Denial and AP

[mybackpages 0]

I think everyone gets so focused on the red flags spending a lot of energy trying to address those specific issues. the CO can not deny a petion based on red flags. Red flags are nothing more than common patterns

seen in fraud cases.

If your relationship has one or more of these characteristics- of course it makes it stand out and targeted for scrutiny.

Addressing red flags is simply not sufficient. The petiton to USCIS and the interview must show yourselves as a legitimate couple. Where there are pieces missing you must fill in the blanks. If we knew when we started a bi-national relationship what we know now after having gone through it, these types of denials wouldnt happen. Unfortunately most of us find this site only after we have begun the process.

This is not to say it is anyone's fault for not getting the visa-This is a tricky system to manuever. I do not know how anyone gets through the process without VJ.

[chiquita 0]

The problem is that they don't always follow their own guidelines. They're not supposed to send it back, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to. I think main reason for adressing them up front would be to give yourself a solid reason to rebut the consulate's decision immediately. I don't know how the post-return process goes, so hopefully chiquita or kiya can address how to proceed when you can prove that USCIS was aware of all of the red flags when they approved the petition.

the return process can be found in the pinned topic post #334................ 23rd page......

We keep telling people to address their red flags in the original petition so as to help prevent a consular return, since they can't technically return because of the red flags if the petition was approved with knowledge of the red flags. But what I'm thinking is, if they don't always abide by their own rule, then what's the point of addressing the red flags? Is there some point in the post-return process where the fact that you addressed the red flags in your original petition will help you? Otherwise, by addressing the red flags in the original petition, aren't we just making them aware of things that maybe it's best they don't know if they don't ask?

ETA: sorry i just reread that and it's really confusing, but no time to edit now!

yep Jenn, thats it...just

technically

they cant, but they do it anyway!

even so a couple still needs to address those red flags. we have no idea if it will or will not help. i would say that the applicant needs to bring up the issue of the red flags and address there right there at the time of the interview. i know this is gonna be a hard thing for him to do, but look, this last couple who were denied addressed thier red flags right up front in their petition and with the interview!

it appears (if they indeed are denied, we are not real sure at the moment) the CO didnt care!!!!

chi

[kerewin21 2]

They're also supposed to provide the applicant with a written, specific reason why the petition is being sent back, as well as offer the petitioner and applicant the opportunity to provide further information to refute those reasons.

Do they do that???

HECK NO!!!!

I HATE CASA!!!!!!

[chiquita 0]

According to the regs, the petition cannot be recommended to be revoked unless there is NEW evidence obtained during the interview that constitutes a finding of "substantial evidence of ineligibilty" that was unknown to DHS before the petition was submitted to the consulate. Those red flags are among, but not limited to, the list of "red flags" given in Marc Ellis' article, cited before.

That's exactly right, and part of the reason why it's advisable to address the red flags in the original petition. I don't know if brnidokiegurl did that, but if she did I would think it would help them in getting the return reversed more quickly.

she did

she also was prepared with them for the interview

chi

[Sofiyya 1,687]

it appears (if they indeed are denied, we are not real sure at the moment) the CO didnt care!!!!

That's why I started this thread! It was so hard to tell what happened, if he was denied or not. The wording is strange and ambiguous, at best, careless at worst. Brnid, Maggie and I mulled over it for a while before deciding we needed reinforcements to decipher what we had.

Thanks so much to all for your input! It's great to have this kind of support!

[chiquita 0]

They're also supposed to provide the applicant with a written, specific reason why the petition is being sent back, as well as offer the petitioner and applicant the opportunity to provide further information to refute those reasons.

Do they do that???

HECK NO!!!!

I HATE CASA!!!!!!

lol...you are sweet! ( I HATE CASA!!!!!!)

no they violate that regulation too. makes way to overturn the NOIR if only ofr that reason alone!

chi

[chiquita 0]

How does a person know if they are denied? It was stated earlier that the person 'will know' but this person was not told. Only after reading and re-reading the text (after finally finding it) did we determine that they were denied! Is it usually more clear than that? Is the only reason a case is denied is for suspected fraud?

unfortunatley it is not clear. ours was very unclear. it said it was going to be sent to ROME. lol, can you believe that?

the 221g should say if it is going for AP or bring returned and i belive it says it on most forms in the past year or so.

perhaps this CO neglected to give the proper notice. i am hoping and praying this couple is going for AP!!!!

chi

[maggieNomar 0]

I think everyone gets so focused on the red flags spending a lot of energy trying to address those specific issues. the CO can not deny a petion based on red flags. Red flags are nothing more than common patterns

seen in fraud cases.

This is not to say it is anyone's fault for not getting the visa-This is a tricky system to manuever. I do not know how anyone gets through the process without VJ.

This is so true. I had an atty, but I learned a lot from VJ, plus having the daily support was great too. I would not have known about how to prepare for the red flags had I not been here, nor would I have known about what papers were REALLY required at the interview. Casa seems to change what they want and not notify anyone, until word gets out. For example, at the time of our interview, I had read that someone had to have their celabataire certif, but had I not been on VJ we would not have known because it was not on the list of things to bring. Only the police report. Shortly after that, they started asking for a paper from the court, not just the police report, but again, people only found out at the interview. I could kiss the guys that started this site!

[brnidokiegurl 0]

Ahmed had all the forms, he even went back and made them redo theone where they just drew the line and the wanted word "non" his was the correct way, he had everything, his ownershipof store papers translated, everythng along those line, he tried to get her to look when she ask about my work, which he answered and for how long and i had my work letter also included. we had letters from frineds here at my work congrat. him on interview, talk about him coming and party they are to give him, he had letters from his friends and family there that knew us together. everything i coould possible give he had......and some that wasnt even required, i sent the one they had been marking out all notorized and everything, bank statements, bank letter, tax from about 4 years. phone bill she wouldnt look at, pictures she did look at and ask who was who which of course he could do. I dont know what more they could want...

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I hope Connie's reading this.

[brnidokiegurl 0]

she knows

[Sofiyya 1,687]

He got "the blonde". Is there more than one now?

[Caladan 19]

I believe she did, that's why we were so sure things would go well.

The problem is that they don't always follow their own guidelines. They're not supposed to send it back, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to. I think main reason for adressing them up front would be to give yourself a solid reason to rebut the consulate's decision immediately. I don't know how the post-return process goes, so hopefully chiquita or kiya can address how to proceed when you can prove that USCIS was aware of all of the red flags when they approved the petition.

That's exactly it. It's a lot easier to argue that "the consulate overlooked this piece of evidence X when it made the decision to return the position" than it is to argue "the consulate didn't have access to this piece of evidence X that would have changed their decision." In the first you're arguing that with the evidence as presented, they made the wrong decision. In the second, you're arguing that their decision was right based on the evidence available but incomplete with respect to the total body of evidence possible.

Best of luck and prayers for the parties involved for a swift, favorable resolution. And a huge thanks and note of praise: so much of VJ is dedicated to bringing about a successful interview that it's hard to find out what to do when things go wrong unless people publicly brainstorm and get help. It's brave to do that, and any one who comes after owes you a debt of gratitude.

[mybackpages 0]

Ahmed had all the forms, he even went back and made them redo theone where they just drew the line and the wanted word "non" his was the correct way, he had everything, his ownershipof store papers translated, everythng along those line, he tried to get her to look when she ask about my work, which he answered and for how long and i had my work letter also included. we had letters from frineds here at my work congrat. him on interview, talk about him coming and party they are to give him, he had letters from his friends and family there that knew us together. everything i coould possible give he had......and some that wasnt even required, i sent the one they had been marking out all notorized and everything, bank statements, bank letter, tax from about 4 years. phone bill she wouldnt look at, pictures she did look at and ask who was who which of course he could do. I dont know what more they could want...

Experiences like this is what me agree with Sharon. It appears that Casa looks at the original USCIS petition and makes a decision based on this evidence. I'm not convienced the age gap is as big as a red flag in Casa as quick decisions in the relationship. We had another couple not to long ago with a very good solid legitimate relationship and their petition was going to be returned. Their engagement came days after her fist trip to Morocco. There was very little strong evidence of the relationship before her first trip.

I have no idea if any of this applies to this case. I am just thinking out loud.

brnidokiegurl- I don't know what more they could have wanted. For sure the kinds of evidence we submit to prove the legitimacy of the relationship can all be faked. So it seems Casa turns their nose up at the evidence during the interview. No one takes the time to read it either. It appears they just look at the stack of it and dates. What a terrible way to judge fraud. So many good people with good intentions get caught in this very bad system.

Thank you for sharing as much as you can about this interview. Every piece of information is valuable not only for us to brainstorm what to do for you, but to provide help for those that come after you. I know wen you are in the middle of something like this it is not easy to come and bare your soul here. It is brave of you.

Edited April 4, 2007 by mybackpages

[maggieNomar 0]

The saddest part of everything you wrote is that no matter how much evidence you provide, if the person decides you are a fake, there is nothing you can do. You can't make them look at what you take, yet they tell you that you better bring it. I have heard of people taking pages and pages of evidence and pics, to no avail. Yet they get to keep our money and their jobs.