letter today asking for a statement of reasons and also including letters from family and friends, at this point this is all i have i can do, senators are also made aware of...but for us its still soon only will be two weeks Wednesday>Anyone can have issues, but if denied give the concrete reason so it can be addressed, i think thats what most are just asking for.

THose with the age, that cant be changed so what i guess prove its not a problem to anyone, not family or friends. So does this become a issue to the embassy, they arent going to be living in the house. Religion again explain it is not a issue for those concerned, Meeting on the internet, in todays times what do you think the percent is that DIDNT? most cant travel all over the world to meet new people. If its money, again these issues should be able to document time, places, reason, if its not a habit but one time, who did that affect? Another might be divorces, ok people get married they get divorced having no bearing on the current relationship and those papers are all given in the application again. Talking at interview in English not sure how all that works with translators since Ahmed knows English and is educated which he took his degree papers translated but they were not looked at. Ive seen reasons from others of not being pretty enough, being American, so i guess if every woman is very nice looking and NOT american there is better chance, who at that embassy should be allowed to decided how another sees their SO wether fat, skinny, short, tall, black, white I dont know the answers...I know ahmeds brother married someone older and a catholic but he went to Italy so i guess they dont care there...maybe soon we will know an answer.

[mybackpages 0]

From the application they know the age, the differences of religion, the divorces, the number of times and length of meeting, they see pictures, they see phone bills, letters, etc....then at interview they can judge the speech, the chance to give "new" further information and if they dont look then what....?

Yes they see these things, but what do they see when they look at these things. Maybe not the same thing we do. We are talking about someone looking at the evidence we put in front of them and ask them to make a judgement.

My husband saw one photo of a couple tht was denied the visa. His first reaction was this is not a good family. I was shocked. I thought maybe he was judging them based on some personal idea of how his family works and called him on it. He wasn't however. He was simply looking at the behavior and dress of the people in the photo and made a judgement based on Moroccan cultural standards. He went as far as to say he didn't beive this was the finace's family in the photo.

with the consulate seeing 1000s of petitons, what do you think experience has taught them.

I think the biggest lesson learned so far if for couples going into this process, before sending in the USCIS petition is to take care how you outline evidence.

Age alone can't be a factor. there are too many of us who have age gaps and get approved.

[brnidokiegurl 0]

All most are asking i think is, at time to deny (send back) whatever....state the reason..how hard can that be?? take that same paper they give them and WRITE the reason, then it can be addressed. We deny because (prob of age, religion, length to meet, way they met, divorces, money( it could go on and on) just state the reason.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I posted this on another thread:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...st&p=839741

I'm curious as to whether the non-immigrant K visas, as opposed to the immigrant family visas (CR1/IR1), are refused more often. The research I'm doing on that seems to make it more likely. I know of a couple of immigrant petitions that were refused, but, overall, what has been the trend in MENA?

Edited April 15, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[brnidokiegurl 0]

thanks again

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I posted this on another thread:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...st&p=839741

I'm curious as to whether the non-immigrant K visas, as opposed to the immigrant family visas (CR1/IR1), are refused more often. The research I'm doing on that seems to make it more likely. I know of a couple of immigrant petitions that were refused, but, overall, what has been the trend in MENA?

I don't know where to get the overall ME/NA statistics.... but from our non-scientific sampling of VJers in the Cheerleading thread, you can see that far more K-1s/K-3s have been sent back than CR-1s/IR-1s. (However, this may simply be indicative of a far greater volume of K-1s/K-3s in the first place -- I don't have info on that.)

[Caladan 19]

Im still trying to get any answer out of them, so far nothing. Will be faxing another letter today asking for a statement of reasons and also including letters from family and friends, at this point this is all i have i can do, senators are also made aware of...but for us its still soon only will be two weeks Wednesday>Anyone can have issues, but if denied give the concrete reason so it can be addressed, i think thats what most are just asking for.

THose with the age, that cant be changed so what i guess prove its not a problem to anyone, not family or friends. So does this become a issue to the embassy, they arent going to be living in the house. Religion again explain it is not a issue for those concerned, Meeting on the internet, in todays times what do you think the percent is that DIDNT? most cant travel all over the world to meet new people. If its money, again these issues should be able to document time, places, reason, if its not a habit but one time, who did that affect? Another might be divorces, ok people get married they get divorced having no bearing on the current relationship and those papers are all given in the application again. Talking at interview in English not sure how all that works with translators since Ahmed knows English and is educated which he took his degree papers translated but they were not looked at. Ive seen reasons from others of not being pretty enough, being American, so i guess if every woman is very nice looking and NOT american there is better chance, who at that embassy should be allowed to decided how another sees their SO wether fat, skinny, short, tall, black, white I dont know the answers...I know ahmeds brother married someone older and a catholic but he went to Italy so i guess they dont care there...maybe soon we will know an answer.

It's not just whether the CO is personally affected or personally approves of the relationship. If that were the standard, denials of most consulates would be around 75% because there are a lot of non-traditional relationships out there.

The embassy doesn't care if you have a miserable marriage or if the couple isn't suited for each other, but they do care if the USC is being taken for a ride by someone who is just using them to get into the country. They don't know you and your partner, and they can only go by how likely it is that someone with all of those flags will turn out to be saying when her partner takes off: "I guess I should have suspected because of A, B, and C."

I really hope you get specifics soon, because it's hard to know what triggered it. But imagine a hypothetical fraudulent couple with your set of flags, as impersonal as you can. What's different between your situation and theirs? That's what needs to be brought out.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I posted this on another thread:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...st&p=839741

I'm curious as to whether the non-immigrant K visas, as opposed to the immigrant family visas (CR1/IR1), are refused more often. The research I'm doing on that seems to make it more likely. I know of a couple of immigrant petitions that were refused, but, overall, what has been the trend in MENA?

I don't know where to get the overall ME/NA statistics.... but from our non-scientific sampling of VJers in the Cheerleading thread, you can see that far more K-1s/K-3s have been sent back than CR-1s/IR-1s. (However, this may simply be indicative of a far greater volume of K-1s/K-3s in the first place -- I don't have info on that.)

Thanks for that, WOM. I'm looking for general stats, but it does seem that non-immigrant visas are refused more overall than immigrant visas. Trying to find a correlation.

[lion_lioness 0]

To give my opinion on the original question yes and no. I would not personally be ecstactic if I knew my fiance had a bunch of friends who all came to the US and they all hung out in the same cyber cafe. Would I not continue a relationship with him? No, but I would address it. Luckily his english is very good and like I have in the past I'd talk to him very seriously about it. My ex-husband was from Morocco. He lied about alot of things. His attitude changed. He didn't keep any of his promises and his focus became saving money to open his store back in Morocco! After I separated from him, I found he had about 10 friends, all from Morocco here in NJ. He also had many friends from Taza that immigrated over right after. Not that the friends had anything to do with him. I don't think it should be an automatic red flag no. I mean people have their preferences right? For example, I'm american, but I've never dated many american men, I like different cultures. So would it be a red flag for an american guy to be in a relationship with me, you betcha. Doesn't mean my fiance has anything to worry about, I love him. So the same should apply.

Bottom line ladies, the romance - its amazing. But we're all grown folks here and I'm sure we have all had to just sit down and have those talks, because it is a reality. My fiance was very understanding, not at first, but he came to see my point. At first he though I didn't trust him. I don't him of course not lol. Trust is earned over time. So we talked about every scenario and maybe its because we were friends first I don't know, but its helpful to talk about it.

Whether or not is is a red flag for you per se it's up to you and your relationship. Not every Arab, African, Moroccan or Jordanian man is out for a green card - but there are bad apples in every bunch. I know one couple that got married (they were both traditional muslim) and her husband wants flat out "in love with her." He respected her and though she would make a good wife under Islamic standards. Years later they are still married with kids and he loves her to death. So she/he had to decide what is and what isn't a red flag for themselves.

I don't think there is a person on in this forum that can say not for a split second they wondered. Even if it was just wow, how did I meet such a wonderful guy that lives thousands of miles away. The key is to talk about it no matter how big or small and be REAL about what you are feeling and what you will and will not tolerate.

As for the consulates, yes they should absolutely continue to do their jobs. However, let people know why they are not being approved. Even if it is something like age, which while we may not feel its fair, at least it is a reason and we know what we're up against. But to deny without cause, it's just not fair and I can only imagine how helpless one might feel. It doesn't matter what the damn it red flag was, age, looks, religion whatever! Someone's heart is at stake, so just tell them why, it might be hurtful but at least they know!