Epidemic of non-drug/alcohol using teenagers & young adults with cirrhotic livers and T2 diabetes

[IAMX 3,055]

This was once a disease only seen in drug users and alcoholics, especially early on in life (teens and 20s), but because of genetic factors compounded far more with diets consisting of high carb/dense carb food (including sugar-dense foods like soda), especially of the processed variety, and large food portions, this is a serious issue in virtually all western nations, especially the US, Canada, UK, etc.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4327614/Teens-getting-liver-damage-overeating.html

They believe the cases are part of a shocking ‘hidden epidemic’ of liver problems caused by obesity.

 

Dr Jude Oben, a consultant hepatologist at Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust in London, is treating about a dozen teenagers with fatty liver disease, including a 13-year-old who is 21 stone. 

 

A number of those in their late teens have already developed full-blown cirrhosis, he told The Mail on Sunday.

 

He said: ‘To have patients so young is shocking beyond belief.

 

‘It is a reflection on parents, who have to realise that bad diets and overeating can do enormous damage, even at an early age.’

 

I won't discuss the drug and alcohol abuse method of destroying the liver, that one is obvious, but rather the non-alcoholic progression of liver disease, especially carb laden foods versus how the liver breaks down and metabolizes carbs, along with interventions that have been popping up and becoming more prominent.

 

Firstly, liver function is as follows (along with correlation to diabetes since it significantly involves the liver)

http://www.webmd.com/hepatitis/tc/what-the-liver-does-topic-overview



 

How this tends to go hand in hand with diabetes..

http://journal.diabetes.org/clinicaldiabetes/v17n21999/Pg73.htm

∙ It regulates the composition of blood, including the amounts of sugar (glucose), protein, and fat that enter the bloodstream.

∙ It removes bilirubin, ammonia, and other toxins from the blood. (Bilirubin is a by-product of the breakdown of hemoglobin from red blood cells.)

∙ It processes most of the nutrients absorbed by the intestines during digestion and converts those nutrients into forms that can be used by the body. The liver also stores some nutrients, such as vitamin A, iron, and other minerals.

∙ It produces cholesterol and certain important proteins, such as albumin.

∙ It produces clotting factors, chemicals needed to help blood clot.

∙ It breaks down (metabolizes) alcohol and many drugs.

An appreciation of the role of the liver in the regulation of carbohydrate homeostasis is essential to understanding the many physical and biochemical alterations that occur in the liver in the presence of diabetes and to understanding how liver disease may affect glucose metabolism. The liver uses glucose as a fuel and also has the ability to store it as glycogen and synthesize it from noncarbohydrate precursors (gluconeogenesis). Mann and Magath demonstrated that a total hepatectomy in a dog results in death within a few hours from hypoglycemic shock,1,2 underscoring the important role the liver plays in maintaining normoglycemia.

 

Glucose absorbed from the intestinal tract is transported via the portal vein to the liver. Although the absolute fate of this glucose is still controversial, some authors suggest that most of the absorbed glucose is retained by the liver so that the rise in peripheral glucose concentration reflects only a minor component of postprandial absorbed glucose. Therefore, it is possible that the liver plays a more significant role than does peripheral tissue in the regulation of systemic blood glucose levels following a meal.3 Katz and associates,4 however, suggest that most absorbed glucose is not taken up by the liver but is rather metabolized via glycolysis in the peripheral tissues.

 

Many cells in the body, including fat, liver, and muscle cells, have specific cell membrane insulin receptors, and insulin facilitates the uptake and utilization of glucose by these cells. Glucose rapidly equilibrates between the liver cytosol and the extracellular fluid. Transport into certain cells, such as resting muscle, is tightly regulated by insulin, whereas uptake into the nervous system is not insulin-dependent.

 

Glucose can be used as a fuel or stored in a macromolecular form as polymers: starch in plants and glycogen in animals. Glycogen storage is promoted by insulin, but the capacity within tissues is physically limited because it is a bulky molecule.

 

Insulin is formed from a precursor molecule, preproinsulin, which is then cleaved to proinsulin. Further maturation results in the conversion of proinsulin into insulin and a smaller peptide called C-peptide.

 

A small amount of proinsulin enters the circulation. It has a half-life 3–4 times longer than that of insulin because it is not metabolized by the liver. However, proinsulin has <10% of the biological activity of insulin.

 

Insulin is metabolized by insulinase in the liver, kidney, and placenta. About 50% of insulin secreted by the pancreas is removed by first-pass extraction in the liver. Insulin promotes glycogen synthesis (glycogenesis) in the liver and inhibits its breakdown (glycogenolysis). It promotes protein, cholesterol, and triglyceride synthesis and stimulates formation of very-low-density lipoprotein cholesterol. It also inhibits hepatic gluconeogenesis, stimulates glycolysis, and inhibits ketogenesis. The liver is the primary target organ for glucagon action, where it promotes glycogenolysis, gluconeogenesis, and ketogenesis.5,6

In type 2 diabetes, excessive hepatic glucose output contributes to the fasting hyperglycemia. Increased gluconeogenesis is the predominant mechanism responsible for this increased glucose output, while glycogenolysis has not been shown to be increased in patients with type 2 diabetes

Excess glycogen accumulation in the liver is seen in 80% of diabetic patients.9Glycogen synthesis in the liver is impaired in diabetes due to defective activation of glycogen synthase. However, studies attesting to this were usually performed on animals with recently induced diabetes. In patients with chronic diabetes, glycogen accumulation is seen, and it is postulated that long-standing insulin deficiency may actually facilitate synthase activity. This and enhanced gluconeogenesis may account for the net accumulation of glycogen in diabetes

 

To put short, carbs consumed get absorbed into the liver, converted via glycogenesis to sugars and reserved for energy output. Once the livers reserve is full, it uses another method of converting sugars to fatty acids, and the very first place this effects is the liver, but it also gets pushed around the body through the blood stream as adipose tissue (fat). The stored fat in the liver as a result of excess carbs begins to replace hepatocytes within the liver, causing damage to the liver itself. The body sees this wound and begins to attack it, causing a cascade of changes that eventually make the damage to the liver irreversible. For non-alcoholic varieties, damage is seen in 4 stages, which I will use as an illustrative sliding scale.

 

NA liver disease progression:

0>>>1>>>>>2>>>>>3>>>>4>>>>>>>>>>>>>>5

 

Stage 0 = completely healthy liver with fat and damage encompassing less than 10% of the livers weight

Stage 1: NAFLD, non-alcoholic fatty liver.. this stage is where the liver is intaking too many carbs to process and must convert to fatty acids that begin destroying liver cells, in this stage it begins encompassing the entire liver in fat, liver begins to grow

Stage 2: NASH: Many hepatocytes dying off, can visually on the liver see holes in the liver known as cysts as fat wounds the liver and begins changing its color (more fading).. at this stage one might start showing symptoms, such as pale stools, enlarged gut (as the liver pushes fat throughout the body, it primarily accumulates in the greater omentum), higher blood sugar/hBA1c as regulation of blood sugars becomes more difficult, liver growth significant

Stage 3: Fibrosis: Liver bombarded with inflammation due to hepatocyte death and fat infiltration, body's wound healing mechanism begins to cause fibrotic scarring, liver's ability to function properly decreases dramatically, incidence of symptoms and comorbidities begin to show, ranging from pale/tarry stools, to full blown diabetes, significant fat accumulation throughout the body (especially edema in the legs/feet/arms/hands), encompassing fat becomes so wide that liver as a whole begins to die off.. this is the last stage of complete reversibility regarding liver damage. Fibroscan/MRE would reveal liver hardening, MRI would reveal countless cysts and fibrotic scarring (appearing to the naked eye if one could see the liver as white spots), blood pressure rises due to portal hypertension, liver growth halted

Stage 4: Cirrhosis: Scarring is virtually all-encompassing of the liver, not many hepatocytes left, much of the portal vein that supplies blood to the liver is blocked off due to damage, likewise increasing rate of liver death.. as liver begins to shrink, liver is hardened at this point, and symptoms at this stage increasingly become obvious, including extreme edema, jaundice (yellowing of the skin, eyes, etc.), sleep apnea (airway obstruction caused by excess fat), trauma to the portal vein (which includes bleeding, enlarged branches, etc.), scarring is so bad and encompassing the liver darkens, not to a natural looking shade of dark reddish brown color, but to one that looks blackened from scarring and wounds. At this stage the likelihood of liver failure dramatically increases along with developments of liver cancer. Ultimately leads to liver failure and death if not in line for transplant. Increasing inability of liver to function likewise leads to destruction of other organs like kidneys, heart, etc., body's ability to maintain blood sugar levels nearly destroyed, likely extreme insulin resistance which adds to the speed of complications of other organs. Inability to synthesize fatty acids for energy output decreased so inevitable weight gain.. excessive fat prominent in every facet of the body, blood vessels squashed by adipose tissue leading to dramatically increased blood pressure, and increasing likelihood of cellular death in the extremities (feet/hands), extreme pressure put on blood vessels in the feet especially, can lead to amputation as blood has difficulty circulating in that region.

Stage 5: End stage liver disease.. liver failure, cancer, death, etc.

 

The reason the staging for cirrhosis is much longer is because 1) its largely irreversible, 2) if one is on certain medications and/or have changed the underlying causes of their liver disease, they can slow the progression of cirrhosis.. however, if underlying causes that brought the person to end stage liver disease are not addressed, the cirrhosis will progress just as fast.

 

Largest culprits of progression of liver disease

- Carb intake (refined carbs especially)

- Food portion size

- Caloric intake (high calorie slider food that doesn't lead to lasting satiety, meaning hungry again soon)

- Genetic disposition

- Exercise (generally the least cause)

 

How many carbs and calories does one need per day?

- Depending on how much fuel your body needs, which also depends on your activity.. more activity, more energy needed, for the vast majority of sedentary people, less than 20g carbs, 1000-1400 calories

 

Fastest ways to reverse liver damage:

- Ketogenic diet (low carb, low cal diet consisting of small portion sizes, and foods like lean ground beef, lean chicken, almonds, peanuts, string cheese, etc.)

- Bariatric surgery (vertical sleeve gastrectomy, duodenal switch, gastric bypass -- efficacy of lap band surgery has decreased significantly over other options)

- Reduce portion sizes significantly

- Chart/measure foods, stick to under 20g of carbs a day (if not exercising significantly) which includes sugars and especially refined sugars, 1000-1400 calories (not much lower as you don't want to put your body into starvation, where the body panics and stores all fat while burning off primarily muscle), try and intake fiber to offset any carbs

- Protein dense foods take longer to digest, and will keep you full longer.. high carb food will make you hungry/thirsty again quickly and just make it easy to consume excess carbs and calories.

- Don't eat/drink within 30 mins of eating food, decreases absorption, causes stomach to empty out faster

- Drink plenty of water (1.5-3L of water a day)

 

Examples of how the foods we eat contribute significantly to liver damage:

- Pasta.. one serving of the average pastas are  around 60g of carbs, which is way more than you need in a day, stuff like this has to be cut out completely, substituted, or portion sizes dramatically reduced

- One can of Coke is like 13-35g of sugar, which is empty calories, no nutrutional value whatsoever, and sodas are the prime reason for diseases relating to the liver, stomach, esophagus, gums/teeth, heart, kidneys, etc.

- Juices are as bad as sodas, orange juice actually tends to have more sugar than soda, and while a couple of the nutrients are good for you, the daily amount is so easy to achieve, and consuming oranges, apples, etc. whole tends to add fiber to the diet which offsets the natural sugars they have (which affect the liver all the same)

- Processed foods tend to be laden with carbs and sodium, both of which are bad for you even in moderate numbers, examples.. Chef Boyardee, Pizza Rolls, Cheeze-Its, most cereals, etc.

 

Misconceptions:

- Eggs are bad for you/your heart. This was a belief based on well outdated science concerning cholesterol.. eggs are not only a significant source of protein but are a source of good cholesterol and have virtually no carbs.

- Fad diets work. It's a billion dollar industry because people think there's an easy way out. Problem is, some like the Atkins diet had the right idea, but were poor in implementation, and did not encourage life-long changes. As the problem with any diet, people tend to just diet then go back to crappy eating habits, resulting in offsetting whatever good they did.

- Low fat = healthy. This goes along with the eggs misconception. Not only has this been proven wrong, but it's now a dangerous way of eating. Foods extremely good for you will have decent amount of fat, like almonds, peanuts, ground beef, peanut butter (low carb/sodium peanut butter), and yes, cheese.. block and string cheese, the decent kind, will have no carbs.

 

Learn to substitute or remove bad things:

- For example, my wife makes homemade meatballs with ground beef, egg, and rather than bread crumbs (loaded with carbs), uses almond meal.. taste not affected whatsoever..

- One can substitute pasta, flour, etc. with low carb options that hardly affect taste whatsoever. 

- Fast food burgers are technically not bad, provided they're eaten in small portions.. but learn where to skimp.. no need to go crazy on condiments, if you can do without the buns, it will help (they're pure carbs)

- One doesn't absolutely have to stop eating junk entirely, just eat in really small portions..

 

Your body works against you:

- Foods dense in carbs (i.e. sugar) mess with your brain's reward system

- Brain releases hormones/chemicals that make the body rely more on these foods, due to the reward system/pathway

- Works against you because you need to maintain certain amounts to get the same reward, if not increasing amounts

- Side effects of not getting enough include depression, anxiety, withdrawal symptoms, etc.

- If you're on a diet that consists of high carbs (sugars particularly), getting off it will be very tough, you will go through physiological withdrawals, along with psychological. Shaking, altered bowel movements, and the constant irritation of your body trying to convince you to have more of it, can last from days to a month or so depending on prior intake.

[TBoneTX 44,669]

Very interesting.  We need more threads like this.  It took a lot of work for you to compile this.

Edited April 28, 2017 by TBoneTX

[IAMX 3,055]

1 hour ago, TBoneTX said:

Very interesting.  We need more threads like this.  It took a lot of work for you to compile this.

I was diagnosed with S1 NAFLD, and while it is not even remotely serious, it prompted me to do endless hours of research not only about the liver but better life-long food choices. Liver disease is a silent killer because most people don't know they have it, there are no symptoms for the first few stages, I've heard of people having no symptoms even into cirrhosis, and it only takes a few years of ####### diet to go from perfectly healthy liver to fibrotic scarring. 

 

Estimates are around 25% of Americans have NAFLD, that's way too high for such little attention:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease-america-s-greatest-health-risk-of-2015/

 

Also this doesn't only affect obese people, I'm 5'11 180 pounds , and my hepatologist pointed out she sees a lot of similar cases now. My oldest sister who is 29, never been above 95 pounds in her life, also has NAFLD. It was her diagnosis that prompted me to get blood tests.

[OriZ 3,157]

4 hours ago, IAMX said:

I was diagnosed with S1 NAFLD, and while it is not even remotely serious, it prompted me to do endless hours of research not only about the liver but better life-long food choices. Liver disease is a silent killer because most people don't know they have it, there are no symptoms for the first few stages, I've heard of people having no symptoms even into cirrhosis, and it only takes a few years of ####### diet to go from perfectly healthy liver to fibrotic scarring. 

 

Estimates are around 25% of Americans have NAFLD, that's way too high for such little attention:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease-america-s-greatest-health-risk-of-2015/

 

Also this doesn't only affect obese people, I'm 5'11 180 pounds , and my hepatologist pointed out she sees a lot of similar cases now. My oldest sister who is 29, never been above 95 pounds in her life, also has NAFLD. It was her diagnosis that prompted me to get blood tests.

I usually get my liver levels(well along with CBC and almost everything else under the sun) tested every 6 months or so. If your ALT, AST or bilirubin is out of whack that can give you a huge first indication. That's how we found out my wife has PBC. Thankfully the treatment we have come up with for her, which includes both conventional(ursodiol) and unconventional(mostly dietary supplements and herbs etc) methods of therapy brought the levels back within range to the point where they're better than mine now.

Edited April 28, 2017 by OriZ

[yuna628 9,646]

4 hours ago, OriZ said:

I usually get my liver levels(well along with CBC and almost everything else under the sun) tested every 6 months or so. If your ALT, AST or bilirubin is out of whack that can give you a huge first indication. That's how we found out my wife has PBC. Thankfully the treatment we have come up with for her, which includes both conventional(ursodiol) and unconventional(mostly dietary supplements and herbs etc) methods of therapy brought the levels back within range to the point where they're better than mine now.

Have you tried Milk Thistle? My old dog was born with a variety of genetic problems (puppy mill we think) and by the time he was 10months he had his first episode. Took a while to figure out all the root problems he had going on but one of them was an inoperable type of microvascular liver shunt. His liver was poisoning his body. Most of the conventional treatments we use for humans - like ursodiol and other cocktails of drugs is a standby. Initially they didn't think he'd survive past age 2, and he lasted 8 years. with round the clock care, homecooked liver-diet, and Milk Thistle (which helps repair damaged liver cells). They put it into a pill form for dogs now - but the drug really kept him stable for years before other issues began cropping up. It's great for humans too.

[OriZ 3,157]

25 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Have you tried Milk Thistle? My old dog was born with a variety of genetic problems (puppy mill we think) and by the time he was 10months he had his first episode. Took a while to figure out all the root problems he had going on but one of them was an inoperable type of microvascular liver shunt. His liver was poisoning his body. Most of the conventional treatments we use for humans - like ursodiol and other cocktails of drugs is a standby. Initially they didn't think he'd survive past age 2, and he lasted 8 years. with round the clock care, homecooked liver-diet, and Milk Thistle (which helps repair damaged liver cells). They put it into a pill form for dogs now - but the drug really kept him stable for years before other issues began cropping up. It's great for humans too.

We actually pretty much started out with milk thistle it's one of the first things we've tried, and it helped, but I wanted to move onto even better and safer stuff. There is not enough research on whether or not milk thistle is safe in longer term use, and we wanted something that could be used safely for decades. Also much of the research on milk thistle in the past 20 years has been done with lab extracts, and often intravenous administration of Silymarin extracts that are commercially unavailable to consumers. Duplicating those results with an oral milk thistle product is sometimes difficult. 

 

Have you ever heard of Livercare by Himalaya? Great company, great ingredients in every product, and great product in this case. A little on the pricey side, but they're worth it. That's just one of the things we use but there's others. Ubiquinol can also help the liver even though that's not the primary reason people usually take it. There's more and I could go alot more indepth but it would take hours lol

 

Milk thistle and selenium are more well known and popular, but I think LiverCare does everything they do and more, with a synergistic clinically proven combination of herbs that have been on the market worldwide since the 1950's and in the US since the 1990's. It also has double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials that verify its usefulness and provides proven support for your liver. When my wife was first diagnosed with lupus(it was before we even met and before the PBC diagnosis or the other dozen or do conditions she has) they gave her 10 years max. 18 years later she's kicking with usually no signs of anything except for the joint and muscle(myatonia) pain. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by OriZ

[IAMX 3,055]

38 minutes ago, OriZ said:

We actually pretty much started out with milk thistle it's one of the first things we've tried, and it helped, but I wanted to move onto even better and safer stuff. There is not enough research on whether or not milk thistle is safe in longer term use, and we wanted something that could be used safely for decades. Also much of the research on milk thistle in the past 20 years has been done with lab extracts, and often intravenous administration of Silymarin extracts that are commercially unavailable to consumers. Duplicating those results with an oral milk thistle product is sometimes difficult. 

 

Have you ever heard of Livercare by Himalaya? Great company, great ingredients in every product, and great product in this case. A little on the pricey side, but they're worth it. That's just one of the things we use but there's others. Ubiquinol can also help the liver even though that's not the primary reason people usually take it. There's more and I could go alot more indepth but it would take hours lol

 

Milk thistle and selenium are more well known and popular, but I think LiverCare does everything they do and more, with a synergistic clinically proven combination of herbs that have been on the market worldwide since the 1950's and in the US since the 1990's. It also has double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials that verify its usefulness and provides proven support for your liver. When my wife was first diagnosed with lupus(it was before we even met and before the PBC diagnosis or the other dozen or do conditions she has) they gave her 10 years max. 18 years later she's kicking with usually no signs of anything except for the joint and muscle(myatonia) pain. 

Ouch.. especially to the part in bold. From what I see of this disease is it obstructs the portal vein/biliary ducts, which almost mimics general liver disease as a result of high carb diets. 

 

Normally I'd cringe at trying any products that don't have explicit approval from those working in endocrinology/metabolism, but if my wife were in the same situation I'm sure I'd be deviating as much as possible to do whatever it took. Crossing my fingers you guys can keep up the good work and she can live a long life.

Edited April 28, 2017 by IAMX

[OriZ 3,157]

2 hours ago, IAMX said:

Ouch.. especially to the part in bold. From what I see of this disease is it obstructs the portal vein/biliary ducts, which almost mimics general liver disease as a result of high carb diets. 

 

Normally I'd cringe at trying any products that don't have explicit approval from those working in endocrinology/metabolism, but if my wife were in the same situation I'm sure I'd be deviating as much as possible to do whatever it took. Crossing my fingers you guys can keep up the good work and she can live a long life.

Thanks. At this point there's no reason for concern because it's looking good but of course it can change at any moment so we take it one day at a time. Even her liver doc said so long as it's looking good we can treat it as if it's a healthy liver(mentally - not in the way of drinking a ton of alcohol and devouring fast food) and not be alarmed. The time when they gave her the 10 years was before the PBC - we still don't know if that was just part of it and they just didn't know(for the longest time the doctors in Wisconsin blamed her high liver levels on her being a closet alcoholic even though she rarely drinks - it wasn't until she was in Israel with me where they actually tried to figure it out and found the PBC) or if it was only the lupus. It attacked so sudden and so fast and hard that they just expected it to continue like that. She ended up in multisystem organ failure and in a coma for days...so they didn't see a way it doesn't kill her within 10 years. Then again all the docs in WI seem to be high so I guess ya just never know, so far so good.

 

Regarding products, I'm not and even before that never was afraid to try natural remedies. I much prefer them over all the chemicals they keep trying to shove down our throat.

[IAMX 3,055]

6 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Thanks. At this point there's no reason for concern because it's looking good but of course it can change at any moment so we take it one day at a time. Even her liver doc said so long as it's looking good we can treat it as if it's a healthy liver(mentally - not in the way of drinking a ton of alcohol and devouring fast food) and not be alarmed. The time when they gave her the 10 years was before the PBC - we still don't know if that was just part of it and they just didn't know(for the longest time the doctors in Wisconsin blamed her high liver levels on her being a closet alcoholic even though she rarely drinks - it wasn't until she was in Israel with me where they actually tried to figure it out and found the PBC) or if it was only the lupus. It attacked so sudden and so fast and hard that they just expected it to continue like that. She ended up in multisystem organ failure and in a coma for days...so they didn't see a way it doesn't kill her within 10 years. Then again all the docs in WI seem to be high so I guess ya just never know, so far so good.

 

Regarding products, I'm not and even before that never was afraid to try natural remedies. I much prefer them over all the chemicals they keep trying to shove down our throat.

Regarding high liver levels (I assume you mean CBC et al you were talking about earlier as indicators of liver infllammation and enzyme issues) that's certainly possible without drugs and alcohol, which was part of the premise I made this topic.  That's also one of the reasons I'd personally be cautious of products.. at this point I consider pasta at 60g of carbs per serving to be a detriment to the liver, something no one else likely considers unhealthy (and I certainly never did before, as a huge fan of pasta).

Edited April 28, 2017 by IAMX

[OriZ 3,157]

1 hour ago, IAMX said:

Regarding high liver levels (I assume you mean CBC et al you were talking about earlier as indicators of liver infllammation and enzyme issues) that's certainly possible without drugs and alcohol, which was part of the premise I made this topic.  That's also one of the reasons I'd personally be cautious of products.. at this point I consider pasta at 60g of carbs per serving to be a detriment to the liver, something no one else likely considers unhealthy (and I certainly never did before, as a huge fan of pasta).

Well CBC and liver enzymes are two different things but yeah the liver panel basically. It is possible without drugs and alcohol but you have some dummy docs who to this day believe it's not. Even now, she'll go to a new doctor for something else and they will notice she has PBC and they will tell her to stop drinking and won't believe her that she doesn't, it's insane. So yes, there are definitely other factors, some of which you mentioned, also an important one is hormones. Most people don't realize that but that's part of why we try to do as much organic as possible, especially when it comes to dairy and vegetables and meat. Some people think it's just a fad and that it's not necessary, to me it's very serious. Why would I want excessive amounts of growth hormones, pesticides and antibiotics when I can avoid them?

 

I love pasta as well and not willing to give it up. I don't eat it every day so as long as it's in moderation I'm good with it.

[IAMX 3,055]

2 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Well CBC and liver enzymes are two different things but yeah the liver panel basically. It is possible without drugs and alcohol but you have some dummy docs who to this day believe it's not. Even now, she'll go to a new doctor for something else and they will notice she has PBC and they will tell her to stop drinking and won't believe her that she doesn't, it's insane. So yes, there are definitely other factors, some of which you mentioned, also an important one is hormones. Most people don't realize that but that's part of why we try to do as much organic as possible, especially when it comes to dairy and vegetables and meat. Some people think it's just a fad and that it's not necessary, to me it's very serious. Why would I want excessive amounts of growth hormones, pesticides and antibiotics when I can avoid them?

 

I love pasta as well and not willing to give it up. I don't eat it every day so as long as it's in moderation I'm good with it.

LOL. I know I shouldn't be laughing but my experience is actually similar. When I was initially diagnosed with fatty liver (not yet NAFLD) they treated me like an alcoholic, because I'm not 600 pounds. It wasn't until they realized after further tests that this wasn't an alcohol related problem that they believed me. A lot of stuff I was eating I didn't even realize was actually unhealthy and absolutely loaded with carbs, like most bread, tortillas, pasta, cereals (I had made sure every US trip we did every 6-12 months we got Peanut Butter Crunch and Oh's Cereal, since they don't have it in Canada), etc. As I started to get older (am 34 now) my metabolism changed, so while I wouldn't have booze that much (maybe a few times a year?), I'd primarily do mixes like 50/50 of Captain Morgan and Cherry Coke, in a glass the size of one of those fast food XL cups, apparently not only is hard liquor bad for the liver (worse than beer that is, I always had thought beer to be worse due to the carbs), but very obviously the soda is too. It really didn't take much to piss off my liver.

 

So I made some minor changes to my diet, sticking primarily to protein foods like meat, almonds, peanuts, eggs., and of course vegetables, all in very small portions. I used to love enchilada casserole but even in small portions its just way too much carbs. While I'm at my normal weight of 180 now I think I might do some more permanent changes to my diet and try and get down to 150-160 just so my 40s and 50s don't come up and destroy me.  Might actually do better for my back problems too. 

[OriZ 3,157]

3 hours ago, IAMX said:

LOL. I know I shouldn't be laughing but my experience is actually similar. When I was initially diagnosed with fatty liver (not yet NAFLD) they treated me like an alcoholic, because I'm not 600 pounds. It wasn't until they realized after further tests that this wasn't an alcohol related problem that they believed me. A lot of stuff I was eating I didn't even realize was actually unhealthy and absolutely loaded with carbs, like most bread, tortillas, pasta, cereals (I had made sure every US trip we did every 6-12 months we got Peanut Butter Crunch and Oh's Cereal, since they don't have it in Canada), etc. As I started to get older (am 34 now) my metabolism changed, so while I wouldn't have booze that much (maybe a few times a year?), I'd primarily do mixes like 50/50 of Captain Morgan and Cherry Coke, in a glass the size of one of those fast food XL cups, apparently not only is hard liquor bad for the liver (worse than beer that is, I always had thought beer to be worse due to the carbs), but very obviously the soda is too. It really didn't take much to piss off my liver.

 

So I made some minor changes to my diet, sticking primarily to protein foods like meat, almonds, peanuts, eggs., and of course vegetables, all in very small portions. I used to love enchilada casserole but even in small portions its just way too much carbs. While I'm at my normal weight of 180 now I think I might do some more permanent changes to my diet and try and get down to 150-160 just so my 40s and 50s don't come up and destroy me.  Might actually do better for my back problems too. 

I don't think weight is the end all be all, and I ignore stuff like BMI because it's way lacking. According to my BMI, I'm borderline overweight even though I only weigh 166 pounds. My goal is actually not to lose weight but to gain some, just not in the form of fat but put on more muscle mass. They still treat her like an alcoholic, more than a decade later. I remember when she had her neck surgery, I was there with her it was back in 08, 9 years after being diagnosed with lupus, and prior to being diagnosed with pbc(which wasn't till 2012). Before going into surgery the anaesthesiologist reviewed some of her bloodwork with her, and asked her about drinking which she of course denied. We then noticed him going and showing someone else the chart(can't remember what kind of doc it was) and going "look at her liver levels, she denies drinking". Nobody ever bothered taking a second look, they just assumed she was lying. Had those dummies done their job and didn't wait for the Israeli doctors to do it for them, we may have been able to catch it at a much earlier stage.

 

I just had oh's an hour ago! lol. I do like bread but don't eat it as much as I used to and never white bread. I was never a big drinker so I don't worry about that at all. Neither of us do soda often. Eggs, peanuts, almonds, all great, I also like brazil nuts. We do do alot of dairy in this house(more than meat) and I'll never give up my cheese.

[IAMX 3,055]

5 hours ago, OriZ said:

I don't think weight is the end all be all, and I ignore stuff like BMI because it's way lacking. According to my BMI, I'm borderline overweight even though I only weigh 166 pounds. My goal is actually not to lose weight but to gain some, just not in the form of fat but put on more muscle mass. They still treat her like an alcoholic, more than a decade later. I remember when she had her neck surgery, I was there with her it was back in 08, 9 years after being diagnosed with lupus, and prior to being diagnosed with pbc(which wasn't till 2012). Before going into surgery the anaesthesiologist reviewed some of her bloodwork with her, and asked her about drinking which she of course denied. We then noticed him going and showing someone else the chart(can't remember what kind of doc it was) and going "look at her liver levels, she denies drinking". Nobody ever bothered taking a second look, they just assumed she was lying. Had those dummies done their job and didn't wait for the Israeli doctors to do it for them, we may have been able to catch it at a much earlier stage.

 

I just had oh's an hour ago! lol. I do like bread but don't eat it as much as I used to and never white bread. I was never a big drinker so I don't worry about that at all. Neither of us do soda often. Eggs, peanuts, almonds, all great, I also like brazil nuts. We do do alot of dairy in this house(more than meat) and I'll never give up my cheese.

Yessss. There's a huge misconception about cheese, just like eggs, due to fat content, but it's the carbs that one should be paying attention to. 0 carbs in decent block and string cheese. Overall, healthy.

 

I recall an interview with ScarJo where she said she was embarrassed to tell people she liked eating cheese.. like, why?

[OriZ 3,157]

4 hours ago, IAMX said:

Yessss. There's a huge misconception about cheese, just like eggs, due to fat content, but it's the carbs that one should be paying attention to. 0 carbs in decent block and string cheese. Overall, healthy.

 

I recall an interview with ScarJo where she said she was embarrassed to tell people she liked eating cheese.. like, why?

Well, I can't say it's kind to your cholesterol. Too much cheese is definitely not healthy. Your body also needs some carbs, it can actually kill you if your ratio of protein/carbs/fat is way off.

[IAMX 3,055]

8 hours ago, OriZ said:

Well, I can't say it's kind to your cholesterol. Too much cheese is definitely not healthy. Your body also needs some carbs, it can actually kill you if your ratio of protein/carbs/fat is way off.

I imagine some sort of acidosis through excess ketones but for the most part your body needs very few unless one is an athlete or bodybuilder.