Fake paystubs

[Californiansunset 336]

The Philippines probably don't allow a co-sponsor for a K1 or do they?! That would be my suggestion for your case if they allow a co-sponsor, immediately go find one. Don't submit any papers of this job that might cause harm at a later date. It might work for the K1 but this will get back to you during AOS when you have to submit your 2016 tax return. They pay a lot more attention to the Affdavit of Support during AOS than before for the K1 visa

[andy78 178]

16 hours ago, BuckeyJ said:

And as I understand fraud can only be proven if there is intent to harm, among other things...

 

"Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim asa result."

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud

 

Don't try this legal dictionary nonsense, kid.   I am not even going to bother quoting the US immigration law and the USCIS policy manual for you. You already know quite well that what you are asking about is FRAUD.

 

 

[neilsqueen 433]

"Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim asa result."

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud

 

#2 is true in your case so you are committing fraud.  You should NEVER lie but especially NEVER lie to the GOVERNMENT!  If you really want to be with your significant other, don't play with fire cause you will definitely get burned! 

 

[KierenHby 899]

18 hours ago, BuckeyJ said:

 but I think I may have to submit the fakes. 

That would be fraud, and would be a ToS violation. 

[geowrian 22,338]

First, you cannot submit knowingly false documents. That is fraud (or misrepresentation at best) and can get you in serious trouble. Your quoted legal definition is irrelevant - both fraud and misrepresentation as defined by immigration is different. Knowingly presenting documents with inaccurate data as being accurate is clearly not permitted. Don't try to fool yourself.

 

17 hours ago, BuckeyJ said:

I mean he put down that he was taking ss, taxes, medicare etc out of my check but he actually wasn't. Though he was paying my agreed salary "after taxes", no deductions were being made. He gave me checks and pay stubs and it is all deposited in my bank. Are you saying that if he paid me without taking out taxes and made pay stubs ONLY showing my pay without deductions that would be legitimate for the embassy?

 

What I really want to know is if there is any chance they will know if the deductions part of my pay stubs are not accurate, if there is any chance they could check with other agencies like the IRS, Social Security etc., because if not, there is really no way for them to know my pay stubs are "fake" or wrong on my deductions. He would verify my work and pay if called or visited, he has a license, obviously I would verify my own income and verify what I submit. The only people who would know they were fake are the agencies the deductions are supposed to go to.

 

I'm just really irritated that I was put in this position. Everything he showed me looked legit, and now our petition might be delayed unless I submit these pay stubs. I mean what would have happened if he never told me? I would have walked into the interview with these thinking they were completely accurate.

If he is required to withhold taxes and knowingly did not do so (and worse created false documents to cover that), then he's in for a load of trouble ahead. The IRS will catch up to him. It may even be criminal. And once found out or reported (it's unlikely he would do this with just 1 person), the IRS will probably require fixing the mistake...potentially costing you money and raising flags. Being complicit in it is worse.

 

No, no, no! Hoping they won't find out about is wrong on so many levels. You are risking not ever seeing your fiance in the US for a very long period of time.

 

Yeah, that does suck and puts you in a bad position. But that's not an excuse to make it worse.

[Jawaree 718]

This scenario is not smelling rosy. why would the boss do that, are you working under the table,

are you a contract worker expected to pay your own tax. Dont play with ORS you'll get burned

permanently...This would be too dumb to send fake stuff to the federal govt even if they look real

[florida racer 73 200]

Something does not seem right here, I think we are missing part of the story here. I know that there are companies out there with questionable morals, but for a company to falsify documents like this seems a little off. If your boss has a legal business why would he put himself in a questionable position. Falsifying documents to the government is bad business for everyone.

 

I own my business and my paperwork has to be meticulous, not only for the government but also for my own protection.

 

As far as submitting documents to the government that you know are false, well you are liable for the fraud the same as your boss and as others have said before, you will face more problems in the future. What troubles me is you are bringing up definitions of fraud and trying to justify presenting the false documents, this leads me to believe that you might have some knowledge that you were being paid under the table but needed the pay stubs for the K1, so he helped you out by giving you what you needed. I could be wrong but that is just my opinion.

 

My recommendation to you is this: do not send any documents that you have knowledge of being false or the possibility of being false. Also if your boss did in fact create fraudulent documents, either report him and get a new job or request that he take the proper witholding taxes out on you and ensure that he submit them as required. 

[BuckeyJ 0]

5 hours ago, kzielu said:

What income did you put in your tax return ? Did you ever got W-2 ? Was it forged as well ?

No my W-2 for 2016 was from another employer, one I have actually just gone back to because of this. The guy giving me bad stubs I only worked for in 2017, there are no w-2's or tax records for him.

[jan22 3,070]

DO NOT ever submit fake documents.  Plus, don't forget, you will need to submit documents again for the AOS....even if the embassy does not check them out, USCIS could easily do so during that process.

[BuckeyJ 0]

Just now, jan22 said:

DO NOT ever submit fake documents.  Plus, don't forget, you will need to submit documents again for the AOS....even if the embassy does not check them out, USCIS could easily do so during that process.

Ok thank you. I do not plan on submitting the pay stubs he gave me, I was just freaking out because it was my current job while going through the K-1, but I am starting a new job soon.

[BuckeyJ 0]

Just now, florida racer 73 said:

Something does not seem right here, I think we are missing part of the story here. I know that there are companies out there with questionable morals, but for a company to falsify documents like this seems a little off. If your boss has a legal business why would he put himself in a questionable position. Falsifying documents to the government is bad business for everyone.

 

I own my business and my paperwork has to be meticulous, not only for the government but also for my own protection.

 

As far as submitting documents to the government that you know are false, well you are liable for the fraud the same as your boss and as others have said before, you will face more problems in the future. What troubles me is you are bringing up definitions of fraud and trying to justify presenting the false documents, this leads me to believe that you might have some knowledge that you were being paid under the table but needed the pay stubs for the K1, so he helped you out by giving you what you needed. I could be wrong but that is just my opinion.

 

My recommendation to you is this: do not send any documents that you have knowledge of being false or the possibility of being false. Also if your boss did in fact create fraudulent documents, either report him and get a new job or request that he take the proper witholding taxes out on you and ensure that he submit them as required. 

Just now, florida racer 73 said:

Something does not seem right here, I think we are missing part of the story here. I know that there are companies out there with questionable morals, but for a company to falsify documents like this seems a little off. If your boss has a legal business why would he put himself in a questionable position. Falsifying documents to the government is bad business for everyone.

 

I own my business and my paperwork has to be meticulous, not only for the government but also for my own protection.

 

As far as submitting documents to the government that you know are false, well you are liable for the fraud the same as your boss and as others have said before, you will face more problems in the future. What troubles me is you are bringing up definitions of fraud and trying to justify presenting the false documents, this leads me to believe that you might have some knowledge that you were being paid under the table but needed the pay stubs for the K1, so he helped you out by giving you what you needed. I could be wrong but that is just my opinion.

 

My recommendation to you is this: do not send any documents that you have knowledge of being false or the possibility of being false. Also if your boss did in fact create fraudulent documents, either report him and get a new job or request that he take the proper witholding taxes out on you and ensure that he submit them as required. 

He did it because he knows I won't report him, he is a friend of mine. It is a very small company and I am his only employee (though I don't think I actually am). I don't know if you realize this, but people here in Texas really don't like government or taxes. It really isn't that uncommon for people to get paid under the table to avoid taxes, the only difference is he tried to give me pay stubs for immigration sake, and he had planned on not telling me for the sake of plausible deniability. Maybe I should report him but I am loyal to my friends even if they screw up and I just won't do it. I'm not going to use the stubs, I now have a new job set up very soon and I will just submit whatever pay stubs (real ones) that I can, and deal with any delays it may cause, and my friend will go on doing whatever he wants with his business, maybe get caught. I was just worried when I first found out about this, but I do not want to risk never seeing my Fiance.

 

I was only defining fraud because some people don't seem to know the actual definition of it. Many people try to scare others away from doing risky things instead of just giving realistic answers. I am not going to submit any of the pay stubs he gave me, even though as far as the Embassy is concerned it is not fraud because I WAS GETTING PAID AND CAN EASILY SUPPORT MY FIANCEE. I had no intent to harm anyone whether I submitted the stubs or not, because I have, and have had enough income to meet their requirements. The only one who would have been a victim of fraud is the IRS because they have not gotten the money owed in taxes. Technically if I submitted the stubs IT WOULD be showing ACCURATE INFORMATION (though not provable through taxes) of what I was being paid as far as my income and ability to support, which is what the Embassy is concerned about. But like I said, I'm not submitting them.

 

I appreciate your meticulous practices but not everyone is that way, and thanks for making up an alternate story to mine, but that is not what happened. I have met plenty of people and some bosses who have paid/been paid under the table. You can argue the morality all you want but the point is that it does happen, so I don't know why you are questioning my story. If I had knowledge about this from the beginning don't you think I would have brought it up earlier? or maybe checked this stuff out before I agreed to work for him? Really what you suggested makes much less sense.

[florida racer 73 200]

7 minutes ago, BuckeyJ said:

He did it because he knows I won't report him, he is a friend of mine. It is a very small company and I am his only employee (though I don't think I actually am). I don't know if you realize this, but people here in Texas really don't like government or taxes. It really isn't that uncommon for people to get paid under the table to avoid taxes, the only difference is he tried to give me pay stubs for immigration sake, and he had planned on not telling me for the sake of plausible deniability. Maybe I should report him but I am loyal to my friends even if they screw up and I just won't do it. I'm not going to use the stubs, I now have a new job set up very soon and I will just submit whatever pay stubs (real ones) that I can, and deal with any delays it may cause, and my friend will go on doing whatever he wants with his business, maybe get caught. I was just worried when I first found out about this, but I do not want to risk never seeing my Fiance.

 

I was only defining fraud because some people don't seem to know the actual definition of it. Many people try to scare others away from doing risky things instead of just giving realistic answers. I am not going to submit any of the pay stubs he gave me, even though as far as the Embassy is concerned it is not fraud because I WAS GETTING PAID AND CAN EASILY SUPPORT MY FIANCEE. I had no intent to harm anyone whether I submitted the stubs or not, because I have, and have had enough income to meet their requirements. The only one who would have been a victim of fraud is the IRS because they have not gotten the money owed in taxes. Technically if I submitted the stubs IT WOULD be showing ACCURATE INFORMATION (though not provable through taxes) of what I was being paid as far as my income and ability to support, which is what the Embassy is concerned about. But like I said, I'm not submitting them.

 

I appreciate your meticulous practices but not everyone is that way, and thanks for making up an alternate story to mine, but that is not what happened. I have met plenty of people and some bosses who have paid/been paid under the table. You can argue the morality all you want but the point is that it does happen, so I don't know why you are questioning my story. If I had knowledge about this from the beginning don't you think I would have brought it up earlier? or maybe checked this stuff out before I agreed to work for him? Really what you suggested makes much less sense.

I fail to see where I made up a story alternate to yours, but, it is all good. I am not arguing morality of a business, I am stating law. I am not about to get into a lengthy discussion about this. You came on here and asked for opinions and that is what you received.

 

Hope everything works out for you, good luck.

 

[geowrian 22,338]

19 minutes ago, BuckeyJ said:

He did it because he knows I won't report him, he is a friend of mine. It is a very small company and I am his only employee (though I don't think I actually am). I don't know if you realize this, but people here in Texas really don't like government or taxes. It really isn't that uncommon for people to get paid under the table to avoid taxes, the only difference is he tried to give me pay stubs for immigration sake, and he had planned on not telling me for the sake of plausible deniability. Maybe I should report him but I am loyal to my friends even if they screw up and I just won't do it. I'm not going to use the stubs, I now have a new job set up very soon and I will just submit whatever pay stubs (real ones) that I can, and deal with any delays it may cause, and my friend will go on doing whatever he wants with his business, maybe get caught. I was just worried when I first found out about this, but I do not want to risk never seeing my Fiance.

Okay, but not liking taxes isn't a justification for not paying them. Knowingly participating can really come back to hurt you. If/when your friend gets caught by the IRS, it will come back on you as you are the one who ultimately owes the income/SS/etc. taxes  that he never took out. That's an IRS issue, not an immigration one, but it is something you should be aware of.

 

Quote

I was only defining fraud because some people don't seem to know the actual definition of it. Many people try to scare others away from doing risky things instead of just giving realistic answers. I am not going to submit any of the pay stubs he gave me, even though as far as the Embassy is concerned it is not fraud because I WAS GETTING PAID AND CAN EASILY SUPPORT MY FIANCEE. I had no intent to harm anyone whether I submitted the stubs or not, because I have, and have had enough income to meet their requirements. The only one who would have been a victim of fraud is the IRS because they have not gotten the money owed in taxes. Technically if I submitted the stubs IT WOULD be showing ACCURATE INFORMATION (though not provable through taxes) of what I was being paid as far as my income and ability to support, which is what the Embassy is concerned about. But like I said, I'm not submitting them.

Nobody here has provided information to just scare you. They are realistic answers. It would be against the TOS here for anybody to suggest or condone an illegal practice (immigration, taxes, or any others). As far as the embassy is concerned, it is fraud (or at least misrepresentation) to submit documents as being truthful when you know they are not accurate. See USCIS' definition...all criteria is met here to qualify.

https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume8-PartJ-Chapter2.html#S-B

 

Intent to harm is not relevant.

 

That said, you're not using the stubs so I guess all of the above is irrelevant now. Best wishes.

Edited March 1, 2017 by geowrian

[pantonia 39]

First of all, like everybody said, don't present fake/forged documents, period. It's wrong, it's risky, it's fraud, and again, wrong. But it seems that you are still willing to maybe break the law, so I'll tell you why I don't think it would even work.

 

If you present the pay stubs at this part of the process, you will be officially claiming this as income and putting it in your fiance's file. Even if it worked in that instance, when the time comes to file for AOS, you'll present an IRS transcript that doesn't account for that illegal income, but USCIS will still have the documentation in their file from the K1 interview. Even if you believe that the embassy doesn't really check (I disagree), USCIS definitely will later on for the AOS process. They will see that there's a certain amount of income that you got paid that doesn't show in the tax returns.

 

For the K-/AOS process, I suggest not using that income at all. And for your personal side, do whatever you must do to fix the situation, either by reporting your employer, directly pushing him to pay back the taxes he owes for you, or ultimately pay them yourself to get yourself out of the issue, although you definitely shouldn't have to.

[David&Femke 91]

On 28-2-2017 at 6:50 AM, BuckeyJ said:

I mean he put down that he was taking ss, taxes, medicare etc out of my check but he actually wasn't. Though he was paying my agreed salary "after taxes", no deductions were being made. He gave me checks and pay stubs and it is all deposited in my bank. Are you saying that if he paid me without taking out taxes and made pay stubs ONLY showing my pay without deductions that would be legitimate for the embassy?

 

What I really want to know is if there is any chance they will know if the deductions part of my pay stubs are not accurate, if there is any chance they could check with other agencies like the IRS, Social Security etc., because if not, there is really no way for them to know my pay stubs are "fake" or wrong on my deductions. He would verify my work and pay if called or visited, he has a license, obviously I would verify my own income and verify what I submit. The only people who would know they were fake are the agencies the deductions are supposed to go to.

 

I'm just really irritated that I was put in this position. Everything he showed me looked legit, and now our petition might be delayed unless I submit these pay stubs. I mean what would have happened if he never told me? I would have walked into the interview with these thinking they were completely accurate.

If your boss dit not deduct taxes for you, that means you still need to pay those taxes, over what he payed you, or you will be commiting tax fraud. that is a bad idea with or withouth K1 visa in prosses.

Sounds to me that if your boss tolt you he was paying taxes for you when he hired you and then was not doing that, he has not payed you the amounth of salery that he owes you. ANd if you have a written contract you should go afte that as soon as you find another job. You can still get the rest of your salery then and pay that to the IRS yourself. Regardless report him as soon as you are shure of your new job. Becasue that is false pretences and most defenitly illlegal, if he does that with you he is probbaly taking advantage of other workers to.

Those kind of employers are the big problem for america where immegrant workers are getting the blame for.