Denial and AP

[Sofiyya 1,687]

According to the regs, the petition cannot be recommended to be revoked unless there is NEW evidence obtained during the interview that constitutes a finding of "substantial evidence of ineligibilty" that was unknown to DHS before the petition was submitted to the consulate. Those red flags are among, but not limited to, the list of "red flags" given in Marc Ellis' article, cited before.

Edited April 4, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[peezey 0]

Why would they keep all of the certificates if they want to deny?

I would guess so the entire file is complete for the "re-review" at USCIS. They do return the whole packet to the agency.

that's not quite true.

they retain the petition at the consulate and most of the paperwork.

the evidence that the applicant supplies is usally returned to him.

they send a (dang, i will have to look up what the notice is called) a notice via diplomatic pouch to the NVC's fraud unit who then will send it on to the service center where it was processed.

chi

ah, I see. I just assumed the whole thing goes back.

[Jenn! 918]

According to the regs, the petition cannot be recommended to be revoked unless there is NEW evidence obtained during the interview that constitutes a finding of "substantial evidence of ineligibilty" that was unknown to DHS before the petition was submitted to the consulate. Those red flags are among, but not limited to, the list of "red flags" given in Marc Ellis' article, cited before.

That's exactly right, and part of the reason why it's advisable to address the red flags in the original petition. I don't know if brnidokiegurl did that, but if she did I would think it would help them in getting the return reversed more quickly.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I believe she did, that's why we were so sure things would go well.

[peezey 0]

According to the regs, the petition cannot be recommended to be revoked unless there is NEW evidence obtained during the interview that constitutes a finding of "substantial evidence of ineligibilty" that was unknown to DHS before the petition was submitted to the consulate. Those red flags are among, but not limited to, the list of "red flags" given in Marc Ellis' article, cited before.

I think, though, this is why it's very important the guys are very prepared for these interviews. Until the interview, no one has had to speak for the relationship, and he gets this one chance. So even if nothing has changed in fact since the consulate received the petition, the guy might bomb the interview (unbeknownst to him, of course) by not understanding questions, not answering properly to reflect the contents of the petition, etc. It's been said many times the COs ask tricky questions, circular questions that might be difficult for a non-native speaker to answer properly. Also, the sevice center isn't aware of specifics of each consulate. Something might not bear as much weight at the service center as it does in Casa, as Casa is quite aware of local cultural customs.

I hope this isn't taken as blaming the guys, that's not my intention. I think it's another lesson because time and again everything appears to be sewn up and then something crappy like a denial happens.

[limah 1]

Why would they keep all of the certificates if they want to deny?

I would guess so the entire file is complete for the "re-review" at USCIS. They do return the whole packet to the agency.

that's not quite true.

they retain the petition at the consulate and most of the paperwork.

the evidence that the applicant supplies is usally returned to him.

they send a (dang, i will have to look up what the notice is called) a notice via diplomatic pouch to the NVC's fraud unit who then will send it on to the service center where it was processed.

chi

You beat me to it, Chi. The things u mentioned take months for each step. About 3-4 months for the petition to actually get back to the us, and that is just the beginning. Abdel and I are at the phase now where the petitin is back at the service center, but its expired. So now they will review the I-130. It's just a long ridiculous process and we only interviewed in Nov. 06, so I guestimate Abdel will be here bout this time next year. I mean, with Houdini bein dead n all......

Abdel asked me if I was sorry that I married him because we have to go through this and that how he knows how hard it must be for me to have to do this and that without him. It amazes me that he isn't even thinking about himself, (or maybe he is but he's just not talking about how it affects him). Anyway, my answer was no, I'm just sorry u didnt pass the interview! Its something we can joke about cuz there ain't notta dam thang we can do about it! He was talking about how he has shaved and was lookin' and smellin' all good and that that the officer just wanted to keep him in Morocco for herself. Just to get turned around, and he said the worst part is that u dont have any privacy. I know its been talked about 1000000 times. I know when I went in there myself, on my first trip, I saw a few people get denied, too. I asked myself, is this where and how the interviews go? NO GOOD! It makes people nervous as hell and thats probably what "kills" a lot of people too. I was nervous just going there for initial paerwork to get the ball rollin'! SHEESH!

Limah

[Jenn! 918]

I believe she did, that's why we were so sure things would go well.

The problem is that they don't always follow their own guidelines. They're not supposed to send it back, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to. I think main reason for adressing them up front would be to give yourself a solid reason to rebut the consulate's decision immediately. I don't know how the post-return process goes, so hopefully chiquita or kiya can address how to proceed when you can prove that USCIS was aware of all of the red flags when they approved the petition.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It's difficult to come up against someone whose livlihood consists of trying to discern fraud. Cos are trained to look for signs and body language. The info that I send out to ppl with inteview dates goes step by step into how to conduct yourself and what not to do. I intend to expand on it as I get more info, but what I have, I've posted in the "Casablanca" thread. It's good for other consulates too.

[brnidokiegurl 0]

Hi yep its me and im working on it full strength, he was NOT given any kind of reason, questioning went fine etc. Everything, age, religion, length of vist were all addressed in the original application and it went straight thru no problems. His form has 1 X on the paragraph 221g no other notations and she gave no explanations, because i had told him NOT to leave until he ask what to tell me. But he said she was very rude. So until he can scan me the forms i dont know any more but am to call back one senator in 15 minutes and another is sending me a form out today also have a email into casa from when i first heard asking for more information. Thanks to everyone esp GEG and Maggie and now Chi who is helping go step by step... THe senators rep told me EVERYONE is to get a form explaining why (if) denied is so hes doesnt have a reason to go by or fix. and they did keep all his certificates...also this form had NO french words anywhere

[maggieNomar 0]

Why would they keep all of the certificates if they want to deny?

I would guess so the entire file is complete for the "re-review" at USCIS. They do return the whole packet to the agency.

that's not quite true.

they retain the petition at the consulate and most of the paperwork.

the evidence that the applicant supplies is usally returned to him.

they send a (dang, i will have to look up what the notice is called) a notice via diplomatic pouch to the NVC's fraud unit who then will send it on to the service center where it was processed.

chi

How does a person know if they are denied? It was stated earlier that the person 'will know' but this person was not told. Only after reading and re-reading the text (after finally finding it) did we determine that they were denied! Is it usually more clear than that? Is the only reason a case is denied is for suspected fraud?

[kerewin21 2]

I think, though, this is why it's very important the guys are very prepared for these interviews. Until the interview, no one has had to speak for the relationship, and he gets this one chance. So even if nothing has changed in fact since the consulate received the petition, the guy might bomb the interview (unbeknownst to him, of course) by not understanding questions, not answering properly to reflect the contents of the petition, etc.

I definitely agree with this...however it's important to remember that often the CO seems to have made up his/her mind before the interview even has started, asks very few questions, and refuses to accept information that is offered. Some of our SOs had ridiculously easy interviews, asking only a few questions, looking at a few pictures, and being approved (with of course the standard security checks). So while it's important to be prepared, we can't assume that someone whose application is returned bombed the interview.

[limah 1]

I believe she did, that's why we were so sure things would go well.

The problem is that they don't always follow their own guidelines. They're not supposed to send it back, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to. I think main reason for adressing them up front would be to give yourself a solid reason to rebut the consulate's decision immediately. I don't know how the post-return process goes, so hopefully chiquita or kiya can address how to proceed when you can prove that USCIS was aware of all of the red flags when they approved the petition.

the return process can be found in the pinned topic post #334................ 23rd page......

That is something else I was wondering about and I see it has also been addressed a few times, if a case was approved by the U.S., why send it back without any actual factuals of something being fraudulent. I am sure they have insulted a many couples with that one.... "I don't believe your relationship is legitimate." #######? OK, so this $200 a month on international phone calls is to who and for what, again, since u know? Oh and I guess u sit in on my intimate conversations with my husband and I in the wee hours of the night and decipher that the things we want in our future are not real, and the fact that you have yet again put our lives on hold and nobody is hurt by that or affected by that, or the fact that I will do whatever it takes to see my husband and not to mention the fact that my daughter has developed a relationship with him and fights me for the chair because she wants to talk to him first, and the fact that she was at the wedding, IN MOROCCO............ Fraud you say?

Oh, my bad! I think I got a lil carried away............ But Im getting mad all over again and I'm IN MOROCCO NOW! Having to leave again without him, I don't even want to think about it............... Fraud u say?! OH GOD!

Limah

[Jenn! 918]

The problem is that they don't always follow their own guidelines. They're not supposed to send it back, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to. I think main reason for adressing them up front would be to give yourself a solid reason to rebut the consulate's decision immediately. I don't know how the post-return process goes, so hopefully chiquita or kiya can address how to proceed when you can prove that USCIS was aware of all of the red flags when they approved the petition.

the return process can be found in the pinned topic post #334................ 23rd page......

We keep telling people to address their red flags in the original petition so as to help prevent a consular return, since they can't technically return because of the red flags if the petition was approved with knowledge of the red flags. But what I'm thinking is, if they don't always abide by their own rule, then what's the point of addressing the red flags? Is there some point in the post-return process where the fact that you addressed the red flags in your original petition will help you? Otherwise, by addressing the red flags in the original petition, aren't we just making them aware of things that maybe it's best they don't know if they don't ask?

ETA: sorry i just reread that and it's really confusing, but no time to edit now!

Edited April 4, 2007 by jenn3539

[maggieNomar 0]

Hi yep its me and im working on it full strength, he was NOT given any kind of reason, questioning went fine etc. Everything, age, religion, length of vist were all addressed in the original application and it went straight thru no problems. His form has 1 X on the paragraph 221g no other notations and she gave no explanations, because i had told him NOT to leave until he ask what to tell me. But he said she was very rude. So until he can scan me the forms i dont know any more but am to call back one senator in 15 minutes and another is sending me a form out today also have a email into casa from when i first heard asking for more information. Thanks to everyone esp GEG and Maggie and now Chi who is helping go step by step... THe senators rep told me EVERYONE is to get a form explaining why (if) denied is so hes doesnt have a reason to go by or fix. and they did keep all his certificates...also this form had NO french words anywhere

I'm glad you decided to show up here Brnid. I'm sure people will be helpful as they think of things you can do. I hope your senator is able to help you, since they seem to think (based on their words) that something was not done correctly here. Like you said, you can't fix it if you don't know what's broke!

[chiquita 0]

According to the regs, the petition cannot be recommended to be revoked unless there is NEW evidence obtained during the interview that constitutes a finding of "substantial evidence of ineligibilty" that was unknown to DHS before the petition was submitted to the consulate. Those red flags are among, but not limited to, the list of "red flags" given in Marc Ellis' article, cited before.

I am so sorry yo report that this just is not true. the CO can and does use prior known evidence that was KNOWN by USCIS (and approved) as reasons for revocation. as it happened to us and others. i addressed this in our NOIR. if this were not a public forum i would post the paper trail i kept and what regs the consulate violated in returning our case.

as it has been suggested many times, it appears that a case is decided by the CO long before the interview actually takes place. if there are any and i mean any red flags the consulate can return the case requesting a revocation based on their 'impression' alone. this of course is against department policy but they get away with it all the time. and who is stopping this from happeneing??? no one! this is such an outrage to say the least!

believe me i appreciate the work our government employees do to protect us. i am the first to get in line and applaud their efforts! what i dont appreciate is abuse of their job! if there is a concrete reason to request a revocation in my case, by all means do so! but to return my case because a CO 'feels' there is no way we have a valid relationship cuz i am older is pure bunk!!!! thats all i can say about that subject cuz it irritates the $hit out of me!!

as an FYI, our case was denied and returned to USCIS 'due to the validity of the relationship' because the CO THOUGHT my husband had no proof of our relationship. DH had it all in his briefcase, (DH was told the CO would ask him for the proof when he wanted to see it) the CO was to stupid to even ask him if he had any proof. nope, he just ASSUMED (a-hole) husband had none when in fact he had about 4 1/2 pounds worth of paper. the co also lied and told my husband he 'needed more info from the NVC'. so husband thought all was ok. nope nope, that was not to be either.

ok done with rant.

sorry

chi