Police arrest at least 20 as protesters clash at pro-Trump rally in Berkeley

[Dashinka 24,109]

2 hours ago, yuna628 said:

And you got your wish. You voted for 'Satan' who enjoys spending most of his days using your money to breathe the air in Florida.

All jokes aside, you do know that unfortunately there are some that did vote for Trump, not because they believe he's a good person or will be helpful to America, but because they believe he is an anti-Christ that will kick off WWIII, an apocalypse, and bring back Jesus from Heaven or merely elected him so that something along the lines those two geezers in the gun aisle were whispering about would happen, and that the true 'Holy Warrior' Mike Pence would take his place. Anything to further along the 'cause', just FYI. Crazy pants I know, but it's true.

 

And even though I'll be disagreed with here, I just don't see Sanders beating him. I'm happy that there are people that are slowly maybe beginning to see that single payer might work or that we need a different perspective on things. But all I see from Republicans, especially those hardliners, is screaming that Bernie is a socialist and is evil and his type of revolutionary thinking is a threat to society. Of course they also said that about Hillary when they forgot that way back when they actually did support her in a previous election...

Actually, based on what NB said, Hillary was worse than Satan, so anyone other than her would be better including Satan. 

 

The whole WWIII thing happens every time.  People thought Reagan was going to destroy the world, and what did we get, a fall of the Iron Curtain.  I have a hard time believing the kooks you are referring to made up a large portion of the electorate that voted for him, but they were there, just as there were kooks that voted for Hillary.

 

As to Bernie, he seems to be espousing ideas that have proven not to work.  Yes, he is a socialist and he proudly admits it.  What is evil about pointing out the failures of socialism (their are so many), and his talk about forming a true democracy out of our current constitutional republic seems a bit off as well.  How many true democracies do you know that has succeeded?  I know socialists always want to describe their political positions as revolutionary, but in reality, it is just a lot of old tired and failed systems that usually lead to some form of totalitarianism. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Bill & Katya

[smilesammich 10,727]

11 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

How conflicting can you be?  Personally I agree with most of what you said, but when you espouse non-violence, then say someone that says something you don't like they should be punched.  I cannot stand the current incarnation of those that call themselves neo-Nazis, but in this country they do have a right to peaceably assemble.  The best way to combat them is to ignore them and educate others about what is wrong with their message.  If you punch them in the face you will be giving them recognition, and possibly be facing criminal charges yourself.

 

I would love to say that anyone who espouses socialism, or as it is now being named "Democratic Socialism" should be punched in the face, but that is not the answer.  It is best to keep showing people how these political-economic systems do not work.

white supremacy is not 'an opinion' that is espoused without violence. anyone who says white supremacists are capable of non violence or that their intentions ever are nonviolence.. is a fool. i'll say it again, neo nazis white supremacists racist pos..they all have the right to assemble and let everyone know how special and white they are and how they'd like to cleanse this nation of impure peoples. awesome. dandy. you and others keep telling me there are repercussions for violence, you're darn tootin there are. racists embody violence towards others and godspeed they get theirs. weird that this bothers so many of you.

i'm terribly sorry that you can equate democratic socialism with white supremacy and nazis.  white supremacy is not a political-economic system. but thanks for the lol.

[CaliCat 3,957]

12 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Actually, based on what NB said, Hillary was worse than Satan, so anyone other than her would be better including Satan. 

 

The whole WWIII thing happens every time.  People thought Reagan was going to destroy the world, and what did we get, a fall of the Iron Curtain.  I have a hard time believing the kooks you are referring to made up a large portion of the electorate that voted for him, but they were there, just as there were kooks that voted for Hillary.

 

As to Bernie, he seems to be espousing ideas that have proven not to work.  Yes, he is a socialist and he proudly admits it.  What is evil about pointing out the failures of socialism (their are so many), and his talk about forming a true democracy out of our current constitutional republic seems a bit off as well.  How many true democracies do you know that has succeeded?  I know socialists always want to describe their political positions as revolutionary, but in reality, it is just a lot of old tired and failed systems that usually lead to some form of totalitarianism. 

 

That is where the conversation devolves. It could be said that Trump is better than Satan, but it carries as much weight as saying Hillary was worse than Cookie Monster. 

 

It seems he derailed his own thread.

[CaliCat 3,957]

8 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

white supremacy is not 'an opinion' that is espoused without violence. anyone who says white supremacists are capable of non violence or that their intentions ever are nonviolence.. is a fool. i'll say it again, neo nazis white supremacists racist pos..they all have the right to assemble and let everyone know how special and white they are and how they'd like to cleanse this nation of impure peoples. awesome. dandy. you and others keep telling me there are repercussions for violence, you're darn tootin there are. racists embody violence towards others and godspeed they get theirs. weird that this bothers so many of you.

i'm terribly sorry that you can equate democratic socialism with white supremacy and nazis.  white supremacy is not a political-economic system. but thanks for the lol.

 

The only reason nazis and white supremacists assemble is to incite violence. It's sad that many don't realize that, because the entire premise of their movement is violence. These people can bury their heads in the sand all they want, but they need to understand that there are places and people who not only don't appreciate what htey stand for, and are wiling to make their voices heard loud and clear.

 

To draw a parallel that the MDRs will understand, you can say that the people of California were standing their ground against the neo-nazis who thought a university campus would be a good place to show their gluts.

 

The message was clear: Not in our state.

[smilesammich 10,727]

2 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

The only reason nazis and white supremacists assemble is to incite violence. It's sad that many don't realize that, because the entire premise of their movement is violence. These people can bury their heads in the sand all they want, but they need to understand that there are places and people who not only don't appreciate what htey stand for, and are wiling to make their voices heard loud and clear.

 

To draw a parallel that the MDRs will understand, you can say that the people of California were standing their ground against the neo-nazis who thought a university campus would be a good place to show their gluts.

 

The message was clear: Not in our state.

exactly. 

 

eta: i feel like its kind of easy for white people in general to relate to the whole 'white pride' thing. like why can't we be proud of being white/i'm not racist and i've never owned any slaves. and these are people who need to take a few steps back and understand this is how nazis/ws lure in angry/jaded youth. this is exactly how they do it. just give em a chance..they don't hate anyone, they just want to be proud of who they are. utter bs.

Edited April 19, 2017 by smilesammich

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

Just now, smilesammich said:

exactly. 

Ok so it's ok to use violence against people you disagree with, because you think that is what they want. 

 

 

[smilesammich 10,727]

4 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

Ok so it's ok to use violence against people you disagree with, because you think that is what they want. 

 

 

HOW MANY TIMES. i disagree with tons of people i actually like. i disagree with people i'd take a bullet for. no, i don't think its okay to 'use violence' against people i 'disagree' with.

 

also, nazis and ws want violence. like i said previously, if you don't realize this, you're being naive.

Edited April 19, 2017 by smilesammich

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

3 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

HOW MANY TIMES. i disagree with tons of people i actually like. i disagree with people i'd take a bullet for. no, i don't think its okay to 'use violence' against people i 'disagree' with. 

But you have said repeat times it's ok to punch people you think are Nazis in the face. 

 

I have stood on a riot line between people like you and skin/nazis

Edited April 19, 2017 by Nature Boy Flair

[smilesammich 10,727]

2 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

But you have said repeat times it's ok to punch people you think are Nazis in the face. 

 

I have stood on a riot line between people like you and skin/nazis

yes. it's okay. i enjoy the vines. nazis deserve punches to the face. 

 

people like me? whew. so relieved there was no possible way to lump me in with skins/nazis.

[CaliCat 3,957]

17 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

exactly. 

 

eta: i feel like its kind of easy for white people in general to relate to the whole 'white pride' thing. like why can't we be proud of being white/i'm not racist and i've never owned any slaves. and these are people who need to take a few steps back and understand this is how nazis/ws lure in angry/jaded youth. this is exactly how they do it. just give em a chance..they don't hate anyone, they just want to be proud of who they are. utter bs.

 

Sadly, there are many who buy into that #######. They don't hate anyone in particular. Their hatred is equal to anyone who's different.

[yuna628 9,646]

1 hour ago, smilesammich said:

white supremacy is not 'an opinion' that is espoused without violence. anyone who says white supremacists are capable of non violence or that their intentions ever are nonviolence.. is a fool. i'll say it again, neo nazis white supremacists racist pos..they all have the right to assemble and let everyone know how special and white they are and how they'd like to cleanse this nation of impure peoples. awesome. dandy. you and others keep telling me there are repercussions for violence, you're darn tootin there are. racists embody violence towards others and godspeed they get theirs. weird that this bothers so many of you.

i'm terribly sorry that you can equate democratic socialism with white supremacy and nazis.  white supremacy is not a political-economic system. but thanks for the lol.

Imagine if we had a group of supposed self-identifying American Muslims that loved guns, religion, superiority of their race and religion over others, murdering people, and ethnic cleansing. Why I think we'd pretty much label them terrorists and say that their type of speech wasn't free speech at all. It would be downright un-American and need to be run out of town or hung or treason. We'd be terrified of large masses assembling in the streets. Makes you wonder how neo-Nazi white supremacists/nationalists and those of their ilk manage to just skate on by.... I mean they did used to kill people for fun-times (and still do), some of them assemble militias and make bombs to kill people (and still do), and now mostly go about inciting riots and assaulting people feeling emboldened that they can do whatever the heck they want with no consequences. They also like to rebrand themselves to lure the kids in, like some slick marketing messaging some other terrorists we know about picked up on...

 

These thoughts won't be enjoyed by some I know. But yay for free speech opinions? ((to sum up: Nazis/neo-nazis/and WS/Nats are terrorists. but also begs the larger philosophical question: do terrorists of any sort have the right to free speech and assemble in large groups in America? or is it only certain kinds? Some will immediately go to old tropes like BLM or the BP's or NOI as weird examples - but there is nothing so prevalent or as old standing tradition in this country as having a free pass on their advocating violence as Nazis...))

Edited April 19, 2017 by yuna628

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

1 hour ago, CaliCat said:

 

The only reason nazis and white supremacists assemble is to incite violence.  

to be fair...that is also the Antifa goal

[yuna628 9,646]

7 minutes ago, ccneat said:

to be fair...that is also the Antifa goal

I would agree overall that many anti-fascists self-identify as anarchists, who want to equally watch the world descend into chaos - which ironically is almost nearly the same exact position those on the religious right also have, who voted for Trump in the hopes of the apocalypse being triggered... same goals different approach.

 

But many other anti-fascists are young kids that are simply terrified their country is being destroyed and feel hopeless as to how to stop it. It's a good way to lure kids in.

Edited April 19, 2017 by yuna628

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

1 minute ago, yuna628 said:

I would agree overall that many anti-fascists self-identify as anarchists, who want to equally watch the world descend into chaos - which ironically is almost nearly the same exact position those on the religious right also have, who voted for Trump in the hopes of the apocalypse being triggered... same goals different approach.

 

But many other anti-fascists are young kids that are simply terrified their country is being destroyed and feel hopeless as to how to stop it. It's a good way to lure kids in.

After seeing several documentaries on this topic, there is a parallel path for Extreme right wing groups in how they indoctrinate vulnerable young adults.

[smilesammich 10,727]

13 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Imagine if we had a group of supposed self-identifying American Muslims that loved guns, religion, superiority of their race and religion over others, murdering people, and ethnic cleansing. Why I think we'd pretty much label them terrorists and say that their type of speech wasn't free speech at all. It would be downright un-American and need to be run out of town or hung or treason. We'd be terrified of large masses assembling in the streets. Makes you wonder how neo-Nazi white supremacists/nationalists and those of their ilk manage to just skate on by.... I mean they did used to kill people for fun-times (and still do), some of them assemble militias and make bombs to kill people (and still do), and now mostly go about inciting riots and assaulting people feeling emboldened that they can do whatever the heck they want with no consequences. They also like to rebrand themselves to lure the kids in, like some slick marketing messaging some other terrorists we know about picked up on...

 

These thoughts won't be enjoyed by some I know. But yay for free speech opinions? ((to sum up: Nazis/neo-nazis/and WS/Nats are terrorists. but also begs the larger philosophical question: do terrorists of any sort have the right to free speech and assemble in large groups in America? or is it only certain kinds? Some will immediately go to old tropes like BLM or the BP's or NOI as weird examples - but there is nothing so prevalent or as old standing tradition in this country as having a free pass on their advocating violence as Nazis...))

would never fly. same reason people flip their wigs over black panthers outside a voting booth, or want so badly to peg black people as capable of racism of the same caliber as the powers that be.

 

4 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I would agree overall that many anti-fascists self-identify as anarchists, who want to equally watch the world descend into chaos - which ironically is almost nearly the same exact position those on the religious right also have, who voted for Trump in the hopes of the apocalypse being triggered... same goals different approach.

anarchists don't want to watch the world descend into chaos for the sake of chaos or the end of existence. the religious right want the world to end because that means rapture and heaven. i personally can't compare the two.