Police arrest at least 20 as protesters clash at pro-Trump rally in Berkeley

[Dashinka 24,493]

16 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Like I said both sides are guilty, but my personal impression(and it's not the first time in this forum that I voice my opinion on that and we've also seen and shown many examples) is that especially these days, you see it coming from the left much more often than you do the right. It doesn't offend me since I don't see myself as neither left or right, I just call it like I see it. How many violent protests have you seen coming from the right in college campuses to prevent a leftist from speaking? I mean even in this very forum we've had debates here where the MDL tries to tell us there's just one way to see it, one truth, nothing else. I have not seen anyone on the MDR here try to say that, or at least not nearly as often. My perception is most people on the right realize and recognize that everyone has different views and is entitled to them. The majority on the left does as well, but again, I think they are becoming increasingly intolerant to differing views, much more than the right. Again it's just my opinion and you're free to disagree of course!(see what I did there? ).

An interesting anecdotal story.  I have a few friends in Arizona that could be described as MDR, and they have a neighbor couple that are very much MDL.  If the MDRs espouse any political view to the MDL couple that differ from their left wing views, they are essentially shouted down as being "pick your derogatory phrase applied to any MDR" and cut off.  However, if the MDL couple espouse their left wing views to the MDRs, the MDRs just have to listen and tolerate it.  It may be anecdotal, but it is a good example of the intolerance of differing political views from the MDL and the tolerance from the MDR.

[OriZ 3,157]

Just now, Bill & Katya said:

An interesting anecdotal story.  I have a few friends in Arizona that could be described as MDR, and they have a neighbor couple that are very much MDL.  If the MDRs espouse any political view to the MDL couple that differ from their left wing views, they are essentially shouted down as being "pick your derogatory phrase applied to any MDR" and cut off.  However, if the MDL couple espouse their left wing views to the MDRs, the MDRs just have to listen and tolerate it.  It may be anecdotal, but it is a good example of the intolerance of differing political views from the MDL and the tolerance from the MDR.

It may be anecdotal but I'm sure we all have the same examples(I know me and my family do). I'm sure there's also reverse examples we are unaware of, but all we can go by is our own experiences.

[bcking 3,157]

15 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Like I said both sides are guilty, but my personal impression(and it's not the first time in this forum that I voice my opinion on that and we've also seen and shown many examples) is that especially these days, you see it coming from the left much more often than you do the right. It doesn't offend me since I don't see myself as neither left or right, I just call it like I see it. How many violent protests have you seen coming from the right in college campuses to prevent a leftist from speaking? I mean even in this very forum we've had debates here where the MDL tries to tell us there's just one way to see it, one truth, nothing else. I have not seen anyone on the MDR here try to say that, or at least not nearly as often. My perception is most people on the right realize and recognize that everyone has different views and is entitled to them. The majority on the left does as well, but again, I think they are becoming increasingly intolerant to differing views, much more than the right. Again it's just my opinion and you're free to disagree of course!(see what I did there? ).

I don't disagree with you on that, but that is I think is the "natural progression" of politics. The more power one side has, the more the other side actively "fights" against it. When our government was more strongly left leaning, you see a lot more of what is happening now coming from the Right. Though I don't remember the last time the left controlled both House/Senate as well as Presidency since the legislative branches historically favor the right (Just looked it up - It was Clinton era in 1995).

 

I think you are reading different forums than I am. Pretty much everyone here is stubborn and never recognises other views as anything other than wrong. I wouldn't say that using memes that equate the left to things like babies, snowflakes, crybabies etc... are all signs that you respect their views.

 

[OriZ 3,157]

Just now, bcking said:

I don't disagree with you on that, but that is I think is the "natural progression" of politics. The more power one side has, the more the other side actively "fights" against it. When our government was more strongly left leaning, you see a lot more of what is happening now coming from the Right. Though I don't remember the last time the left controlled both House/Senate as well as Presidency since the legislative branches historically favor the right (Just looked it up - It was Clinton era in 1995).

 

I think you are reading different forums than I am. Pretty much everyone here is stubborn and never recognises other views as anything other than wrong. I wouldn't say that using memes that equate the left to things like babies, snowflakes, crybabies etc... are all signs that you respect their views.

 

I'm not talking about memes, that's sarcasm and fun and all nice and well and both sides do it. I don't know that it has as much to do with who is in power because we did see it even under Obama, maybe not as bad as right now, but we saw it. The college campus indoctrination began long before Trump got elected. I actually don't read any other forums for politics anymore besides this one. Any other forums I'm involved in are about financial markets. Like I said even in this forum I think intolerance to differing views comes more from the left than the right. Sure there are exceptions on both sides(and I've already noted in the past that you would be one of them over on that "side"). 

[Dashinka 24,493]

6 minutes ago, bcking said:

I don't disagree with you on that, but that is I think is the "natural progression" of politics. The more power one side has, the more the other side actively "fights" against it. When our government was more strongly left leaning, you see a lot more of what is happening now coming from the Right. Though I don't remember the last time the left controlled both House/Senate as well as Presidency since the legislative branches historically favor the right (Just looked it up - It was Clinton era in 1995).

 

I think you are reading different forums than I am. Pretty much everyone here is stubborn and never recognises other views as anything other than wrong. I wouldn't say that using memes that equate the left to things like babies, snowflakes, crybabies etc... are all signs that you respect their views.

 

Ummm, does 2009 through 2011 ring any bells?  This is how the ACA was passed with not a single GOP vote.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Bill & Katya

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, Bill & Katya said:

Ummm, does 2009 through 2011 ring any bells?

Hehe yes I am forgetful  My bad.

 

And yes things were pretty roudy the first couple of years of Obama's Presidency, far more of which came from the right at the time (unsurprisingly).

[bcking 3,157]

4 minutes ago, OriZ said:

I'm not talking about memes, that's sarcasm and fun and all nice and well and both sides do it. I don't know that it has as much to do with who is in power because we did see it even under Obama, maybe not as bad as right now, but we saw it. The college campus indoctrination began long before Trump got elected. I actually don't read any other forums for politics anymore besides this one. Any other forums I'm involved in are about financial markets. Like I said even in this forum I think intolerance to differing views comes more from the left than the right. Sure there are exceptions on both sides(and I've already noted in the past that you would be one of them over on that "side"). 

I agree that Universities tend to lean more one way than the other, though there are several much more conservative universities.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree about intolerance here on these forums. Now I've only been here since November but my observation has been pretty strong intolerance from pretty much everyone.

Edited April 17, 2017 by bcking

[OriZ 3,157]

8 minutes ago, bcking said:

I agree that Universities tend to lean more one way than the other, though there are several much more conservative universities.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree about intolerance here on these forums. Now I've only been here since November but my observation has been pretty strong intolerance from pretty much everyone.

Oh dude you're actually here in one of the better times(at least since I've been here). We're a bunch of tolerant folks nowadays compared to what it used to be. It's funny because the left likes to compare the right and especially Trump and his supporters to Hitler, but the tactics and brainwash I'm seeing by the left especially in places like universities where they try to teach people there's just one ultimate truth remind me much more of the hitler playbook than anything I've seen from the right. The zombie generation it's going to create within a few decades should scare everybody, including those on the left.

 

Going back to this forum for a moment, this may be another anecdotal example but many times especially in the past(again before you were here) when I would express an opinion that's more favorable to the right, I would end up either getting outright attacked/hassled for it, and/or in an hours or days long argument about it. I often also express views that are more favorable to the left and in these instances I have never had anybody on the right here come after me for them. They might shake their head and go yeah ok whatever but nobody tried to make me feel like my opinion is wrong and theirs is right as much as the left likes to do. I have no issue with discourse and explaining my opinions, but when it's done in a respectful manner. I am perfectly fine with not agreeing with you on this or on anything else with anyone else for that matter.

[IAMX 3,055]

1 hour ago, OriZ said:

Like I said both sides are guilty, but my personal impression(and it's not the first time in this forum that I voice my opinion on that and we've also seen and shown many examples) is that especially these days, you see it coming from the left much more often than you do the right. It doesn't offend me since I don't see myself as neither left or right, I just call it like I see it. How many violent protests have you seen coming from the right in college campuses to prevent a leftist from speaking? I mean even in this very forum we've had debates here where the MDL tries to tell us there's just one way to see it, one truth, nothing else. I have not seen anyone on the MDR here try to say that, or at least not nearly as often. My perception is most people on the right realize and recognize that everyone has different views and is entitled to them. The majority on the left does as well, but again, I think they are becoming increasingly intolerant to differing views, much more than the right. Again it's just my opinion and you're free to disagree of course!(see what I did there? ).

Bang on. I notice this exact thing too, minus the acronyms since I don't even know (or care) what they mean.

Edited April 17, 2017 by IAMX

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, OriZ said:

Going back to this forum for a moment, this may be another anecdotal example but many times especially in the past(again before you were here) when I would express an opinion that's more favorable to the right, I would end up either getting outright attacked/hassled for it, and/or in an hours or days long argument about it. I often also express views that are more favorable to the left and in these instances I have never had anybody on the right here come after me for them. They might shake their head and go yeah ok whatever but nobody tried to make me feel like my opinion is wrong and theirs is right as much as the left likes to do. I have no issue with discourse and explaining my opinions, but when it's done in a respectful manner. I am perfectly fine with not agreeing with you on this or on anything else with anyone else for that matter.

Ya I've just seen a different experience I guess. Not even talking about myself specifically, but about people talking amongst each other. 

 

Going back to something you said in a previous post, I'd also say the using sarcasm as a "get out of jail free" card, to basically claim "Hey man I'm not intolerant to your views, I'm just being sarcastic!" just doesn't work with me. It breaks tension for sure, but it doesn't help the argument that people on the right are intolerant to other views. When they don't have anything to say they resort to a funny "meme" and say "Oh hey I'm just being sarcastic, no foul!". It is quite clear, at least in my opinion, what the intentions are.

 

We'll continue to go back and forth on this if you'd like, but we just clearly have a different perspective on what goes on here. Most people on these forums, with exception of you and I can't really think of anyone else, fall quite squarely into one of two piles. Even those who claim they do not "sarcastically", it is typically quite obvious. I'd say a good 80% of the threads here are one of the two groups posting an article to conforms to their world view, and then when you try to point out minor flaws in the argument in the article, or point out where evidence is lacking, they came at you in some form or another. I don't see that happening more or less on the right/left. They are all the same, just turned around.

 

Back on the actual topic of this article - 

 

I still don't know if we will ever get a clear indication of what actually transpired. Since pretty much everyone present was either in one group or the other, those "first hand accounts" are mostly going to be all quite useless. The one previously quoted (though there were no quotation marks) was clearly someone with a specific slant which we have to take with a grain of salt. I'm still trying to find out who specifically was arrested. I've seen like 4 or 5 names but that's it, and I haven't bothered to facebook stalk or anything to figure out where they fall.

 

I won't be surprised though if we find there were more left leaning arrests, but that just goes with the climate right now. We have a man in the highest elected office in the USA who is the least stable person to hold that office in a few decades. His opinion on some of the most critical foreign policy issues have been flipped in the last 2 weeks. He is more accurate with the information he presents about a cake than he is about who he has bombed. People are going to feel anxious. We went from "We aren't going to police the world, America first" to almost the opposite fairly quickly and none of us really know where we are going. That worries people, and unfortunately some people respond to their anxiety and fear with violence. I don't agree with it mind you, I just also don't find it surprising.

[IAMX 3,055]

14 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Oh dude you're actually here in one of the better times(at least since I've been here). We're a bunch of tolerant folks nowadays compared to what it used to be. It's funny because the left likes to compare the right and especially Trump and his supporters to Hitler, but the tactics and brainwash I'm seeing by the left especially in places like universities where they try to teach people there's just one ultimate truth remind me much more of the hitler playbook than anything I've seen from the right. The zombie generation it's going to create within a few decades should scare everybody, including those on the left.

 

Going back to this forum for a moment, this may be another anecdotal example but many times especially in the past(again before you were here) when I would express an opinion that's more favorable to the right, I would end up either getting outright attacked/hassled for it, and/or in an hours or days long argument about it. I often also express views that are more favorable to the left and in these instances I have never had anybody on the right here come after me for them. They might shake their head and go yeah ok whatever but nobody tried to make me feel like my opinion is wrong and theirs is right as much as the left likes to do. I have no issue with discourse and explaining my opinions, but when it's done in a respectful manner. I am perfectly fine with not agreeing with you on this or on anything else with anyone else for that matter.

This is exactly what I get too for refuting the left and I'm not even a Trump voter, nor religious, nor a Republican, LOL.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I don't see any particular innocence on the Right, or Trump supporters (what are you supporting anyway, the man is a flip flopping mess with no clear ideas and an agenda all over the map) in regards to labelling and attacking anyone or anything critical of the alt-Right, Republicans, or whatever in Gods name Donald Trump is. Kind of silly to pretend otherwise.

 

As to the OP it appears both sides were spoiling for a physical fight, and that is pretty stupid.

[OriZ 3,157]

19 minutes ago, bcking said:

Ya I've just seen a different experience I guess. Not even talking about myself specifically, but about people talking amongst each other. 

 

Going back to something you said in a previous post, I'd also say the using sarcasm as a "get out of jail free" card, to basically claim "Hey man I'm not intolerant to your views, I'm just being sarcastic!" just doesn't work with me. It breaks tension for sure, but it doesn't help the argument that people on the right are intolerant to other views. When they don't have anything to say they resort to a funny "meme" and say "Oh hey I'm just being sarcastic, no foul!". It is quite clear, at least in my opinion, what the intentions are.

 

We'll continue to go back and forth on this if you'd like, but we just clearly have a different perspective on what goes on here. Most people on these forums, with exception of you and I can't really think of anyone else, fall quite squarely into one of two piles. Even those who claim they do not "sarcastically", it is typically quite obvious. I'd say a good 80% of the threads here are one of the two groups posting an article to conforms to their world view, and then when you try to point out minor flaws in the argument in the article, or point out where evidence is lacking, they came at you in some form or another. I don't see that happening more or less on the right/left. They are all the same, just turned around.

 

Back on the actual topic of this article - 

 

I still don't know if we will ever get a clear indication of what actually transpired. Since pretty much everyone present was either in one group or the other, those "first hand accounts" are mostly going to be all quite useless. The one previously quoted (though there were no quotation marks) was clearly someone with a specific slant which we have to take with a grain of salt. I'm still trying to find out who specifically was arrested. I've seen like 4 or 5 names but that's it, and I haven't bothered to facebook stalk or anything to figure out where they fall.

 

I won't be surprised though if we find there were more left leaning arrests, but that just goes with the climate right now. We have a man in the highest elected office in the USA who is the least stable person to hold that office in a few decades. His opinion on some of the most critical foreign policy issues have been flipped in the last 2 weeks. He is more accurate with the information he presents about a cake than he is about who he has bombed. People are going to feel anxious. We went from "We aren't going to police the world, America first" to almost the opposite fairly quickly and none of us really know where we are going. That worries people, and unfortunately some people respond to their anxiety and fear with violence. I don't agree with it mind you, I just also don't find it surprising.

Nah that's quite alright man, we're good I do think there's a few others that aren't squarely left or right, even you aren't as left as some. Regarding the last paragraph, just like the memes, that doesn't excuse their behavior. I don't find it surprising but I do find it reprehensible. 

 

3 minutes ago, IAMX said:

This is exactly what I get too for refuting the left and I'm not even a Trump voter, nor religious, nor a Republican, LOL.

Yeah, I haven't seen the right attacking you though for when you say something against Trump, nor me for that matter.

[bcking 3,157]

3 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Nah that's quite alright man, we're good I do think there's a few others that aren't squarely left or right, even you aren't as left as some. Regarding the last paragraph, just like the memes, that doesn't excuse their behavior. I don't find it surprising but I do find it reprehensible. 

 

Ya of course there is no excuse. I said the same thing about the protests immediately after Trump won. I was bummed he won, and I continue to be genuinely concerned for our country with him at the helm, but not to the point of violent protests. 

 

Now there are situations in which I would support violent protests, but they are few and far between. It would have to involve a President/Congress taking egregious liberties with his/their power that warrant action. We aren't even close to that right now. 

 

As for my political position, my actual opinions are generally quite left. I will argue things closer to the middle when I'm actively involved because in arguments I prefer to focus on evidence and data. Most news articles these days take huge liberties with what they say without anything (or very little) to support their arguments, as do most people here and in pretty much any other political discussion. Also bottom line I just like to argue, and will even argue with a point that I agree with just because it is fun, and I don't mind pointing out flaws in my own beliefs.

[OriZ 3,157]

Just now, bcking said:

 

As for my political position, my actual opinions are generally quite left. I will argue things closer to the middle when I'm actively involved because in arguments I prefer to focus on evidence and data. Most news articles these days take huge liberties with what they say without anything (or very little) to support their arguments, as do most people here and in pretty much any other political discussion. Also bottom line I just like to argue, and will even argue with a point that I agree with just because it is fun, and I don't mind pointing out flaws in my own beliefs.

Hey, whatever floats your boat...