LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR RED FLAGS

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Way back to wife_of_mahmoud: I don't think we have a lot of hard data on fraud cases, just suspicions. But age gaps as a flag (as a predictor of fraud) don't help as much when the man is older, since that's the norm. Yet, if you browse around some of the Asia forum, you'll see that some consulates will think the relationship is invalid if the couple hasn't had at least three visits. It's like they suspect fraud so much that nearly everyone is a suspect and age isn't even a big problem.

Yes I mentioned seeing some other regional forums with some members who had age gaps. But I'm speaking specifically about the woman older/man younger relationship in ME/NA -- as it's being perceived here in the ME/NA forum, and I'm especially asking why some of the consulates (especially Morocco) have specifically identified this factor as a potential red flag indicator of fraud.

There are of course many other red flags that ME/NA (and other) consulates look for -- family connections, money being exchanged, marriage soon after a divorce, marriage soon after first meeting, etc.

But I have heard some reports from USCs who have been at their SOs interview, and spoke privately with the COs. They were painted a very disturbing picture of ME/NA men engaging in outright marriage for a green card -- a distinct pattern that included a younger man engaging in a quick online relationship with a older female USC, and marriage soon after first meeting. In these fraudulent cases, the divorce from the USC averaged at about the 5-year anniversary mark (soon after naturalization) and was often soon followed with the man petitioning for a new spouse from his country of origin.

I wonder if that is behind the warning posted on the State Department's page about Egypt, and if other consulates may issue similar alerts.

Have fraudulent older woman/younger man relationships really become such a significant problem in ME/NA ?

Edited October 17, 2007 by wife_of_mahmoud

[deadbird 2]

If the America divorce rate is 60% I would venture to say after being in many MENA forums, not just VJ, the rate is much higher, I would put 83% on a MENA marriage. Would knowing that number have affected if I had married Mohammed, no. I was head over heels in love at first sight and no one could have waved red flags in front of me. I was told repeatedly "habeebti, we are different, our marriage is different,,there has never been a divorce in my family, I will not be the first.....' Well, we all know the end of that story.

Jaklen

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I think it has everything to do with the fact that he's not Moroccan.

I think you are absolutely correct. Hicham and I have both thought this many times.

When we began the whole process in the States, before he ever got stuck in Maroc, the local office couldn't figure out how to code his file because there was no code set up for "Palestinian". He's actually considered "stateless" but not a refugee. Even though he was born in Morocco, he has to have a Palestinian passport. So very freak'in complicated!!!!

Does your formula factor in variables of that nature????

Sorry allousa, I didn't mean to ignore your question here. Actually, I was kidding about really developing a formula. While it would be sooooooo useful, unfortunately, we don't have nearly enough data to come up with anything at all credible. If that data were available, then absolutely, the formula should factor in variables such as those affecting your case, since I think it's pretty clear that Hicham's statelessness is slowing down your process.

I knew you were kidding. I was just wondering if you could add in the "dumb" factor?

I was dumbfounded when we were at our local CIS office and they officers were scratching their heads like they didn't know how to process his case. He even went through filing for Asylum and the court recognized that he was stateless but decided sorry, you can't stay here.

Since I've been here, I think I've only seen two other people with SOs from Palestine, one being WOM. I would be curious to know if SOs coming out of "conflict" areas get the big 'ole nasty red flag?

We had a relatively smooth process (so far... knock on wood) -- much easier than many. I don't know that being Palestinian in itself is necessarily a problem.

More to add but back with that later.......

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Way back to wife_of_mahmoud: I don't think we have a lot of hard data on fraud cases, just suspicions. But age gaps as a flag (as a predictor of fraud) don't help as much when the man is older, since that's the norm. Yet, if you browse around some of the Asia forum, you'll see that some consulates will think the relationship is invalid if the couple hasn't had at least three visits. It's like they suspect fraud so much that nearly everyone is a suspect and age isn't even a big problem.

Yes I mentioned seeing some other regional forums with some members who had age gaps. But I'm speaking specifically about the woman older/man younger relationship in ME/NA -- as it's being perceived here in the ME/NA forum, and I'm especially asking why some of the consulates (especially Morocco) have specifically identified this factor as a potential red flag indicator of fraud.

There are of course many other red flags that ME/NA (and other) consulates look for -- family connections, money being exchanged, marriage soon after a divorce, marriage soon after first meeting, etc.

But I have heard some reports from USCs who have been at their SOs interview, and spoke privately with the COs. They were painted a very disturbing picture of ME/NA men engaging in outright marriage for a green card -- a distinct pattern that included a younger man engaging in a quick online relationship with a older female USC, and marriage soon after first meeting. In these fraudulent cases, the divorce from the USC averaged at about the 5-year anniversary mark (soon after naturalization) and was often soon followed with the man petitioning for a new spouse from his country of origin.

I wonder if that is behind the warning posted on the State Department's page about Egypt, and if other consulates may issue similar alerts.

Have fraudulent older woman/younger man relationships really become such a significant problem in ME/NA ?

From the state department site

Many marriages between Egyptians and Americans are successful. However, the Embassy warns against marriage fraud on the part of the American or the Egyptian. Entering into a marriage contract for the principal purpose of facilitating immigration to the United States for an alien is against U.S. law and can result in serious penalties, including fines and imprisonment for the American citizen and the Egyptian. At the same time, it is not uncommon for Egyptians to enter into marriages with Americans solely for immigration purposes. Relationships developed via correspondence, particularly those begun on the Internet, are particularly susceptible to manipulation. The US government urges Americans who meet Egyptians on the Internet or while touring the country, to take the time necessary to get to know them before considering marriage. Unfortunately, the Embassy sees many cases of abuse against American spouses and often the marriages end in divorce when the Egyptian acquires a green card or citizenship in the U.S. These cases invariably occur when the relationship is based mostly on Internet communication and very little face-to-face interaction.

[JODO 2]

Way back to wife_of_mahmoud: I don't think we have a lot of hard data on fraud cases, just suspicions. But age gaps as a flag (as a predictor of fraud) don't help as much when the man is older, since that's the norm. Yet, if you browse around some of the Asia forum, you'll see that some consulates will think the relationship is invalid if the couple hasn't had at least three visits. It's like they suspect fraud so much that nearly everyone is a suspect and age isn't even a big problem.

Yes I mentioned seeing some other regional forums with some members who had age gaps. But I'm speaking specifically about the woman older/man younger relationship in ME/NA -- as it's being perceived here in the ME/NA forum, and I'm especially asking why some of the consulates (especially Morocco) have specifically identified this factor as a potential red flag indicator of fraud.

There are of course many other red flags that ME/NA (and other) consulates look for -- family connections, money being exchanged, marriage soon after a divorce, marriage soon after first meeting, etc.

But I have heard some reports from USCs who have been at their SOs interview, and spoke privately with the COs. They were painted a very disturbing picture of ME/NA men engaging in outright marriage for a green card -- a distinct pattern that included a younger man engaging in a quick online relationship with a older female USC, and marriage soon after first meeting. In these fraudulent cases, the divorce from the USC averaged at about the 5-year anniversary mark (soon after naturalization) and was often soon followed with the man petitioning for a new spouse from his country of origin.

I wonder if that is behind the warning posted on the State Department's page about Egypt, and if other consulates may issue similar alerts.

Have fraudulent older woman/younger man relationships really become such a significant problem in ME/NA ?

From the state department site

Many marriages between Egyptians and Americans are successful. However, the Embassy warns against marriage fraud on the part of the American or the Egyptian. Entering into a marriage contract for the principal purpose of facilitating immigration to the United States for an alien is against U.S. law and can result in serious penalties, including fines and imprisonment for the American citizen and the Egyptian. At the same time, it is not uncommon for Egyptians to enter into marriages with Americans solely for immigration purposes. Relationships developed via correspondence, particularly those begun on the Internet, are particularly susceptible to manipulation. The US government urges Americans who meet Egyptians on the Internet or while touring the country, to take the time necessary to get to know them before considering marriage. Unfortunately, the Embassy sees many cases of abuse against American spouses and often the marriages end in divorce when the Egyptian acquires a green card or citizenship in the U.S. These cases invariably occur when the relationship is based mostly on Internet communication and very little face-to-face interaction.

Wahrania that has already been posted and we are all pretty much aware of the Consular Sheet for Egypt.

[amrssnowangel 0]

If the America divorce rate is 60% I would venture to say after being in many MENA forums, not just VJ, the rate is much higher, I would put 83% on a MENA marriage. Would knowing that number have affected if I had married Mohammed, no. I was head over heels in love at first sight and no one could have waved red flags in front of me. I was told repeatedly "habeebti, we are different, our marriage is different,,there has never been a divorce in my family, I will not be the first.....' Well, we all know the end of that story.

Jaklen

Wait are you saying that 83% of MENA marriages break up? Do you mean a mixed MENA marriage, or any MENA marriage?

First of all, Sparrow...calmmmmmmm...breath....your man is Coptic...if he is real into his faith, he doesn't believe in Divorce. Most good muslim men wont treat a wife in a bad way. IF MENA marriage divorce rate is higher...its because of the parties failure to truely understand and adapt to the cultural differences. WE can not take the information from the break ups here on VJ alone. This is a SUPPORT forum....support is only for those that NEED support and those that want to give support. Its not really accurate to account for breakups here. We dont have enough MENA members to give us accurate data.

[amrssnowangel 0]

If the America divorce rate is 60% I would venture to say after being in many MENA forums, not just VJ, the rate is much higher, I would put 83% on a MENA marriage. Would knowing that number have affected if I had married Mohammed, no. I was head over heels in love at first sight and no one could have waved red flags in front of me. I was told repeatedly "habeebti, we are different, our marriage is different,,there has never been a divorce in my family, I will not be the first.....' Well, we all know the end of that story.

Jaklen

Wait are you saying that 83% of MENA marriages break up? Do you mean a mixed MENA marriage, or any MENA marriage?

Also according to this link...MENA isn't the only ones with high divorce rate...but others as well...to me that says cultural differences play a huge role in divorce.

http://www.divorcereform.org/sha.html

[♥JP♥ 5]

If the America divorce rate is 60% I would venture to say after being in many MENA forums, not just VJ, the rate is much higher, I would put 83% on a MENA marriage. Would knowing that number have affected if I had married Mohammed, no. I was head over heels in love at first sight and no one could have waved red flags in front of me. I was told repeatedly "habeebti, we are different, our marriage is different,,there has never been a divorce in my family, I will not be the first.....' Well, we all know the end of that story.

Jaklen

Wait are you saying that 83% of MENA marriages break up? Do you mean a mixed MENA marriage, or any MENA marriage?

First of all, Sparrow...calmmmmmmm...breath....your man is Coptic...if he is real into his faith, he doesn't believe in Divorce. Most good muslim men wont treat a wife in a bad way. IF MENA marriage divorce rate is higher...its because of the parties failure to truely understand and adapt to the cultural differences. WE can not take the information from the break ups here on VJ alone. This is a SUPPORT forum....support is only for those that NEED support and those that want to give support. Its not really accurate to account for breakups here. We dont have enough MENA members to give us accurate data.

Being Coptic doesn't mean you don't believe in divorce, the coptic church, along with others do have a means to divorce your partner. I hear this quite often, that Catholics, Coptics, Orthodox, don't believe in divorce. Not true at all, times have changed and the religions have evolved.

[allousa 1]

I think it has everything to do with the fact that he's not Moroccan.

I think you are absolutely correct. Hicham and I have both thought this many times.

When we began the whole process in the States, before he ever got stuck in Maroc, the local office couldn't figure out how to code his file because there was no code set up for "Palestinian". He's actually considered "stateless" but not a refugee. Even though he was born in Morocco, he has to have a Palestinian passport. So very freak'in complicated!!!!

Does your formula factor in variables of that nature????

Sorry allousa, I didn't mean to ignore your question here. Actually, I was kidding about really developing a formula. While it would be sooooooo useful, unfortunately, we don't have nearly enough data to come up with anything at all credible. If that data were available, then absolutely, the formula should factor in variables such as those affecting your case, since I think it's pretty clear that Hicham's statelessness is slowing down your process.

I knew you were kidding. I was just wondering if you could add in the "dumb" factor?

I was dumbfounded when we were at our local CIS office and they officers were scratching their heads like they didn't know how to process his case. He even went through filing for Asylum and the court recognized that he was stateless but decided sorry, you can't stay here.

Since I've been here, I think I've only seen two other people with SOs from Palestine, one being WOM. I would be curious to know if SOs coming out of "conflict" areas get the big 'ole nasty red flag?

We had a relatively smooth process (so far... knock on wood) -- much easier than many. I don't know that being Palestinian in itself is necessarily a problem.

More to add but back with that later.......

I just can't think of any other red flag in our case than that which would have caused us to be in AP for well over a year other than Hicham being Palestinian. There is no age difference, no criminal record...NOTHING. I've seen most people go through the waiver process in 8 months to 1 1/2 years max. It should have NEVER taken 4 years for us to get to this point.

I would be interested in your thoughts and experiences on this.

[deadbird 2]

First of all, Sparrow...calmmmmmmm...breath....your man is Coptic...if he is real into his faith, he doesn't believe in Divorce. Most good muslim men wont treat a wife in a bad way. IF MENA marriage divorce rate is higher...its because of the parties failure to truely understand and adapt to the cultural differences. WE can not take the information from the break ups here on VJ alone. This is a SUPPORT forum....support is only for those that NEED support and those that want to give support. Its not really accurate to account for breakups here. We dont have enough MENA members to give us accurate data.

I know. If he had any idea the thought even crossed my mind a fraction of once it would break his heart. I'm just really stressed about a lot of stuff lately and the guy he wanted to be his best man (who was like his best friend when he was here 6 years ago) didn't even know who I was and was really rude to me so it just really unnerved me a bit. And half the people who are helping me with the wedding are like "ARE YOU SURE IT'S NOT FOR A GREEN CARD?!?!! YOU KNOW ALL THOSE ARABS BEAT THEIR WIVES" give me a ********* break already!

--Bridezilla

[JODO 2]

First of all, Sparrow...calmmmmmmm...breath....your man is Coptic...if he is real into his faith, he doesn't believe in Divorce. Most good muslim men wont treat a wife in a bad way. IF MENA marriage divorce rate is higher...its because of the parties failure to truely understand and adapt to the cultural differences. WE can not take the information from the break ups here on VJ alone. This is a SUPPORT forum....support is only for those that NEED support and those that want to give support. Its not really accurate to account for breakups here. We dont have enough MENA members to give us accurate data.

I know. If he had any idea the thought even crossed my mind a fraction of once it would break his heart. I'm just really stressed about a lot of stuff lately and the guy he wanted to be his best man (who was like his best friend when he was here 6 years ago) didn't even know who I was and was really rude to me so it just really unnerved me a bit. And half the people who are helping me with the wedding are like "ARE YOU SURE IT'S NOT FOR A GREEN CARD?!?!! YOU KNOW ALL THOSE ARABS BEAT THEIR WIVES" give me a ********* break already!

--Bridezilla

edit

Edited October 17, 2007 by JODO

[ak3 0]

I have a question. In egypt, there are only two choices of religion from what I understand coptic christian or muslim that are recognized. Why is this and are there buddists or other religious people that just do not tell people of their beliefs there for fear living there? That is something that I wondered and found really disturbing in the time that I was there; and also how people label religion when not everything in it they beleve or agree with. I think it is all up to the married people and not a religious label

[allousa 1]

First of all, Sparrow...calmmmmmmm...breath....your man is Coptic...if he is real into his faith, he doesn't believe in Divorce. Most good muslim men wont treat a wife in a bad way. IF MENA marriage divorce rate is higher...its because of the parties failure to truely understand and adapt to the cultural differences. WE can not take the information from the break ups here on VJ alone. This is a SUPPORT forum....support is only for those that NEED support and those that want to give support. Its not really accurate to account for breakups here. We dont have enough MENA members to give us accurate data.

I know. If he had any idea the thought even crossed my mind a fraction of once it would break his heart. I'm just really stressed about a lot of stuff lately and the guy he wanted to be his best man (who was like his best friend when he was here 6 years ago) didn't even know who I was and was really rude to me so it just really unnerved me a bit. And half the people who are helping me with the wedding are like "ARE YOU SURE IT'S NOT FOR A GREEN CARD?!?!! YOU KNOW ALL THOSE ARABS BEAT THEIR WIVES" give me a ********* break already!

--Bridezilla

OMG!!!!! I HATE when people say that stupid #######!!!! I hope that when your wedding day gets here, that the only thoughts in your mind are those of you and Ramy having a sweet and wonderful life!

[monnik 0]

If the America divorce rate is 60% I would venture to say after being in many MENA forums, not just VJ, the rate is much higher, I would put 83% on a MENA marriage. Would knowing that number have affected if I had married Mohammed, no. I was head over heels in love at first sight and no one could have waved red flags in front of me. I was told repeatedly "habeebti, we are different, our marriage is different,,there has never been a divorce in my family, I will not be the first.....' Well, we all know the end of that story.

Jaklen

Wait are you saying that 83% of MENA marriages break up? Do you mean a mixed MENA marriage, or any MENA marriage?

First of all, Sparrow...calmmmmmmm...breath....your man is Coptic...if he is real into his faith, he doesn't believe in Divorce. Most good muslim men wont treat a wife in a bad way. IF MENA marriage divorce rate is higher...its because of the parties failure to truely understand and adapt to the cultural differences. WE can not take the information from the break ups here on VJ alone. This is a SUPPORT forum....support is only for those that NEED support and those that want to give support. Its not really accurate to account for breakups here. We dont have enough MENA members to give us accurate data.

Being Coptic doesn't mean you don't believe in divorce, the coptic church, along with others do have a means to divorce your partner. I hear this quite often, that Catholics, Coptics, Orthodox, don't believe in divorce. Not true at all, times have changed and the religions have evolved.

This is true. Divorce is allowed (in certain situations), but remarriage is the problem. So, if you marry a Copt and the marriage is recognized by the Coptic church, remarriage is not an option. You get one shot at a marriage(in the church). The key factor (to not divorcing) is that he must be a believer and follow the guidelines of his church.

"Divorce is not allowed except in the case of adultery, annulment due to bigamy, or other extreme circumstances, which must be reviewed by a special council of Bishops. Divorce can be requested by either husband or wife. Civil divorce is not recognized by the Church. " Taken from coptic.net

"Marriage in Egypt is legally registered, Anba Bessanty, Bishop of Maasara and Helwan, explained; this makes divorce through a court of law standard procedure. So far, so good. But when it comes to remarriage, the Bishop goes on, "it is the church's business, for we follow the words of Jesus Christ when He was asked, 'Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?' He answered, 'whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery' (Mathew 5:22)." article in al ahram weekly

Another reason for the "Copts don't believe in divorce" mentality is the cultural and family influences. Because both families are intertwined, there is a very small probability that the couple will divorce.

That doesn't mean they can't get remarried in the US of A. They just won't be able to marry again in Egypt or in the church.

[♥JP♥ 5]

If the America divorce rate is 60% I would venture to say after being in many MENA forums, not just VJ, the rate is much higher, I would put 83% on a MENA marriage. Would knowing that number have affected if I had married Mohammed, no. I was head over heels in love at first sight and no one could have waved red flags in front of me. I was told repeatedly "habeebti, we are different, our marriage is different,,there has never been a divorce in my family, I will not be the first.....' Well, we all know the end of that story.

Jaklen

Wait are you saying that 83% of MENA marriages break up? Do you mean a mixed MENA marriage, or any MENA marriage?

First of all, Sparrow...calmmmmmmm...breath....your man is Coptic...if he is real into his faith, he doesn't believe in Divorce. Most good muslim men wont treat a wife in a bad way. IF MENA marriage divorce rate is higher...its because of the parties failure to truely understand and adapt to the cultural differences. WE can not take the information from the break ups here on VJ alone. This is a SUPPORT forum....support is only for those that NEED support and those that want to give support. Its not really accurate to account for breakups here. We dont have enough MENA members to give us accurate data.

Being Coptic doesn't mean you don't believe in divorce, the coptic church, along with others do have a means to divorce your partner. I hear this quite often, that Catholics, Coptics, Orthodox, don't believe in divorce. Not true at all, times have changed and the religions have evolved.

This is true. Divorce is allowed (in certain situations), but remarriage is the problem. So, if you marry a Copt and the marriage is recognized by the Coptic church, remarriage is not an option. You get one shot at a marriage(in the church). The key factor (to not divorcing) is that he must be a believer and follow the guidelines of his church.

"Divorce is not allowed except in the case of adultery, annulment due to bigamy, or other extreme circumstances, which must be reviewed by a special council of Bishops. Divorce can be requested by either husband or wife. Civil divorce is not recognized by the Church. " Taken from coptic.net

"Marriage in Egypt is legally registered, Anba Bessanty, Bishop of Maasara and Helwan, explained; this makes divorce through a court of law standard procedure. So far, so good. But when it comes to remarriage, the Bishop goes on, "it is the church's business, for we follow the words of Jesus Christ when He was asked, 'Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?' He answered, 'whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery' (Mathew 5:22)." article in al ahram weekly

Another reason for the "Copts don't believe in divorce" mentality is the cultural and family influences. Because both families are intertwined, there is a very small probability that the couple will divorce.

That doesn't mean they can't get remarried in the US of A. They just won't be able to marry again in Egypt or in the church.

However that is changing. It used to be that you could never remarry in a church and now the rule has changed that you must wait 7 years. This was the same in Jordan and many MENA countries and it has changed over the years. The Coptic church is very similar to the church I attend as well. There really isnt much difference actually. I'm pretty sure Egypt will follow along with the practice of the other churchs in MENA sooner than later.