Trump demands apology from "Hamilton " staff

[Teddy B 17,252]

Hamilton the musical is a political dialogue. Why is it not the right venue for a capstone speech to the audience?

Its not like it was a lecture on top of the Lion King.

Hamilton the musical is a political dialogue about a certain time period in history. For members of the cast to be giving unsolicited lectures/speeches about their own personal feelings of the current president/VP elect is over the line and not what one should expect when attending this show. Let me ask you this. If a member of the cast of Hamilton chose to speak out in favor of the Nazi party, would you be okay with it? Is that the proper venue for it?

Just last week here in Boston, comedienne Wanda Sykes was booed off the TD Garden stage after making a bunch of anti Trump jokes during her routine. she was looking for a reaction, but didn't get the one she was looking for and proceeded to flip off the crowd on her way off the stage.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Teddy B

[Rob L 3,811]

Hamilton the musical is a political dialogue about a certain time period in history. For members of the cast to be giving unsolicited lectures/speeches about their own personal feelings of the current president/VP elect is over the line and not what one should expect when attending this show. Let me ask you this. If a member of the cast of Hamilton chose to speak out in favor of the Nazi party, would you be okay with it? Is that the proper venue for it?

Just last week here in Boston, comedienne Wanda Sykes was booed off the TD Garden stage after making a bunch of anti Trump jokes during her routine. she was looking for a reaction, but didn't get the one she was looking for and proceeded to flip off the crowd on her way off the stage.

If a member of the cast of Hamilton chose to speak out in favor of the Nazi party, would you be okay with it? Is that the proper venue for it?

I would never tolerate hate speech and speaking in favor a National Socialism or White Nationalism would be to me , hate speech. I think this is a false equivalency.

[Teddy B 17,252]

If a member of the cast of Hamilton chose to speak out in favor of the Nazi party, would you be okay with it? Is that the proper venue for it?

I would never tolerate hate speech and speaking in favor a National Socialism or White Nationalism would be to me , hate speech. I think this is a false equivalency.

But it's a political topic in a political venue. Simply talking about the Nazi party does not equal hate speech. Why wouldn't it be okay?

If you still think it's a false equivalency, let's just change the players. Put Obama in that crowd and have a member of the cast call out Obama for his handling of the Trayvon Martin case or his handling of the Iraq war. Is that okay? And if it is okay, where do we draw the line?

[Rob L 3,811]

But it's a political topic in a political venue. Simply talking about the Nazi party does not equal hate speech. Why wouldn't it be okay?

If you still think it's a false equivalency, let's just change the players. Put Obama in that crowd and have a member of the cast call out Obama for his handling of the Trayvon Martin case or his handling of the Iraq war. Is that okay? And if it is okay, where do we draw the line?

these are legit :

" member of the cast call out Obama for his handling of the Trayvon Martin case or his handling of the Iraq war"

[yuna628 9,758]

But it's a political topic in a political venue. Simply talking about the Nazi party does not equal hate speech. Why wouldn't it be okay?

If you still think it's a false equivalency, let's just change the players. Put Obama in that crowd and have a member of the cast call out Obama for his handling of the Trayvon Martin case or his handling of the Iraq war. Is that okay? And if it is okay, where do we draw the line?

I'm a bit libertarian minded when it comes to speech. In a public space, a person has the right to exercise speech even if it seems impolite or against 'social standard'. Is it okay in this Obama scenario you've suggested? Freedom-wise as legally protected speech? Yep it is. Even if it's bothersome and against social decorum, or rude.

Are there society consequences to such free public speech? Yes! In your description of the comedian getting 'booed' off stage for her jokes. She chose to make her speech heard, and the audience chose to make their speech heard. It was both her and their choices. The consequences of her actions resulted in the feedback she received, and she chose to run away instead of continuing her dialogue.

You'd notice the KKK is free to roam around and make their speech heard loudly, as is the Nazi party strangely enough. Free speech is how they get away with what they do, unless it resorts in violence, violation of unwanted propaganda/spam onto private property, or damage on private/public property, or violation of any public or state ordinance... then? So if such a like minded individual were to make comments in a similar approved manner (as was the Hamilton actor), without the incitement of hatred or announcements of criminal acts they would have the right to do so. No matter if it really offended you, or how offensive I would find it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/07/no-theres-no-hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/?utm_term=.67c051f52947 https://reason.com/blog/2016/11/21/10-things-libertarians-need-to-know-abou

The WBC constantly uses 'free speech' as a way to do all sorts of very obnoxious hateful things, and continue to spew their filth. They are generally and usually allowed to do so... but the consequence to this is that usually very kind and wonderful counter-protestors show up with creative ways to keep the filth out of view.

If the cast member spoke in favor of a Nazi party, people also have the ability to decide with their money whether they wish to 'condone' that type of behavior. If done in a way not approved by the boss or against job policy, the boss also can decide to fire him. It can also work against those trying to be oh so clever too. In the middle of a production; for instance during one Chicago Hamilton play, a Trump supporter began to swear, insult, and heckle during the course of the play. His free speech I suppose, but he was removed for being disruptive, racist, indecent, and combative. He did not wait to speak his views until the end of the play, but instead decided to be a butthead about it. In contrasting that behavior, with the actor's I just can't see that he did anything relatively offensive, especially if the individual spoken to found no offense in it.

Keep in mind though I feel overall it would be wise if we as society could be a lot more kind to one another, and especially civil. Decorum can also be an equally important trait to teach our kids, and that we could speak our opinions in a more tactful way not designed to cause harm. That being said, he tone of which he spoke was not rude, the topic of the play is extremely political, and Pence was not offended. We know what person and their cronies were YUGELY offended... and a big fuss was made. He'll use anything to get attention on himself. It's going to be a 'fun' 4 years of his twitter-whining.

Edited November 21, 2016 by yuna628

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

I wonder how much it hurts if you stick a diaper pin in your butt

[Rob L 3,811]

I wonder how much it hurts if you stick a diaper pin in your butt

get back to us on that

[Rob L 3,811]

I'm a bit libertarian minded when it comes to speech. In a public space, a person has the right to exercise speech even if it seems impolite or against 'social standard'. Is it okay in this Obama scenario you've suggested? Freedom-wise as legally protected speech? Yep it is. Even if it's bothersome and against social decorum, or rude.

Are there society consequences to such free public speech? Yes! In your description of the comedian getting 'booed' off stage for her jokes. She chose to make her speech heard, and the audience chose to make their speech heard. It was both her and their choices. The consequences of her actions resulted in the feedback she received, and she chose to run away instead of continuing her dialogue.

You'd notice the KKK is free to roam around and make their speech heard loudly, as is the Nazi party strangely enough. Free speech is how they get away with what they do, unless it resorts in violence, violation of unwanted propaganda/spam onto private property, or damage on private/public property, or violation of any public or state ordinance... then? So if such a like minded individual were to make comments in a similar approved manner (as was the Hamilton actor), without the incitement of hatred or announcements of criminal acts they would have the right to do so. No matter if it really offended you, or how offensive I would find it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/07/no-theres-no-hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/?utm_term=.67c051f52947 https://reason.com/blog/2016/11/21/10-things-libertarians-need-to-know-abou

The WBC constantly uses 'free speech' as a way to do all sorts of very obnoxious hateful things, and continue to spew their filth. They are generally and usually allowed to do so... but the consequence to this is that usually very kind and wonderful counter-protestors show up with creative ways to keep the filth out of view.

If the cast member spoke in favor of a Nazi party, people also have the ability to decide with their money whether they wish to 'condone' that type of behavior. If done in a way not approved by the boss or against job policy, the boss also can decide to fire him. It can also work against those trying to be oh so clever too. In the middle of a production; for instance during one Chicago Hamilton play, a Trump supporter began to swear, insult, and heckle during the course of the play. His free speech I suppose, but he was removed for being disruptive, racist, indecent, and combative. He did not wait to speak his views until the end of the play, but instead decided to be a butthead about it. In contrasting that behavior, with the actor's I just can't see that he did anything relatively offensive, especially if the individual spoken to found no offense in it.

Keep in mind though I feel overall it would be wise if we as society could be a lot more kind to one another, and especially civil. Decorum can also be an equally important trait to teach our kids, and that we could speak our opinions in a more tactful way not designed to cause harm. That being said, he tone of which he spoke was not rude, the topic of the play is extremely political, and Pence was not offended. We know what person and their cronies were YUGELY offended... and a big fuss was made. He'll use anything to get attention on himself. It's going to be a 'fun' 4 years of his twitter-whining.

You are a gentlewoman and a scholar.

Let the free market of ideas speak, if you don't want to get preached at, don't go to Hamilton ( there are bazillions of folks waiting for your spot)

[Teddy B 17,252]

You are a gentlewoman and a scholar.

Let the free market of ideas speak, if you don't want to get preached at, don't go to Hamilton ( there are bazillions of folks waiting for your spot)

Do you really believe that's the answer to this? A politician cannot attend public events with his/her family as a spectator without being singled out and lectured to publicly for his/her policies? Sounds pretty darn intolerant and flat out rude to me. I would hope the majority of people would have a better moral standard.

[Teddy B 17,252]

these are legit :

" member of the cast call out Obama for his handling of the Trayvon Martin case or his handling of the Iraq war"

So this would be okay if President Obama was attending a play with his wife and daughters for a member of the cast to call him out publicly in front of everyone for his policies?

[Teddy B 17,252]

I'm a bit libertarian minded when it comes to speech. In a public space, a person has the right to exercise speech even if it seems impolite or against 'social standard'. Is it okay in this Obama scenario you've suggested? Freedom-wise as legally protected speech? Yep it is. Even if it's bothersome and against social decorum, or rude.

Are there society consequences to such free public speech? Yes! In your description of the comedian getting 'booed' off stage for her jokes. She chose to make her speech heard, and the audience chose to make their speech heard. It was both her and their choices. The consequences of her actions resulted in the feedback she received, and she chose to run away instead of continuing her dialogue.

You'd notice the KKK is free to roam around and make their speech heard loudly, as is the Nazi party strangely enough. Free speech is how they get away with what they do, unless it resorts in violence, violation of unwanted propaganda/spam onto private property, or damage on private/public property, or violation of any public or state ordinance... then? So if such a like minded individual were to make comments in a similar approved manner (as was the Hamilton actor), without the incitement of hatred or announcements of criminal acts they would have the right to do so. No matter if it really offended you, or how offensive I would find it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/07/no-theres-no-hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/?utm_term=.67c051f52947 https://reason.com/blog/2016/11/21/10-things-libertarians-need-to-know-abou

The WBC constantly uses 'free speech' as a way to do all sorts of very obnoxious hateful things, and continue to spew their filth. They are generally and usually allowed to do so... but the consequence to this is that usually very kind and wonderful counter-protestors show up with creative ways to keep the filth out of view.

If the cast member spoke in favor of a Nazi party, people also have the ability to decide with their money whether they wish to 'condone' that type of behavior. If done in a way not approved by the boss or against job policy, the boss also can decide to fire him. It can also work against those trying to be oh so clever too. In the middle of a production; for instance during one Chicago Hamilton play, a Trump supporter began to swear, insult, and heckle during the course of the play. His free speech I suppose, but he was removed for being disruptive, racist, indecent, and combative. He did not wait to speak his views until the end of the play, but instead decided to be a butthead about it. In contrasting that behavior, with the actor's I just can't see that he did anything relatively offensive, especially if the individual spoken to found no offense in it.

Keep in mind though I feel overall it would be wise if we as society could be a lot more kind to one another, and especially civil. Decorum can also be an equally important trait to teach our kids, and that we could speak our opinions in a more tactful way not designed to cause harm. That being said, he tone of which he spoke was not rude, the topic of the play is extremely political, and Pence was not offended. We know what person and their cronies were YUGELY offended... and a big fuss was made. He'll use anything to get attention on himself. It's going to be a 'fun' 4 years of his twitter-whining.

I'm well aware of what free speech is and what the consequences can be for exercising that right. I believe you and I agree that the cast member had a constitutional right to do what he did. I also think we agree that it probably wasn't the best venue to vocalize his beliefs, so I'm not quite sure where we disagree. Perhaps we disagree in that I don't believe those actions are morally acceptable in my world?

[russandraquel 86]

"Love the art but hate the artist"

or if that isn't true, because "love the sinner but hate the sin"...then

"Love the art but make policies to treat the artist like second class citizens, then be up in arms when they say something."

It was totally appropriate, because Mike Pence has a terrible record on these issues. It was appropriate to call out people on the wrong side of women's suffrage, and it is appropriate here. I am happy he accepts it, and hopefully his fame in this matter ends with him on the other side of the argument and on the right side of history.

Edited November 21, 2016 by russandraquel

[Teddy B 17,252]

"Love the art but hate the artist"

or if that isn't true, because "love the sinner but hate the sin"...then

"Love the art but make policies to treat the artist like second class citizens, then be up in arms when they say something."

It was totally appropriate, because Mike Pence has a terrible record on these issues. It was appropriate to call out people on the wrong side of women's suffrage, and it is appropriate here. I am happy he accepts it, and hopefully his fame in this matter ends with him on the other side of the argument and on the right side of history.

I'll ask you the same question: Would this be okay if President Obama was attending a play with his wife and daughters for a member of the cast to call him out publicly in front of everyone for his policies?

[bcking 3,157]

Few comments since I fell behind on this discussion:

1. Hamilton is NOT just about politics during a "certain time in history". It is very much about modern America as well. As someone else mentions I agree that in the setting of this particular musical their message was not as "off topic" as if it was during something like Aladdin, Lion King etc...

2. People need to stop pointing at the single actor. He was approached by the producers, and LMM was involved as well. He was asked to say it at the end, but he didn't write it. It was something that came from the entire production as a whole. (Not saying this changes the discussion that much, but that if you are angry direct at not just him but the whole production)

3. The booing was not brought on by the company, and they even tried to calm the audience (from what it looks like in the videos of the speech). So I think we also need to separate what they said from the "booing" and "heckling". The cast themselves were not heckling Pence. Blame the audience for booing him.

Bottom line I felt like the cast/company believe very strongly in certain things, they got together and decided how to address that knowing he would be there, and they did it in the most respectful way that they could. Their language was focused on hope. They didn't say "You're an evil racist and we hate you". They said that they hope he will consider yada yada. It was as positive as they could make it. As an amateur musician I don't think I would stand up on stage to deliver a political message if I were giving a performance, however I recognize that their performance itself was already very political and I'm not all that surprised (or bothered) that they did it.

If Obama attended a play about a time in American History where people tried to "take away the people's guns" and that was the focus of the play, and at the end of the play the cast members stood up and said "Obama we hope you enjoyed our show and we emplore you to think about all of the people who value and love their guns and please consider that" I don't think he would have been offended.

[bcking 3,157]

I'll ask you the same question: Would this be okay if President Obama was attending a play with his wife and daughters for a member of the cast to call him out publicly in front of everyone for his policies?

I already expressed my opinion on this: If the play was about American History and focused on a policiy that is now topical in today's world and Obama has previously publicly stood up against it (Say gun control, and Obama had explicitly said in the past that he wanted to "take away the guns" and the play was about say some event 200 years ago where people tried to take away our guns), I don't think it would be inappropriate for the cast to direct a message to the President as long as it is as polite as possible.

Again I thought the "speech" was pretty darn polite. The cast wasn't booing or heckling. It was one guy reading a 30 second blurb about love and acceptance. If someone read a similar blurb about love and acceptance and the right to bear arms while President Obama was in the audience I think it would be fine. I also can almost guarantee the President wouldn't complain about it later (Nor is Pence really complaining).