Iran's supreme leader calls gender equality 'a Zionist conspiracy'

[smilesammich 10,727]

20 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Again, you are making your own assumptions and making up your own definitions, but it's not what the movement has ever been about at all. "All other marginalized groups"? We're not talking about marginalized groups here, I think you probably aren't aware of Jewish history dating back centuries and the persecution they endured. The movement was created in an attempt to seek a homeland for Jews(btw, they didn't even insist on Palestine, Argentina and Uganda and some others were options as well, so blame the superpowers for agreeing to settle them in Palestine) after centuries of persecution in order to save them and have them be able to run their own lives. It is entirely political, not religious, and has nothing to do with superiority. Again, if you don't think Israel should exist blame the superpowers. If you think other marginalized groups should have their own state, talk to them about that as well. That all has nothing to do with Jews who were the victims for centuries. Moreover, most of these other marginalized groups never had their own ancestral homeland to speak of, whereas Jews did. In fact Jews never completely abandoned that land no matter how much they were being driven away. This has nothing to do with the bible or being Gods chosen people. I don't buy most of what's in the bible, neither do many zionists. Archeological evidence however, a bit more difficult to dispute. Basically, anybody who supports the right of Israel to exist can be considered a zionist, it doesn't matter it you're Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc...if you walked down the street and asked someone if they thought Israel should exist and they said yes, is that because they feel Jews are superior?

yeah, i'm not making anything up. zionism has everything to do with being god's chosen people, it really doesn't matter to me if you think i should blame superpowers because i think that's ridiculous. and i don't think marginalized groups should have their own states, maybe you missed it but i am not a zionist.

you walk down the street in america and ask random people if they think israel should exist and they're going to say yes but they're probably not going to know why they're saying that. i do. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by smilesammich

[OriZ 3,157]

16 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

yeah, i'm not making anything up. zionism has everything to do with being god's chosen people, it really doesn't matter to me if you think i should blame superpowers because i think that's ridiculous. and i don't think marginalized groups should have their own states, maybe you missed it but i am not a zionist.

you walk down the street in america and ask random people if they think israel should exist and they're going to say yes but they're probably not going to know why they're saying that. i do. 

Then again you also claim that no country should exist so it makes sense. Unless you just have something against the marginalized groups

[smilesammich 10,727]

Just now, OriZ said:

Then again you also claim that no country should exist so it makes sense. Unless you just have something against the marginalized groups

no country should exist or i claim individuals have the right to free movement? if you're going to discuss my claims, please at least try to get it right. i get that you're trying to deflect from the fact that you're making my argument for me..zionism is based in the premise that jews are god's chosen people. you can't disprove that, or call it a made up definition. 

you're the one uninterested in any marginalized group EXCEPT FOR jews having their own State but i have something against marginalized groups? just, no logic in that. but at least we can put this whole 'val doesn't know what zionism is perhaps i should tell her' to rest since it's clear you can't prove 'my' definition of zionism is false.

[OriZ 3,157]

16 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

no country should exist or i claim individuals have the right to free movement? if you're going to discuss my claims, please at least try to get it right. i get that you're trying to deflect from the fact that you're making my argument for me..zionism is based in the premise that jews are god's chosen people. you can't disprove that, or call it a made up definition. 

you're the one uninterested in any marginalized group EXCEPT FOR jews having their own State but i have something against marginalized groups? just, no logic in that. but at least we can put this whole 'val doesn't know what zionism is perhaps i should tell her' to rest since it's clear you can't prove 'my' definition of zionism is false.

I did prove it. I told you exactly what it was. You're just refusing to listen. If you think people should have the right to free movement you're essentially saying there should not be countries, because a country without a border is not a country, and if you had millions of other people from another culture moving there that country would cease to be the country it was so again, in essense it wasn't a real sovereign state to start with. I also never claimed I am uninterested in other marginalized groups having their own state. I have no issue with the kurds getting that for instance. But I don't get to decide. Like I said take it up with the powers that be, don't take it out on the people who were persecuted and murdered for centuries and finally did end up getting their own state.

[smilesammich 10,727]

2 minutes ago, OriZ said:

I did prove it. I told you exactly what it was. You're just refusing to listen. If you think people should have the right to free movement you're essentially saying there should not be countries, because a country without a border is not a country, and if you had millions of other people from another culture moving there that country would cease to be the country it was so again, in essense it wasn't a real sovereign state to start with. I also never claimed I am uninterested in other marginalized groups having their own state. I have no issue with the kurds getting that for instance. But I don't get to decide. Like I said take it up with the powers that be, don't take it out on the people who were persecuted and murdered for centuries and finally did end up getting their own state.

you proved it because you told me and i won't listen? 

i'm not going to go back and forth over what you said or didn't say, it's all right here to read. you throwing about 'essentially' to justify whatever what you want me to say and telling me not to 'take it out on the people who were persecuted and murdered for centuries' blah blah blah, that's why i posted the beautiful cher eye roll in the first place. 

[OriZ 3,157]

6 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

you proved it because you told me and i won't listen? 

i'm not going to go back and forth over what you said or didn't say, it's all right here to read. you throwing about 'essentially' to justify whatever what you want me to say and telling me not to 'take it out on the people who were persecuted and murdered for centuries' blah blah blah, that's why i posted the beautiful cher eye roll in the first place. 

Right, because you think zionists and nazis are the same(at least in some ways), and I explained to you how and why they are not, but you already have this image in your head that you've picked up from activists and people such as someone who used to write in this forum and you're refusing to consider a different possibility. It's fine, I really don't care, but it's kind of a waste of time to keep going in circles here, so I'll see ya later tonight.

[smilesammich 10,727]

2 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Right, because you think zionists and nazis are the same(at least in some ways), and I explained to you how and why they are not, but you already have this image in your head that you've picked up from activists and people such as someone who used to write in this forum and you're refusing to consider a different possibility. It's fine, I really don't care, but it's kind of a waste of time to keep going in circles here, so I'll see ya later tonight.

amazing. not only telling me what i think (incorrectly) you're going so far as why i think what i think? 

 

i was raised in a church with christian zionists, i don't think this is the first i've mentioned. but yeah, i get all my ideas and opinions from former cehst members and activists. pick up a lil here, a lil there..

 

[TBoneTX 46,423]

The concept of the chosen people is one of the most misunderstood of any.

[smilesammich 10,727]

1 hour ago, TBoneTX said:

The concept of the chosen people is one of the most misunderstood of any.

it might be a difficult concept to grasp for some, but 'the chosen people' or determining who in fact has been chosen has absolutely nothing to do with zionism.  let's stay on topic shall we? 

[OriZ 3,157]

6 hours ago, smilesammich said:

amazing. not only telling me what i think (incorrectly) you're going so far as why i think what i think? 

 

i was raised in a church with christian zionists, i don't think this is the first i've mentioned. but yeah, i get all my ideas and opinions from former cehst members and activists. pick up a lil here, a lil there..

 

And yet, I'll betcha any money I still know a helluva lot more zionists than you do. What's amazing is you seem to think you know better than us what's in our mind and what we're thinking about. Now that's truly amazing. Unless you can read minds your argument basically holds no merit and is based on nothing but speculation and a few anecdotal experiences. All I told you and can tell you is based on what we get taught, which you would think if it was about superiority, they would be proud to tell us we're superior, not try and hide it. I mean after all isn't that what the nazis did?

 

You also actually just made my point for me. Regardless of the source, you are indeed stuck with a certain image. whether it was because of the church or a different reason, you're going based on your experience in a religious place, a church, how many years ago? so of course you will look at it through religious eyes. I can't speak for the christians in that church, neither can most Israelis. I can tell you that for Jews it's not a religious thing, for christians maybe it is but for Jews it's alot more political than religious. Especially secular Jews, and the zionist movement was started mostly by secular Jews, they were not religious.

 

Also, I have gone to Jewish schools in the US and Israeli schools in Israel and I can tell you not once did anyone ever try to teach me I am superior to you because you are not Jewish. I'm sure that might exist in some fringe orthodox schools or something, but it's definitely not the rule. Like I said before, alot of times the non Jews such as Huckabee and co as well as the ones in your church, seem to take things more to the extreme than the Jewish people do, but that does not mean the Jewish Zionist Movement was founded on those principles. 

 

Don't you think if it was about superiority it would not have taken that long? 2000 years? I mean the only reason it started in the 19th century was the persecution that they were enduring. Otherwise it would have happened sooner. 

Basically what you're saying is if someone is being bullied at school, so they decide to leave the school and start their own school(don't ask how, it's irrelevant), that means they think they're superior to others. Yeah I mean sure eventually they could become a narcissist because of being picked on and whatnot and start feeling superior to everybody else but that's a process that takes a while, it wouldn't be the reason for them to leave the school and start their own, no the reason would be to save themselves.

 

Instead of my question from earlier about asking a random person on the street if Israel should exist or not, lets put it a different way. If you asked a Jew and they said yes, does that mean they think they're superior? Or do they just not know why they need to support it and you know better than they do? 

 

Here's another hypothetical scenario with American Indians just for you. Imagine after most of them are either exiled, or end up in interracial relationships, where basically there's not many of them left that are actually still living traditionally as Indians. Just like there were some Jews that were still in Palestine, despite all the expulsions and everything they went through. So, imagine there was a bunch of Indians who ended up living in Europe. Imagine they were going through persecution for centuries, pogroms, in the end even an event like the holocaust where millions of them were murdered. Now imagine these Indians got together say 1600 years from now, an decided they needed to go back to their ancestral homeland where they won't be persecuted anymore once they have their own state in which they will be the majority. And so imagine that after this horrible event where millions of them got slaughtered, the nations of the world gathered and agreed to give them just a small portion of their historic land, not even all of it but just a little part of a state or states in the US where they used to be, and still are but in much smaller numbers. If you lived around that time would you be in favor of it since that was theirs to start with, or would you be opposed to it because, well, there's Americans living there now. Would you think they are doing it because they feel superior to the Americans, or because they just want to be safe?

 

BTW In regards to me inviting you into the conversation I was using you as an example, yes, but there's plenty of others with the same mindset and attitude so I wasn't like literally talking about you, but we get that example usually through you around here. Regardless, you're always invited.

[OriZ 3,157]

BTW, this has got to be one of the greatest moments in history, @ 1:15

 

 

[smilesammich 10,727]

1 hour ago, OriZ said:

And yet, I'll betcha any money I still know a helluva lot more zionists than you do. What's amazing is you seem to think you know better than us what's in our mind and what we're thinking about. Now that's truly amazing. Unless you can read minds your argument basically holds no merit and is based on nothing but speculation and a few anecdotal experiences. All I told you and can tell you is based on what we get taught, which you would think if it was about superiority, they would be proud to tell us we're superior, not try and hide it. I mean after all isn't that what the nazis did?

 

You also actually just made my point for me. Regardless of the source, you are indeed stuck with a certain image. whether it was because of the church or a different reason, you're going based on your experience in a religious place, a church, how many years ago? so of course you will look at it through religious eyes. I can't speak for the christians in that church, neither can most Israelis. I can tell you that for Jews it's not a religious thing, for christians maybe it is but for Jews it's alot more political than religious. Especially secular Jews, and the zionist movement was started mostly by secular Jews, they were not religious.

 

Also, I have gone to Jewish schools in the US and Israeli schools in Israel and I can tell you not once did anyone ever try to teach me I am superior to you because you are not Jewish. I'm sure that might exist in some fringe orthodox schools or something, but it's definitely not the rule. Like I said before, alot of times the non Jews such as Huckabee and co as well as the ones in your church, seem to take things more to the extreme than the Jewish people do, but that does not mean the Jewish Zionist Movement was founded on those principles. 

 

Don't you think if it was about superiority it would not have taken that long? 2000 years? I mean the only reason it started in the 19th century was the persecution that they were enduring. Otherwise it would have happened sooner. 

Basically what you're saying is if someone is being bullied at school, so they decide to leave the school and start their own school(don't ask how, it's irrelevant), that means they think they're superior to others. Yeah I mean sure eventually they could become a narcissist because of being picked on and whatnot and start feeling superior to everybody else but that's a process that takes a while, it wouldn't be the reason for them to leave the school and start their own, no the reason would be to save themselves.

 

Instead of my question from earlier about asking a random person on the street if Israel should exist or not, lets put it a different way. If you asked a Jew and they said yes, does that mean they think they're superior? Or do they just not know why they need to support it and you know better than they do? 

 

Here's another hypothetical scenario with American Indians just for you. Imagine after most of them are either exiled, or end up in interracial relationships, where basically there's not many of them left that are actually still living traditionally as Indians. Just like there were some Jews that were still in Palestine, despite all the expulsions and everything they went through. So, imagine there was a bunch of Indians who ended up living in Europe. Imagine they were going through persecution for centuries, pogroms, in the end even an event like the holocaust where millions of them were murdered. Now imagine these Indians got together say 1600 years from now, an decided they needed to go back to their ancestral homeland where they won't be persecuted anymore once they have their own state in which they will be the majority. And so imagine that after this horrible event where millions of them got slaughtered, the nations of the world gathered and agreed to give them just a small portion of their historic land, not even all of it but just a little part of a state or states in the US where they used to be, and still are but in much smaller numbers. If you lived around that time would you be in favor of it since that was theirs to start with, or would you be opposed to it because, well, there's Americans living there now. Would you think they are doing it because they feel superior to the Americans, or because they just want to be safe?

 

BTW In regards to me inviting you into the conversation I was using you as an example, yes, but there's plenty of others with the same mindset and attitude so I wasn't like literally talking about you, but we get that example usually through you around here. Regardless, you're always invited.

wow. that's a lot of text for someone responding to a parrot with no beliefs of their own, certainly not based in any sort of experience.  fyi, didn't read you here - skim only. don't want to warp my borrowed perception. though i'd really like to tear you a new one over that native stuff..

[OriZ 3,157]

15 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

wow. that's a lot of text for someone responding to a parrot with no beliefs of their own, certainly not based in any sort of experience.  fyi, didn't read you here - skim only. don't want to warp my borrowed perception. though i'd really like to tear you a new one over that native stuff..

Predictable. Figures. Thanks for playing.

[smilesammich 10,727]

14 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Predictable. Figures. Thanks for playing.

you're welcome, next time i won't bother. until i confirm my point with activists and former cehst posters of course..

[OriZ 3,157]

3 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

you're welcome, next time i won't bother. until i confirm my point with activists and former cehst posters of course..

Did that offend you or something? You seem to keep going back to that. I gave it as an example for the type of people I have seen spreading this false narrative for decades now. I already addressed your church example in my post that you did not read as well.