Regional Forums

[MichelleandCraig 1]

I don't totally agree with your opinion on this one either, Becca...I think the regional forums are really valuable for helping each other out with country-specific issues. On the other hand, I think you made your case very eloquently and it made a LOT of sense...I really do agree with you on the sense of community/compassion/caring here...it IS sorely lacking and I so wish things were different. I know I SO KNOW I don't have to share each and every detail of my personal relationship...I made a big mistake on this board with that, and I'm very aware of that now. On the other hand, there have been some issues over time that I would have liked to discuss with others...in not QUITE as personal of terms as I did before! but I didn't (and don't)feel comfortable enough on here to do that anymore. It's a sad thing, I think. People are way to quick to jump in and be judgemental of someone and his/her situation. (and I'm sure I've been guilty of it too, so I don't mean "everyone else") I mean, at one point people were even questioning if Craig was still here in the U.S. I know it was a strange situation and all but, I have to admit, that still stings a little bit. WHY would I make up something like that you know??? I would have been pretty bored! Ah....past is past anyway and don't mean to dredge up all that again....as I said, I made plenty of my own mistakes during that time. (being anything short of absolutely truthful was never one of them though!) long story short, I totally agree with that aspect...I would much prefer the "we're all in this together" sort of mentality on the board and I really wish there was a concrete way to bring that all about.... *sigh* M.

Edited April 5, 2007 by MichelleandCraig

[Andy 2]

Nothing in the titles I suggested was jargon - it was all appropriate terminology, which should be encouraged. Jargon should be discouraged.

The problem is that until a user knows what an I-129F is, or a K-1 etc, it IS jargon. Yes, also legitimate terminology, but meaningless to people who don't yet know it and thus obstructive to their ability to find the materials they need or the right places to find information or post. If we complain (as we often do) that users don't read before posting questions, some thought at least has to be given to the way we present that information and what language we use.

There are, for example, similar forums where titles are such as 'Family-based immigration', 'Employment based immigration', 'Non-Immigant visas for visitors and business'.... and inside each, there are then sub areas such that inside the family based area there are 'K-1 visas for fiance(e)s', 'K-3 and IR-1/CR-1 Visas for Spouses', 'Adjustment of Status after entry'.... well you get the idea. What this does is lead the user into the appropriate area, then begin to introduce the right terminology in the context of explanation as to purpose, while also allowing targeted materials to be introduced in a way that the user can see the context.

That type of structure allows for both novice and expert user to work within the site without any predefined notions of what they should or shouldn't already know.

[Andy 2]

Yes other topics may end up there but unless we create a million subforums then in some cases some threads will never perfectly fit into a single category.

While it's true that there are always going to be a few threads that don't really have an appropriate place, I think if the starting point is that immigration questions belong in locations where immigration is discussed and non-immigration discussions take place elsewhere, with the two being segregated for the benefit of those participating in one or the other, it does at least help focus the site and get users to the places they need to be in order to get the information they need, asks the questions they need to ask or find the posts they want.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to characterize the notion as 'creating a million sub-forums', which implies it is both unreasonable and impractical, and it also suggests that it's OK to have regional discussions which are not focused on immigration issues but isn't OK to have such a place dedicated to that task. For an immigration help site, that's an odd thought!

If anything the Regional discussions should go and be replaced by sub topics in the Embassy/Consulate area if we can't have both, since this is, after all, primarily intended to be a place to discuss immigration, and by and large the structure and organization of the site should be somewhat biased towards ensuring that function is performed best.

[Yodrak 7]

Andy,

As I wrote it that post, my observation is that virtually all newbies to VJ have heard those basic terms when the come to VJ. They may not have the meanings and implications straight, but they have seen the terms. Most people get to VJ by searching the internet for family-based immigration information, and it's hard to not come across those terms in that searching process.

There are very few newbie posts to VJ that simply ask, 'I want to bring my [fiance(e)][spouse] to the USA, where do I start?' Some, but not many. And even for them, let's get them started in the right direction by ourselves using proper terminology and not jargon.

Yodrak

Nothing in the titles I suggested was jargon - it was all appropriate terminology, which should be encouraged. Jargon should be discouraged.

The problem is that until a user knows what an I-129F is, or a K-1 etc, it IS jargon. Yes, also legitimate terminology, but meaningless to people who don't yet know it and thus obstructive to their ability to find the materials they need or the right places to find information or post. If we complain (as we often do) that users don't read before posting questions, some thought at least has to be given to the way we present that information and what language we use.......

[Andy 2]

As I wrote it that post, my observation is that virtually all newbies to VJ have heard those basic terms when the come to VJ.

Perhaps I failed to express the point as I intended, because my concern isn't that those terms aren't 'known' in the general sense, so much as that until users generally begin to get information back from the site, they may have a rather loose 'understanding' of what they mean. That loose understanding can lead to problems, not just in their use of the site but also in their specific cases, and it's not hard to resolve with the right organization and wording.

And in the broader sense again, it seems to me a poor proposition to make any assumptions about what our users know or don't when they arrive here. The more we assume, the more we complain when they fail to meet our expectations, and the harder it is to keep the site focussed.

[rebeccajo 14]

Why is it I get this mental image of Andy and Yodrak sitting in a bookstore coffee shop, slurping strong black coffee, arms propped up on stacks of comic books, self help books and mystery novels, peering into each others faces having this scholarly debate?

[LaL 418]

Yes other topics may end up there but unless we create a million subforums then in some cases some threads will never perfectly fit into a single category.

While it's true that there are always going to be a few threads that don't really have an appropriate place, I think if the starting point is that immigration questions belong in locations where immigration is discussed and non-immigration discussions take place elsewhere, with the two being segregated for the benefit of those participating in one or the other, it does at least help focus the site and get users to the places they need to be in order to get the information they need, asks the questions they need to ask or find the posts they want.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to characterize the notion as 'creating a million sub-forums', which implies it is both unreasonable and impractical, and it also suggests that it's OK to have regional discussions which are not focused on immigration issues but isn't OK to have such a place dedicated to that task. For an immigration help site, that's an odd thought!

If anything the Regional discussions should go and be replaced by sub topics in the Embassy/Consulate area if we can't have both, since this is, after all, primarily intended to be a place to discuss immigration, and by and large the structure and organization of the site should be somewhat biased towards ensuring that function is performed best.

I am kinda on this page after giving it all some thought (and talking out loud on this thread). It would make logical sense since immigration related chatter is discussed in these forums, and this IS an immigration site to re-locate the subfora under the embassy forum. The concern for newer members missing important locale-specific information is way diminished. I just couldn't see dumping all of that into one sole forum. I guess I just thought the site is too big for that at this point.

the regional heated discussions may be squelched pretty easily by doing this since they may be able to be moved to off topic.

lol @ becca

[mybackpages 0]

I am kinda on this page after giving it all some thought (and talking out loud on this thread). It would make logical sense since immigration related chatter is discussed in these forums, and this IS an immigration site to re-locate the subfora under the embassy forum. The concern for newer members missing important locale-specific information is way diminished. I just couldn't see dumping all of that into one sole forum. I guess I just thought the site is too big for that at this point.

the regional heated discussions may be squelched pretty easily by doing this since they may be able to be moved to off topic.

lol @ becca

There are a lot of us who are on the site regularly and always use "view new posts". I know when I do this sometimes I find newbies posting a consulate specific questions inthe general consulate area (which is the right place to post) and will show them a link to the region foums posts for more information. Often they have not discovered the regional forums.

For those of us going through Casablanca, the most detailed info is in the regional forum and it can get lost in the daily chatter there. I hate to think though that some newbie has falling through the cracks because we miss their new post and they never find the regional forum.

ETA: I wonder how much of this placement of information in the region threads about immigration issues will be offset by the new search tools. Maybe it will be easier to find consulate related threads no matter which forum they are in?

Edited April 5, 2007 by mybackpages

[Yodrak 7]

Andy,

VJ also has titles for groupings of forums, so yes I get the idea. The forum titles that I am suggesting are at the 2nd level, so they would be preceded by the group title to direct the user to the area of interest.

Perhaps if the group titles were revised somewhat to more clearly direct the user it would help to resolve your concerns?

Yodrak

Perhaps I failed to express the point as I intended, because my concern isn't that those terms aren't 'known' in the general sense, so much as that until users generally begin to get information back from the site, they may have a rather loose 'understanding' of what they mean. That loose understanding can lead to problems, not just in their use of the site but also in their specific cases, and it's not hard to resolve with the right organization and wording.

.....

.....

There are, for example, similar forums where titles are such as 'Family-based immigration', 'Employment based immigration', 'Non-Immigant visas for visitors and business'.... and inside each, there are then sub areas such that inside the family based area there are 'K-1 visas for fiance(e)s', 'K-3 and IR-1/CR-1 Visas for Spouses', 'Adjustment of Status after entry'.... well you get the idea. What this does is lead the user into the appropriate area, then begin to introduce the right terminology in the context of explanation as to purpose, while also allowing targeted materials to be introduced in a way that the user can see the context.

That type of structure allows for both novice and expert user to work within the site without any predefined notions of what they should or shouldn't already know.

rebeccajo,

I don't know about Andy, but you'll find me at the pub not the coffee shop.

Yodrak

Why is it I get this mental image of Andy and Yodrak sitting in a bookstore coffee shop, slurping strong black coffee, arms propped up on stacks of comic books, self help books and mystery novels, peering into each others faces having this scholarly debate?

[Andy 2]

Perhaps if the group titles were revised somewhat to more clearly direct the user it would help to resolve your concerns?

I think that would help, certainly, though I also wonder if there isn't value to questioning the overall structure to some degree.

Oh, and yes, you're right, the pub it is!

[Yodrak 7]

Andy,

Yes, there is value to questioning the overall structure. I've thought about it myself in the past, but always hit a roadblock somewhere because of things that overlap or otherwise don't categorize neatly into one well-defined place. So presently my mind is in the mode of clarifying the existing structure in the way that structure is presently being used, rather than making bigger changes.

The experience USCIS web site re-structuring also gives me pause. Improvement was needed, but I don't think the changes they made accomplished improvement!

Yodrak

Perhaps if the group titles were revised somewhat to more clearly direct the user it would help to resolve your concerns?

I think that would help, certainly, though I also wonder if there isn't value to questioning the overall structure to some degree.

.....

[meauxna 15]

I'm going to stand by my original opinion that too much immigration chatter in the Regional Forums is bad for the overall health of VJ.

I agree that some of the consulate issues in MENA can unnecessarily 'scare' other readers. On the other hand, what's the harm in seeing how other folks have more difficult issues on their plate than the reader might?

A little sympathy for each other in this community is something sorely lacking these days. I've only deeply studied the practices of the UK consulate, because that's the one we processed through, but perhaps BECAUSE I joined VJ when there were no Regional Forums, I have an appreciation for the differences of the other consulates. I'm also not as likely to go off half-cocked and give advice to petitioners for other consulates because I know there are others out there with more knowledge than me.

If it were up to me, I would dissolve the Regional Forums entirely. I would move them to Sub-Forums of the Consulate and Embassy forum. I really feel that's the only place they have any purpose as far as an immigration website is concerned.

In the General Discussions area, a forum could then be created with some sort of title like "The World According to Visajourney". Here everybody could gather to discuss cultural differences, travel, etc. EVERYBODY. Not divided by sections of the globe, but all together. In my opinion, it would be more fun and more interesting, and would bring back the 'global friendships' once formed so easily here.

The more I read this post, the more I like it.

I think MORE intermingling is better than less. What about some of the country-specific threads? Couldn't you keep that going as a place to hash out Consulate-specifics?

[Andy 2]

Yes, there is value to questioning the overall structure. I've thought about it myself in the past, but always hit a roadblock somewhere because of things that overlap or otherwise don't categorize neatly into one well-defined place. So presently my mind is in the mode of clarifying the existing structure in the way that structure is presently being used, rather than making bigger changes.

The experience USCIS web site re-structuring also gives me pause. Improvement was needed, but I don't think the changes they made accomplished improvement!

Oh dear, yes the USCIS site restructure was a bad plan badly implemented for the worst of reasons - rather typical of government agencies in other words, but it has certainly rendered a less usable result... and with no great fond memories of the previous version, that takes some doing!

I think for us the problem is rather more simple though, and the only real complexity is that we have tended to broaden out the discussion areas rather than think about how a better result might have been achieved. To be honest, that was our fault in the very early days, because we didn't think there would be the kind of need for subdivisions of procedure so we added extra bits on the edges instead of maybe downwards. Once we started out in that direction it them became easier to carry on than think differently.

It's neatly seen in this very issue, where a Regional discussion area was thought a nice idea so people from different parts of the world could chat about their areas, talk to others about travel and tourism, cultural differences etc. All good. Yet in reality it's not how it ends up being used, because it's become a place for talk about consulates and procedures, yet is all the way over in 'General' alongside Off Topic and Polls, where no-one unfamiliar with what's being said there would think to look for consulate details. As a result, lots of stuff gets moved to the Embassy/Consulate area, requiring a higher degree of monitoring and attention, and other stuff gets left where it risks not being seen by those who might benefit. So what do we do about it? I'm going to guess nothing. People who use it for that don't see a problem, and people who don't don't see what the fuss is about. Who would guess that the best place for a post about an embassy when approaching visa processing is in General>Regional rather than Immigration>Embassy?!

Organization and structure isn't about a personal opinion though, it's about what is or isn't consistent with the objectives and rational enough that it requires the least thought in order to use the resource to best effect. Bad structure helps encourage the training of members into bad practice and then the learning of the same by those who subsequently join and see the patterns of use. Good structure helps the site deliver on it's objectives to the best effect, and in doing so helps positive climate and good practice amongst the user base.

I don't have a monopoly on common sense so I accept that what I'm saying is only one way to look at it - but if we agree that we do need a place for people to talk about specific things like certain embassies, then there's a 'right' place and a 'wrong' place. The right place serves the entire community, the wrong place serves a proportion of it. One thing is for sure though, we shouldn't stop pondering whether we are organized to best effect and implementing changes if we aren't, even if it does require something like the duplication of the current Regional topic areas into sub-area off Embassy/Consulate. It's not a complication to add something where it's needed.

[rebeccajo 14]

It's neatly seen in this very issue, where a Regional discussion area was thought a nice idea so people from different parts of the world could chat about their areas, talk to others about travel and tourism, cultural differences etc. All good. Yet in reality it's not how it ends up being used, because it's become a place for talk about consulates and procedures, yet is all the way over in 'General' alongside Off Topic and Polls, where no-one unfamiliar with what's being said there would think to look for consulate details. As a result, lots of stuff gets moved to the Embassy/Consulate area, requiring a higher degree of monitoring and attention, and other stuff gets left where it risks not being seen by those who might benefit. So what do we do about it? I'm going to guess nothing. People who use it for that don't see a problem, and people who don't don't see what the fuss is about. Who would guess that the best place for a post about an embassy when approaching visa processing is in General>Regional rather than Immigration>Embassy?!

Well fiddlesticks.

Now that would stink.

[Fandango 1,439]

Personally, seeing the sheer amt of moved threads even in just the UK regional forum is dizzying and a little depressing.

At the end of the day...I don't think people here are dumbazzes. I feel that there's a reason it was posted in the forum it was. I think if they post in a regional forum they're doing so because of the familiarity and camaraderie with couples going thru the same consulate, not out of ignorance. And that's not such a bad thing. Maybe they didn't want the thread elsewhere

E knows how I feel about all these new vj changes. I think all this new hoo ha is much ado over nothing...but hey, if it makes people feel needed, then the rest of us have no choice.

Oh, hi and bye everyone....been so fricken busy haven't had time to post lately.

Edited April 5, 2007 by LisaD