LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR RED FLAGS

[chaishai 1]

I think it has everything to do with the fact that he's not Moroccan.

I think you are absolutely correct. Hicham and I have both thought this many times.

When we began the whole process in the States, before he ever got stuck in Maroc, the local office couldn't figure out how to code his file because there was no code set up for "Palestinian". He's actually considered "stateless" but not a refugee. Even though he was born in Morocco, he has to have a Palestinian passport. So very freak'in complicated!!!!

Does your formula factor in variables of that nature????

Sorry allousa, I didn't mean to ignore your question here. Actually, I was kidding about really developing a formula. While it would be sooooooo useful, unfortunately, we don't have nearly enough data to come up with anything at all credible. If that data were available, then absolutely, the formula should factor in variables such as those affecting your case, since I think it's pretty clear that Hicham's statelessness is slowing down your process.

I knew you were kidding. I was just wondering if you could add in the "dumb" factor?

I was dumbfounded when we were at our local CIS office and they officers were scratching their heads like they didn't know how to process his case. He even went through filing for Asylum and the court recognized that he was stateless but decided sorry, you can't stay here.

Since I've been here, I think I've only seen two other people with SOs from Palestine, one being WOM. I would be curious to know if SOs coming out of "conflict" areas get the big 'ole nasty red flag?

We had a relatively smooth process (so far... knock on wood) -- much easier than many. I don't know that being Palestinian in itself is necessarily a problem.

More to add but back with that later.......

I have a few palestinian friends that came over without too much of a hassle. Most israelis I know (also considered conflict area?) have very little hassle, ourselves included.

Why would Israelis have any flags at all given their great relationship with the US? Its like the 51st state. Sure wouldnt have too much problem figuring out who was "bad" and "good ". 1800 Mossad and 25 minutes later you have the whole life story of a person . LOL LOL LOL. I sure would not worry if I was Israeli about getting a visa.

Wow sorry you are so bitter! 1800 Mossad must not have worked in our case because the whole process still took us a year and a half. If israel were the 51st state he should be able to come with his drivers license, no? Fortunately we didnt have any red flags whatsoever so that reduced the hassle I guess.

[allousa 1]

Yes, he filed for asylum but was denied and appealed. We met and got married while the appeal was pending and his student visa ran out. Our I-130 was approved, but his asylum appeal had to be dismissed before they would adjust status. Our attorney had filed the paperwork to dismiss, but the Atlanta office where his asylum case had been handled had trouble finding the file. It was during this time that Hicham went to be with his mom when she was very sick. When he tried to come back, he was denied entry because his case was pending. He was considered as voluntarily deporting himself. Our attorney NEVER told us this could happen. When I hired a new attorney, I found out that the previous attorney had not filed the correct documents with the correct CIS offices. He quickly corrected all of this. BUT, Hicham's file sat at our local CIS office for 9 months after 2 letters from our attorney had been sent requesting that it be sent to NVC. It wasn't until our Congress Rep got involved that the file was finally sent. I even had two appointments with the CIS office and they told me the file had been sent. Our congress rep said we could file a complaint because what they did was not right, but suggested that we wait until our process was complete as not to "rock the boat".

Once Hicham's case got to Casa, all of the issues with the previous asylum case had been resolved. Even with all of the evidence Hicham presented at his first interview, he was accused of not being the person represented in the file. The CO even had him sign his name 3 times because she didn't believe him. That was 2/16/06. Our case went into AP until 4/16/07.

I do agree with you that the onset of his case, the asylum issues would have posed a problem. But the evidence that we presented for his 2/16 interview....was STRONG. I had letters from my boss (who had met Hicham), notarized affidavits from our friends and families. PICTURES, PICTURES AND MORE PICTURES of us together with each other's families. Proof of home ownership, bank accounts, etc.

If it's one thing that I've learned through this process is that expected the unexpected and know that nothing makes sense. Just my opinion. I sure wouldn't wish this process on anyone!

OK thanks for the specifics. So the waiver is to lift the ban on him re-entering the U.S. after "voluntarily deporting" himself ?

I really don't think his being Palestinian has anything to do with the slowness of the processing of the case -- I think there is a complicated pile of paperwork in that file, and that has been slowing you down from the beginning. It seems that at the first interview in Casa, the CO seemed to have a problem with believing him. But you say the 2nd interview went really well. So now the holdup is on the waiver in Rome ? How long are waivers taking (on the average) ? (Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to get clear on everything.)

-MK

Yes. The waiver is to lift the ban. Per our new attorney, once he re-enters, he won't even have to file for AOS. He says we are done.

The holdup IS in Rome. They say it's a 90-180 day process and this is where the final decision is made. Casa sent the file June 14th, but it wasn't logged in to Rome until August 1st. I've read so many conflicting reports that they are currently only processing May applications which could mean that we might not hear something until February of next year. BUT, if they are sticking to the 90-180 day process time, then we could have a decision anytime from November to January. Some have been processed within a matter of weeks and some months. I've read Rome has a slightly tough rep when it comes to approving waivers. You really have to prove hardship for them to grant approval. The have a site that updates the case status every two weeks, so at least we have that. I swear the when I see his case "Approved", Inshallah, I will drop to my knees and thank God! We will have been going through this waiver process for 4 years this Thanksgiving.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I think it has everything to do with the fact that he's not Moroccan.

I think you are absolutely correct. Hicham and I have both thought this many times.

When we began the whole process in the States, before he ever got stuck in Maroc, the local office couldn't figure out how to code his file because there was no code set up for "Palestinian". He's actually considered "stateless" but not a refugee. Even though he was born in Morocco, he has to have a Palestinian passport. So very freak'in complicated!!!!

Does your formula factor in variables of that nature????

Sorry allousa, I didn't mean to ignore your question here. Actually, I was kidding about really developing a formula. While it would be sooooooo useful, unfortunately, we don't have nearly enough data to come up with anything at all credible. If that data were available, then absolutely, the formula should factor in variables such as those affecting your case, since I think it's pretty clear that Hicham's statelessness is slowing down your process.

I knew you were kidding. I was just wondering if you could add in the "dumb" factor?

I was dumbfounded when we were at our local CIS office and they officers were scratching their heads like they didn't know how to process his case. He even went through filing for Asylum and the court recognized that he was stateless but decided sorry, you can't stay here.

Since I've been here, I think I've only seen two other people with SOs from Palestine, one being WOM. I would be curious to know if SOs coming out of "conflict" areas get the big 'ole nasty red flag?

We had a relatively smooth process (so far... knock on wood) -- much easier than many. I don't know that being Palestinian in itself is necessarily a problem.

More to add but back with that later.......

I have a few palestinian friends that came over without too much of a hassle. Most israelis I know (also considered conflict area?) have very little hassle, ourselves included.

Why would Israelis have any flags at all given their great relationship with the US? Its like the 51st state. Sure wouldnt have too much problem figuring out who was "bad" and "good ". 1800 Mossad and 25 minutes later you have the whole life story of a person . LOL LOL LOL. I sure would not worry if I was Israeli about getting a visa.

Wow sorry you are so bitter! 1800 Mossad must not have worked in our case because the whole process still took us a year and a half. If israel were the 51st state he should be able to come with his drivers license, no? Fortunately we didnt have any red flags whatsoever so that reduced the hassle I guess.

you have no timeline and you said your case was without hassels.. a year and half seems like a long time for no hassles

[chaishai 1]

I think it has everything to do with the fact that he's not Moroccan.

I think you are absolutely correct. Hicham and I have both thought this many times.

When we began the whole process in the States, before he ever got stuck in Maroc, the local office couldn't figure out how to code his file because there was no code set up for "Palestinian". He's actually considered "stateless" but not a refugee. Even though he was born in Morocco, he has to have a Palestinian passport. So very freak'in complicated!!!!

Does your formula factor in variables of that nature????

Sorry allousa, I didn't mean to ignore your question here. Actually, I was kidding about really developing a formula. While it would be sooooooo useful, unfortunately, we don't have nearly enough data to come up with anything at all credible. If that data were available, then absolutely, the formula should factor in variables such as those affecting your case, since I think it's pretty clear that Hicham's statelessness is slowing down your process.

I knew you were kidding. I was just wondering if you could add in the "dumb" factor?

I was dumbfounded when we were at our local CIS office and they officers were scratching their heads like they didn't know how to process his case. He even went through filing for Asylum and the court recognized that he was stateless but decided sorry, you can't stay here.

Since I've been here, I think I've only seen two other people with SOs from Palestine, one being WOM. I would be curious to know if SOs coming out of "conflict" areas get the big 'ole nasty red flag?

We had a relatively smooth process (so far... knock on wood) -- much easier than many. I don't know that being Palestinian in itself is necessarily a problem.

More to add but back with that later.......

I have a few palestinian friends that came over without too much of a hassle. Most israelis I know (also considered conflict area?) have very little hassle, ourselves included.

Why would Israelis have any flags at all given their great relationship with the US? Its like the 51st state. Sure wouldnt have too much problem figuring out who was "bad" and "good ". 1800 Mossad and 25 minutes later you have the whole life story of a person . LOL LOL LOL. I sure would not worry if I was Israeli about getting a visa.

Wow sorry you are so bitter! 1800 Mossad must not have worked in our case because the whole process still took us a year and a half. If israel were the 51st state he should be able to come with his drivers license, no? Fortunately we didnt have any red flags whatsoever so that reduced the hassle I guess.

you have no timeline and you said your case was without hassels.. a year and half seems like a long time for no hassles

Depends on your definition of hassle, I guess.

[Badrs Love 0]

Oh, I'm in a similar position. Badr and I haven't started the visa process yet. But my family has tried everything to get me to cut off contact with him. They tried scare tactics, they've tired taking my daughter away from me and they even tried contacting my ex-husband to have him take my daughter away. I am an adult and I make the decisions now for my daughter and I. I choose to be with a man that loves me completely and would give his life for me. He's much more of a man than the men I've met in the US. Sorry, hope I didn't offend any men. But you have to follow your heart sometimes and block out the negativity. Hopefully our families will come around when they see how happy our SO's make us.

PS. My parents told my sister to marry her Jordanian boyfriend when they found out that his student visa was expiring. So they got married and he got his Master's. So my family are also hypocrites. They don't see anything wrong with telling her to marry a man but when I find one on my own, it's just not right. Go figure.

[sarah and hicham 3]

Oh, I'm in a similar position. Badr and I haven't started the visa process yet. But my family has tried everything to get me to cut off contact with him. They tried scare tactics, they've tired taking my daughter away from me and they even tried contacting my ex-husband to have him take my daughter away. I am an adult and I make the decisions now for my daughter and I. I choose to be with a man that loves me completely and would give his life for me. He's much more of a man than the men I've met in the US. Sorry, hope I didn't offend any men. But you have to follow your heart sometimes and block out the negativity. Hopefully our families will come around when they see how happy our SO's make us.

PS. My parents told my sister to marry her Jordanian boyfriend when they found out that his student visa was expiring. So they got married and he got his Master's. So my family are also hypocrites. They don't see anything wrong with telling her to marry a man but when I find one on my own, it's just not right. Go figure.

That girl that died in Morocco last year- was that your now fiance's fiancee or wife?

[chaishai 1]

Oh, I'm in a similar position. Badr and I haven't started the visa process yet. But my family has tried everything to get me to cut off contact with him. They tried scare tactics, they've tired taking my daughter away from me and they even tried contacting my ex-husband to have him take my daughter away. I am an adult and I make the decisions now for my daughter and I. I choose to be with a man that loves me completely and would give his life for me. He's much more of a man than the men I've met in the US. Sorry, hope I didn't offend any men. But you have to follow your heart sometimes and block out the negativity. Hopefully our families will come around when they see how happy our SO's make us.

PS. My parents told my sister to marry her Jordanian boyfriend when they found out that his student visa was expiring. So they got married and he got his Master's. So my family are also hypocrites. They don't see anything wrong with telling her to marry a man but when I find one on my own, it's just not right. Go figure.

That girl that died in Morocco last year- was that your now fiance's fiancee or wife?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Oh, I'm in a similar position. Badr and I haven't started the visa process yet. But my family has tried everything to get me to cut off contact with him. They tried scare tactics, they've tired taking my daughter away from me and they even tried contacting my ex-husband to have him take my daughter away. I am an adult and I make the decisions now for my daughter and I. I choose to be with a man that loves me completely and would give his life for me. He's much more of a man than the men I've met in the US. Sorry, hope I didn't offend any men. But you have to follow your heart sometimes and block out the negativity. Hopefully our families will come around when they see how happy our SO's make us.

PS. My parents told my sister to marry her Jordanian boyfriend when they found out that his student visa was expiring. So they got married and he got his Master's. So my family are also hypocrites. They don't see anything wrong with telling her to marry a man but when I find one on my own, it's just not right. Go figure.

That girl that died in Morocco last year- was that your now fiance's fiancee or wife?

..................... ???

[deemabrouk 0]

Oh, I'm in a similar position. Badr and I haven't started the visa process yet. But my family has tried everything to get me to cut off contact with him. They tried scare tactics, they've tired taking my daughter away from me and they even tried contacting my ex-husband to have him take my daughter away. I am an adult and I make the decisions now for my daughter and I. I choose to be with a man that loves me completely and would give his life for me. He's much more of a man than the men I've met in the US. Sorry, hope I didn't offend any men. But you have to follow your heart sometimes and block out the negativity. Hopefully our families will come around when they see how happy our SO's make us.

PS. My parents told my sister to marry her Jordanian boyfriend when they found out that his student visa was expiring. So they got married and he got his Master's. So my family are also hypocrites. They don't see anything wrong with telling her to marry a man but when I find one on my own, it's just not right. Go figure.

That girl that died in Morocco last year- was that your now fiance's fiancee or wife?

AAhhhhh sarah....

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You enjoy taking sides, WOM, and do plenty yourself to keep "childish disputes" and "dead horses" open and speculation alive, so you have your own glass house to deal with. I addressed Sarah and her tendency toward tactlessness (which is not old news), not you, but you continue to interject yourself into it, speaking for me, as if she needs you to fight her battles for her.

I have no obligation to be directed by you, but I'd be more inclined to think that you and her sycophants were serious about not continuing to pile on for your friends if you'd back away and leave this between us, thus, not making a divide so concrete and demonstrable. You don't see my friends piling on for me, commanding people to go away, shut up, or accept apologises; they know I can take care of myself just fine. Try defending someone else's free speech sometimes. You'd be more believable then.

You are really caught up in a trip.

Why am I not surprised when your own enabling behavior is brought up to you, WOM, that's all you have to say? Can't speak for yourself, it seems.

About the "red flag" list: One thing that is always overlooked when discussing red flags is that the list is a PARTIAL one; not all encompassing. There are other considerations, such as:

Not the same religon. I know that officials in Morocco, for example, are not keen on mixed marriages because, however moderate the country is, there is a growing belief that the west is a corrupting influence on Muslims. I'm also seeing that belief transferring over to many in the populace.

Not the same ethnicity and/or culture. Consulates do consider the compatibility of couples in thise terms and look for signs of westernization in the applicant.

These are ideas that many here have tended to resist. Nonetheless, they are real. There is more to suspicion of fraud than age gaps, racial differences are also considered because of social shifts, rising divorce rates in the Arab world due to western media influences making people dissatified with the norm, but unrealistic about what western white women are like in real life.

Put that together with growing nationalism and religious fervor, such differences, which have always been part of the equation, become even stronger political considerations that must be taken into account when evaluating whether to grant entry or not.

I'm sorry to say also, that, while I am very sorry there are so many break ups among MENA couples, I can't say I'm surprised. I said before that it was inevitable that the number would be larger than most were thinking it would be. The cultural and religious gaps, not to mention the expectation, are too wide to work well in reality.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[morocco4ever 63]

That one lost me too.

[monnik 0]

That girl that died in Morocco last year- was that your now fiance's fiancee or wife?

Is this coming from another Moroccan board that we are not hip to?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

You enjoy taking sides, WOM, and do plenty yourself to keep "childish disputes" and "dead horses" open and speculation alive, so you have your own glass house to deal with. I addressed Sarah and her tendency toward tactlessness (which is not old news), not you, but you continue to interject yourself into it, speaking for me, as if she needs you to fight her battles for her.

I have no obligation to be directed by you, but I'd be more inclined to think that you and her sycophants were serious about not continuing to pile on for your friends if you'd back away and leave this between us, thus, not making a divide so concrete and demonstrable. You don't see my friends piling on for me, commanding people to go away, shut up, or accept apologises; they know I can take care of myself just fine. Try defending someone else's free speech sometimes. You'd be more believable then.

You are really caught up in a trip.

Why am I not surprised when your own enabling behavior is brought up to you, WOM, that's all you have to say? Can't speak for yourself, it seems.

About the "red flag" list: One thing that is always overlooked when discussing red flags is that the list is a PARTIAL one; not all encompassing. There are other considerations, such as:

Not the same religon. I know that officials in Morocco, for example, are not keen on mixed marriages because, however moderate the country is, there is a growing belief that the west is a corrupting influence on Muslims. I'm also seeing that belief transferring over to many in the populace.

Not the same ethnicity and/or culture. Consulates do consider the compatibility of couples in thise terms and look for signs of westernization in the applicant.

These are ideas that many here have tended to resist. Nonetheless, they are real. There is more to suspicion of fraud than age gaps, racial differences are also considered because of social shifts, rising divorce rates in the Arab world due to western media influences making people dissatified with the norm, but unrealistic about what western white women are like in real life.

Put that together with growing nationalism and religious fervor, such differences, which have always been part of the equation, become even stronger political considerations that must be taken into account when evaluating whether to grant entry or not.

I'm sorry to say also, that, while I am very sorry there are so many break ups among MENA couples, I can't say I'm surprised. I said before that it was inevitable that the number would be larger than most were thinking it would be. The cultural and religious gaps, not to mention the expectation, are too wide to work well in reality.

Uh I think everyone who's been here more than a moment or two (including you) knows I have no difficulties at all in "speaking for myself" I'm just tired of good topics being derailed.

Sooooo back to topic.

Difference in religion is definitely a red flag to the consulates -- this is a very good example, but I have to correct you on it being "overlooked" in this forum. Actually, this *has* been mentioned quite a few times -- some of our mixed-religion couples described being questioned extensively about this issue in the interview.

Still, I have to point out that differences in "ethnicity," "culture" or "race" have *not* been identified in ME/NA, or any other consulate, as a red flag. I realize that you feel very strongly that this is a significant challenge to marriages between ME/NA men and (for a lack of a better term) "Western women," and I am not inclined to categorically disagree with you.

However, it doesn't really matter what you or I personally consider "red flags" that may indicate potential insincerity. In this thread, we are talking about what the *consulates* see as red flags indicating fraud. Actually I am not surprised that differences in "ethnicity," "culture" and "race" are *not* considered potential indicators of fraud by the consulates -- considering our country's own cultural attitudes about ethnicity and the "melting pot".... and most of all considering that the vast majority of cases that the consulates deal with involve Americans marrying foreigners who are -- by definition -- from different cultures.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Uh I think everyone who's been here more than a moment or two (including you) knows I have no difficulties at all in "speaking for myself" I'm just tired of good topics being derailed.

I've been around longer than a moment, but I'm having my doubts about that.

This thread has been around since April; it's not going anywhere. The topic has spread over several threads. It's eternal on an immigration board. That's not what to worry about.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Difference in religion is definitely a red flag to the consulates -- this is a very good example, but I have to correct you on it being "overlooked" in this forum. Actually, this *has* been mentioned quite a few times -- some of our mixed-religion couples described being questioned extensively about this issue in the interview.

Still, I have to point out that differences in "ethnicity," "culture" or "race" have *not* been identified in ME/NA, or any other consulate, as a red flag. I realize that you feel very strongly that this is a significant challenge to marriages between ME/NA men and (for a lack of a better term) "Western women," and I am not inclined to categorically disagree with you.

However, it doesn't really matter what you or I personally consider "red flags" that may indicate potential insincerityIn this thread, we are talking about what the *consulates* see as red flags indicating fraud.. Actually I am not surprised that differences in "ethnicity," "culture" and "race" are *not* considered potential indicators of fraud by the consulates -- considering our country's own cultural attitudes about ethnicity and the "melting pot".... and most of all considering that the vast majority of cases that the consulates deal with involve Americans marrying foreigners who are -- by definition -- from different cultures.

Just a reminder that this is what Mark Ellis posted in his article as his opinion, from his experience about what consulates see as red flags. He also explained that it was not an exhaustive list.

He says:

What are some typical red flags that can cause a Consular Officer to suspect the merits of a relationship?

On the petitioner’s side, here is a brief and, by no means, complete list of reasons I have seen used to justify the return of family-based IV petitions and K petitions to DHS.

1. A very brief courtship followed by a plunge into matrimony;

2. A marriage ceremony arranged only a short time after petitioner arrives in the beneficiary’s country and they meet for the first time;

3. No common language;

4. Petitioner resides with family members of the beneficiary in the US;

5. Petitioner is employed by or has a business relationship with a relative of beneficiary;

6. Petitioner submits phone records that show he uses a residential phone number that is listed in the name of another person.

7. US divorce followed very quickly by an engagement to foreign beneficiary is often a red flag for consular officers.

8. There is little or no documentary evidence of the relationship prior to the actual engagement.

9. Long gaps of time between the petitioner & beneficiary being together in person.

10. Failure to disclose previous marriages;

11. Failure to disclose previous petitions filed on behalf of other beneficiaries.

I’ve only addressed the petitioner’s side of the relationship. There are other red flags that can afflict the beneficiary. But the point to remember is that consulates are not supposed to deny family-IV applications for reasons that were generally available to DHS at the time of approval, so tell DHS in advance of any potential red flags when you file the petition. That doesn’t guarantee consular officers won’t find other reasons unknown to DHS, but at least you will have served your client well by disarming the obvious landmines in his or her path. And you will make the consular officers work by forcing them to examine each and every fact asserted in the petition to see if DHS had knowledge of the information used to justify the recommendation for revocation.

We are free to add based on our collective experience, political and social conditions and the like. All are possible factors, considering the variables involved. This is better than limiting ourselves to a single attorney's list - an abbreviation, which is, in reality, a suggestion of things to prepare for.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Green-eyed girl