No race option for brown skinned latinos

[Estibaliz 3,037]

1 hour ago, Cruise77 said:

The government asks these questions for a few reasons.  First off for pure statistical purposes.  Second in some cases it helps identify the applicant.  Lastly it's to ensure that they aren't discriminating against one group or another.  Those are perhaps the main reasons.  But indeed, the question is difficult for many to answer 100%.  So you just choose the best option.    

 

Case in point I'm in almost the same exact boat you are.  Since I have great grandparents from Spain, I could tick the box for Hispanic.  The thing is I'm white from European descent so no one would believe me.  The stereotype in America is If you aren't browned skin and wear a sombrero,  you couldn't possibly be from Spanish descent.  So it's easier just to mark white.  Even though it doesn't fully answer questions about my ethnicity (Catalan, English and Irish), it does correctly identify me.

 

 

1 hour ago, CatherineA said:

There are some some white Hispanic actors who push against this whenever they get the chance. Alexis Bledel and James Rodey pop to mind immediately. The thing is that (I think) it's also a cultural question as well. So while you can trace your ancestry there, does your story/ personal identification fit the question?

 

I'm sure I could trace part of my ancestry to Spain as well. I'm basically all Irish (save one outlier Scot, which is where my  red hair comes from), but my dad is so called "black Irish"-- western coastal people who are believed to have mixed with Iberian people due to trading routes, resulting in dark hair and dark(er) skin. Another big clue is that my last name is common in both Ireland and Spain (fun fact: this factored into why my husband took my name, not vice versa). I'm not who they're asking about. My husband definitely is and people like Bledel and Rodey (Rodriguez, actually, they made him change it) probably are as well. They grew up speaking Spanish and are while they far removed from the Spanish immigration (conquest) of this hemisphere but are still close to the immigration to the US from Latin America and they consider themselves Hispanic and are likely as far removed from Spain as I am. Confusing!

 

Edited to clarify:

The Census says "[Hispanic] Origin can be view as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of birth of the person or the person's parents or ancestors before their arrival in the United States." So if you DO identify with your Spanish ancestors, you are who they're asking about. I do not, so I am not.

I guess that explanation makes sense, but still kind of a nuisance.

 

As a Spaniard with Spanish parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on, I have to say I'm so pale I almost shine in the dark. So yes, I'm definitely white. Then it's true I'm from the North of Spain. People have that stereotype of Spain being just flamenco and bulls and sun and Arabic heritage, but where I live we are about Celtic heritage. So yep, in the end, we all are a mix.

 

But still have to answer that questions  So let's follow the guidelines of common sense and, as the last person said, not to stress too much about small things. Thought easier said than done...

Edited May 2, 2017 by Estibaliz

[Pennycat 880]

16 minutes ago, Estibaliz said:

 

I guess that explanation makes sense, but still kind of a nuisance.

 

As a Spaniard with Spanish parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on, I have to say I'm so pale I almost shine in the dark. So yes, I'm definitely white. Then it's true I'm from the North of Spain. People have that stereotype of Spain being just flamenco and bulls and sun and Arabic heritage, but where I live we are about Celtic heritage. So yep, I'm the end, we all are a mix.

 

But still have to answer that questions  So let's follow the guidelines of common sense and, as the last person said, not to stress too much about small things. Thought easier said than done...

If you're the immigrant, then you for sure are white, of Hispanic origin. The funny thing is that you and my husband would be counted the exact same way but he's mestizo and tan-skinned (really not what you'd consider "dark"-- most people here think he's Italian. No one guesses Central American ever.) But on the Census, they have space to clarify the Hispanic origin if you like-- that's where you can put in a country. Now, of course, my husband could go on to claim Spain itself because, well, that's the long of it. But when the Census comes around, he'll put Costa Rica, and I do think that this is more what they're after.

 

The lesson here, to me, is that the very concept of race is a bit....non-applicable in general in the world. The Census sticks with black, white, Asian, American Indian, Pacific Islander which more-or-less goes along with old school physical anthropology (which is rather fraught and racially charged so take that for what it's worth). But most Americans and many (most?) Latinos don't consider Latinos white (or Arabs, who count as white, not of Hispanic origin, so same as me). But most would consider a Spanish person white. It's silly because if there are "races" of humans, can you create a new one? Because that's what the American concept of "Latino" would be-- a mix of Caucasian and Amerindian. But then there's a lot of black Latinos (Dominican Republic, Cuba etc). And the aforementioned white Latinos so back to Latino/Hispanic being an ethnicity not a race. 

 

 

Oh edit also: Celtic heritage? Are you the Spanish person? Is there Celtic culture in the north of Spain? I really do wonder if the idea of the Celts and Iberians mixing long ago is true.

Edited May 2, 2017 by CatherineA

[YecaCruz 379]

21 hours ago, bmackin said:

So there is no "other" option for race and basically nothing that my husband can put.  He has dark skin from his indigenous ancenstors in El Salvador, he's definitely not white, but the only option for Native American is defined in the instructions as:  A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.

 

And he doesn't have "tribal affiliation"  and I'm not sure what they mean by community attachment.

 

What should we put for race? I feel like we are lying whatever we put.  

Ethnicity: he's latino

 

The race section says to select all applicable boxes. If nothing applies in that section don't select anything is how I read it. My husband is definitely not white . 100% nica!

Edited May 2, 2017 by JJGussiaas (Gush)

[YecaCruz 379]

Adding a thought to my last post: To me the race section is there in that if you check "not Hispanic or latino", the race section below further specifies your origins. Am I overthinking it? Makes sense in my own brain but...well...

[lucybelle 453]

My husband is from Costa Rica and he is a light-skinned Hispanic (could also pass as "Italian").  I put him as Hispanic/white.  Is he actually white?  No, but he's closer to white than he is indigenous or black, so... close enough.

 

PS- loving all the ticos & nicas on this post 

Edited May 2, 2017 by lucybelle

[Pennycat 880]

21 minutes ago, JJGussiaas (Gush) said:

Ethnicity: he's latino

 

The race section says to select all applicable boxes. If nothing applies in that section don't select anything is how I read it. My husband is definitely not white . 100% nica!

He's white. Or, rather, he is counted as white as defined by how the US government counts race (Arabs and North Africans are counted as white, too). My husband finds it funny, too. The thing is that race and ethnicity are different things. So you'd answer to "yes" to Hispanic/Latino and "white" to race. Many Latinos choose "other" because they really don't feel the "white" thing, and that's fine, too. As sort of icky as the question is in the first place (but important for demographic purposes I suppose), they're not going to come around knocking to verify that you're really what you claim to be and then argue with you if they don't agree. If he doesn't agree with how the US counts race demographics, he can answer "other" and move along. I think that they're looking to change this and add Hispanic/Latino as a race (and keep the ethnicity question) to the 2020 Census, but there are some issues with that as well.

 

The crux of the issue is, if you consider Latino a "race" what do you do with black Latinos (of which there are many in Nicaragua) and white Latinos? The issue with darker skinned mixed-folks (which the majority of Central Americans are) is that they are descended from the Spanish (who are Europeans and white-- just more olive skinned) and are mixed to varying degrees with the indigenous population. You can have someone like my mother in law, who is 100% Tica, who is a natural redhead and lighter skinned. My husband is constantly confused for Italian. The Ambassador from Costa Rica to the US is lighter than my dad-- who is 100% Irish!  So at what shade of brown would you draw the line between Latino and white? Or Latino and black? And that's just you-- almost everyone would have a different answer. Besides, the concept of race (a flawed one) is by and large an ethnographic study about ancestral origins, not skin color. They track the Hispanic origin as a way to solve this issue, so that Latinos are still visible in the Census and demographics but so that you are not excluding anyone who could have the Latino heritage, but as we can all clearly see....this is not a solution for most people!

 

I found this article to be helpful: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/15/is-being-hispanic-a-matter-of-race-ethnicity-or-both/

[YecaCruz 379]

Holla! Neighbors, with a 12-ish hour bus ride between Managua and and San Jose!

 

Does the "white" infer origins from Europe in the question of race, then? Again, the form says to select all that apply under the race category. If the options below do not apply to my case then I simply wouldn't select, not? Am I reading into that line of wording too much? There is no other box to select on the I751 form so it's not an option otherwise that's what the answer to the original poster's question.

 I agree that they probably won't penalize if you select one of those if you feel one of those apply to you. I suppose we could select white as there is are a few Spaniards in my husband's lineage however-many hundreds of years ago and not be wrong. He could select the Native option too and not be wrong in the same way. Or perhaps both? 

 

Nicaragua as an example: the Miskitos, as CatherinA mentioned, are different I think, because while they are Latino they also have clear African roots so that's an easy selection for them. And the Mayagnas people would select Latino but also Native since that's clear. Many of these people don't even speak Spanish. Dawang mambi mai mumbia = God Bless You.

 

An interesting article, thanks for sharing. A good discussion as we will be at this point in less than a year so I'm glad someone brought this question up, as this is helping me too.

[Pennycat 880]

5 minutes ago, JJGussiaas (Gush) said:

Holla! Neighbors, with a 12-ish hour bus ride between Managua and and San Jose!

 

Does the "white" infer origins from Europe in the question of race, then? Again, the form says to select all that apply under the race category. If the options below do not apply to my case then I simply wouldn't select, not? Am I reading into that line of wording too much? There is no other box to select on the I751 form so it's not an option otherwise that's what the answer to the original poster's question.

 I agree that they probably won't penalize if you select one of those if you feel one of those apply to you. I suppose we could select white as there is are a few Spaniards in my husband's lineage however-many hundreds of years ago and not be wrong. He could select the Native option too and not be wrong in the same way. Or perhaps both? 

 

Nicaragua as an example: the Miskitos, as CatherinA mentioned, are different I think, because while they are Latino they also have clear African roots so that's an easy selection for them. And the Mayagnas people would select Latino but also Native since that's clear. Many of these people don't even speak Spanish. Dawang mambi mai mumbia = God Bless You.

 

An interesting article, thanks for sharing. A good discussion as we will be at this point in less than a year so I'm glad someone brought this question up, as this is helping me too.

Yes. All of Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. This concept of race is not about skin color itself but about sort of  origin "zones" in the world. You're thinking of "white" as in basically Aryan. Whereas in whatever science there is behind race, it's much much broader than that. Again, just to be clear, I don't like this concept of race but this is what they're after. Read here under "history of the concept" and check out the maps and severely outdated terms (that they don't use anymore but this is where this whole concept of race comes from so. You've got to see it). Clearly this is all a bit troubling and outdated but... here we are.

 

Now of course where the problem comes in is that in Central America, most of the population is mixed. But if the form doesn't have an "other" and the instructions make it seem like he wouldn't "count" as Amerindian, then white it is, I suppose. Or leave it blank maybe. I doubt that this is RFE material.

 

Come to think of it, this is probably why Costa Rica counts "white" and "Mestizo" together. Smart people, Costa Rican demographers

 

Oh and also about the Miskitos, yes, it's much easier for them NOW with race and ethnicity separate (black Latinos). But if you were to make Latino a race and NOT an ethnicity, what would they do? You've effectively kicked them out Latino culture because of their skin color so.... yeah. That's why considering Latino a race not ethnicity is a hot button issue. Think of all the Afro-Brazillians, another major example of how this would fail the logic test.

[Coco8 1,042]

Race and ethnicity are different things.

 

Anyway, much of these distinctions and the categories are based on definitions by the state and they have some historical connotation. They are not expected to be generalizable to a bunch of countries but specific to whatever government officials want/can measure. These race/ethnicity categories vary across countries (check the UK, they are pretty weird). 

 

In the U.S. most people from Latin American would be latino/hispanic for "ethnicity" and for race it would be "white" if you are part European or "black" if you are part "African" (and European). 

 

 

[Pennycat 880]

Oh and if you want a real head-scratcher: Belize is not in "Latin America" because it's (officially) an English-speaking country that was a British colony (British Honduras), so it's "Anglo-America", like US, Canada and much of the Caribbean. However, due to lots of stuff that happened after independence (cliffs notes version--people moved around during civil wars then had lots of babies): Mestizos whose linage comes from elsewhere in Central America (and who speak Spanish) are now over 50% of the population. So they're Latinos from Central America but not from Latin America. Heh.

Edited May 2, 2017 by CatherineA

[Estibaliz 3,037]

5 hours ago, CatherineA said:

 

Oh edit also: Celtic heritage? Are you the Spanish person? Is there Celtic culture in the north of Spain? I really do wonder if the idea of the Celts and Iberians mixing long ago is true.

Yes, I'm the Spanish fiancee and future immigrant to your country. And a big yes to all that. Sure Celtiberian culture was a thing, and part of our History. We study that in school 

 

I'm from beautiful lovely Asturias that certainly I'm going to miss

 

https://www.intltravelnews.com/2008/02/northern-spain’s-celtic-roots

[USC1961 251]

8 hours ago, Estibaliz said:

Yes, I'm the Spanish fiancee and future immigrant to your country. And a big yes to all that. Sure Celtiberian culture was a thing, and part of our History. We study that in school 

 

I'm from beautiful lovely Asturias that certainly I'm going to miss

 

https://www.intltravelnews.com/2008/02/northern-spain’s-celtic-roots

SLC isn't bad...mind you it's not Barca or Spain but it's not bad.  This has been a really interesting thread for sure. 

[Estibaliz 3,037]

11 minutes ago, Cruise77 said:

SLC isn't bad...mind you it's not Barca or Spain but it's not bad.  This has been a really interesting thread for sure. 

I know. It's just different but quite a nice place, specially the people. I've been visiting twice before, five months total, so I'm ready for it

 

Pity the waiting is so long... And lately it seems it's going to be even longer.

 

Agree this was a very interesting thread, and my apologies to the OP if we are getting out of track and kind of spamming.

[Pennycat 880]

15 hours ago, Estibaliz said:

Yes, I'm the Spanish fiancee and future immigrant to your country. And a big yes to all that. Sure Celtiberian culture was a thing, and part of our History. We study that in school 

 

I'm from beautiful lovely Asturias that certainly I'm going to miss

 

https://www.intltravelnews.com/2008/02/northern-spain’s-celtic-roots

Excellent, well welcome (soon, I know it feels like it takes forever but then  you're here and wondering where all the time went)! And very cool on the Celtic connection. So between my Dad's coloring, his family's origin on the west cost of Ireland and the last name which is common in both countries... sounds fairly likely that I've got some Iberian roots somewhere in there! I do think that those ancestry DNA tests are a little weird but a good friend of mine did hers and it was crazily specific. It would be interesting to see mine and my husband's. Obviously, he's got Spanish roots and probably some Amerindian (but who knows), but I would think there's more to it than that. He's very tall for a Central American (average for men in his country is the tallest in Centroamerica at 168cm, he's 185cm) and his first name is Walter-- a name passed down to men in his family and not a particularly Spanish name, I don't think!