Draining the Ditch

[bcking 3,157]

But Black people commit over 45% of the violent crime in the US so of course they are going to have more encounters with the police

As I said if you filter and only look at fatal shootings involving unarmed "assailants" or "toy-armed assailants", the ratio of african americans goes up even more (Up to 34%). Even higher if you filter out people suffering from mental health crises (39%).

Also worth mentioning that the response to violent crime does not always have to be fatally shooting the person. So while I agree that the rate of violent crime in each population is important to consider, it is not a direct 1:1 ratio with fatal shootings. "Violent crime" can involve someone who is unarmed where there would be a more appropriate response.

Edited November 10, 2016 by bcking

[smilesammich 10,727]

As I said if you filter and only look at fatal shootings involving unarmed "assailants" or "toy-armed assailants", the ratio of african americans goes up even more (Up to 34%). Even higher if you filter out people suffering from mental health crises (39%).

Also worth mentioning that the response to violent crime does not always have to be fatally shooting the person. So while I agree that the rate of violent crime in each population is important to consider, it is not a direct 1:1 ratio with fatal shootings. "Violent crime" can involve someone who is unarmed where there would be a more appropriate response.

you're talking to someone who doesn't see the big deal about stop and frisk and will pretty much ALWAYS find some way to justify fatal police shootings. if tamir rice's murder can be justified by the cehst crowd, then you know that even total innocence but 'black so possibly dangerous' interaction warrants execution by cop.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

I understand that you are new here. But this topic has been discussed ad nauseum. Many times. my thoughts to you is to ignore news stories and blogs/forums for your data. Use the DOJ, FBI, CDC, BOJ sites. I think you will find that raw numbers, whites are killed more often than blacks. Proportionally, it's pretty close. Good luck on finding data on armed vs. unarmed perps, as well as thugs vs. innocent victims. That is hard to come by.

At the end of the day, very few deaths in America are by guns, and even fewer are by cops.

1. Provide the data please

2. I was talking specifically about "unarmed" victims.

3. Also be careful to distinguish between absolute numbers and proportions. More white people may be killed, but they also make up something like 60% or more of the US population.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

I'll be kind and give you a choice... Sammiches or vacuum cleaner. You are not allowed to judge all of us white, racist, xenophobic, black-killing middle-aged men tonight. You KNOW we have been over this hundreds of times.

Truth is, bcking, there are tragic murders on ALL sides... Whites killing blacks, blacks killing whites, cops killing people, people killing cops. But one simply CANNOT lump them all together. Trayvon Martin is different from Freddie Gray, is different from Charles Kinsey, is different from Michael Brown. They are all unique and individual cases. And I have just listed the minorities who got shot, not the white ones.

Here's the deal, according to ME... There are good and there are bad cops. They have a tough job, keeping the peace. It is unfair for citizens to sit in the safety of their living rooms or bed rooms and judge whether a cop was justified in pulling their triggers. "Don't judge until you have walked a mile in their moccasins" or something close to that. When a second or two is often the difference between life and death, sometimes mistakes are made.

And to be clear, I am NOT making blanket excuses for cops. There are bad cops out there. Racist cops. Cops who don't feel bad about taking a life. We have all seen it. The young black kid in the gazebo who had a toy gun and cops charged in like crazy and shot him. Charles Kinsey (I still think his shooter deserves jail time). And many more I cannot name. But I also recognize that SOME of the killing or shooting of unarmed people happen in the heat of the moment, and some latitude needs to be given.

Again, I encourage you to ignore the news sites and blogs or forums. Look at the raw stats like FBI, DOJ, CDC, etc. And while you are doing that, and it appears at first that America is full of gun-toting cowboys just waiting to shoot someone, look at the per capita killings, as well as the number of guns in America compared to the number of murders.

And then of course there is the very real issue of leading causes of death in the US... Homicide by firearm is like #107 on the list. Not saying it's not an issue, but there are so many more ways that people die than by guns that are just glossed over.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_05.pdf

you're talking to someone who doesn't see the big deal about stop and frisk and will pretty much ALWAYS find some way to justify fatal police shootings. if tamir rice's murder can be justified by the cehst crowd, then you know that even total innocence but 'black so possibly dangerous' interaction warrants execution by cop.

[bcking 3,157]

I'll be kind and give you a choice... Sammiches or vacuum cleaner. You are not allowed to judge all of us white, racist, xenophobic, black-killing middle-aged men tonight. You KNOW we have been over this hundreds of times.

Truth is, bcking, there are tragic murders on ALL sides... Whites killing blacks, blacks killing whites, cops killing people, people killing cops. But one simply CANNOT lump them all together. Trayvon Martin is different from Freddie Gray, is different from Charles Kinsey, is different from Michael Brown. They are all unique and individual cases. And I have just listed the minorities who got shot, not the white ones.

Here's the deal, according to ME... There are good and there are bad cops. They have a tough job, keeping the peace. It is unfair for citizens to sit in the safety of their living rooms or bed rooms and judge whether a cop was justified in pulling their triggers. "Don't judge until you have walked a mile in their moccasins" or something close to that. When a second or two is often the difference between life and death, sometimes mistakes are made.

And to be clear, I am NOT making blanket excuses for cops. There are bad cops out there. Racist cops. Cops who don't feel bad about taking a life. We have all seen it. The young black kid in the gazebo who had a toy gun and cops charged in like crazy and shot him. Charles Kinsey (I still think his shooter deserves jail time). And many more I cannot name. But I also recognize that SOME of the killing or shooting of unarmed people happen in the heat of the moment, and some latitude needs to be given.

Again, I encourage you to ignore the news sites and blogs or forums. Look at the raw stats like FBI, DOJ, CDC, etc. And while you are doing that, and it appears at first that America is full of gun-toting cowboys just waiting to shoot someone, look at the per capita killings, as well as the number of guns in America compared to the number of murders.

And then of course there is the very real issue of leading causes of death in the US... Homicide by firearm is like #107 on the list. Not saying it's not an issue, but there are so many more ways that people die than by guns that are just glossed over.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_05.pdf

Not sure if this entire thing is directed at me. If so, you need to chill out a bit man.

I have never once, nor would never, call you or anyone here for that matter a "white racist xenophobic black-killing middle aged man" or whatever. That is not how I operate and I really don't see how any of my posts have made you assume that.

Furthermore, I also don't see how any of my posts would make you think that I don't think all murders are tragic. I'm a physician and while I don't work in the ED anymore, I have in the past and I've seen first hand the outcome of murders. They are all tragic. I've never suggested anything to contrary.

Furthermore again, I have never said or suggested anything to say that there aren't good cops and bad cops. Where are you getting these assumptions from?

Again maybe you weren't directing that entire post at me but if you are, I don't understand how you can make so many assumptions based on nothing? Since this thread started discussing gun violence to my knowledge I've only essentially posted a question asking about numbers of killings because I didn't actually know myself, and then provided a link to the Washington Post's database. I then proceeded to make a couple of observations. Was it my observations that make you assume all that about me? While I completely agree with so much of what you say (about murders, good/bad cops etc...) I do believe that bad cops and innocent killings effect black people disproportionately. I think most of the stats support that. That's not saying that every single time a person is shot and the person is black then the cop is a racist. Sometimes it has to happen, and cops need to protect themselves. But I do think that there is a disproportionately larger number of victims in the black community. That doesn't mean that I think gun owners are all racists and whatever else you assume I believe so take a step back a bit.

I'm happy to continue having civil discussions about things but if you are going to resort to blatant and baseless assumptions then this is pointless.

[Dakine10 5,452]

You are, of course, quite wrong about this, Dakine. I have read blanket statements here on VJ, as well as all over FB, quite often. Got rather old, in fact. It's just an attempt to put down those who support Trump, even if the folks saying it know nothing about those to whom they were referring.

I'm not wrong and if I ask you for examples of this, my guess is you'll come up swinging. I'm not talking about isolated incidents, but show me this widespread abuse and insults coming at you from Liberals, as a few have now suggested.

If we pick a random political themed article from a non partisan site where un-moderated comments are allowed, neither of us should have any doubt where most of the abusive comments are coming from.

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

you're talking to someone who doesn't see the big deal about stop and frisk and will pretty much ALWAYS find some way to justify fatal police shootings. if tamir rice's murder can be justified by the cehst crowd, then you know that even total innocence but 'black so possibly dangerous' interaction warrants execution by cop.

Actually i am totally against stop and frisk and i think it is abhorrently unconstitutional . But please do continue telling everyone what I think. Its not that your wrong all the time is just that there is so much you know that aint true

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Dude, relax. If I was directing it at you, I would have quoted you or made sure it was directed at you, and there would be NO DOUBT I was talking to you. The person to whom it was directed knows full well who she is.

I recommend if you want to debate another topic such as crimes against blacks, you start a new topic and we can talk about it there. This topic is about draining the ditch.

Not sure if this entire thing is directed at me. If so, you need to chill out a bit man.

Edited November 11, 2016 by LFEHFN

[bcking 3,157]

Dude, relax. If I was directing it at you, I would have quoted you or made sure it was directed at you, and there would be NO DOUBT I was talking to you. The person to whom it was directed knows full well who she is.

I recommend if you want to debate another topic such as crimes against blacks, you start a new topic and we can talk about it there. This topic is about draining the ditch.

This is either selective amnesia, or you miss a lot here. Open your eyes, Sir. It's here.

Your second paragraph named me directly. Apologies for being unsure which part was for me and which was for him/her. It wasn't clearly divided up.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

This is either selective amnesia, or you miss a lot here. Open your eyes, Sir. It's here.

I'm not wrong and if I ask you for examples of this, my guess is you'll come up swinging. I'm not talking about isolated incidents, but show me this widespread abuse and insults coming at you from Liberals, as a few have now suggested.

If we pick a random political themed article from a non partisan site where un-moderated comments are allowed, neither of us should have any doubt where most of the abusive comments are coming from.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Yes, the second part was for you. If I drifted back to Val, and offended you somehow, I apologize. But as I suggested above, if you want to talk crime stats, start a new thread. Or just search the forums. As I said elsewhere, there are at least a hundred threads on the subject. You are new here, so don't know the past discussions we have had on the subject. Also, though CEHST is rampant on off topic postings, technically the rules say not to do so. Mods will choose when/if you have done so and close a thread or thread ban you. Mood dependent.

Your second paragraph named me directly. Apologies for being unsure which part was for me and which was for him/her. It wasn't clearly divided up.

[bcking 3,157]

Yes, the second part was for you. If I drifted back to Val, and offended you somehow, I apologize. But as I suggested above, if you want to talk crime stats, start a new thread. Or just search the forums. As I said elsewhere, there are at least a hundred threads on the subject. You are new here, so don't know the past discussions we have had on the subject. Also, though CEHST is rampant on off topic postings, technically the rules say not to do so. Mods will choose when/if you have done so and close a thread or thread ban you. Mood dependent.

Sorry what is CEHST?

I didn't start the conversation about violent crime in this thread. I just jumped in at some point. Actually looking back the first person to mention a shooting on this thread was yourself. Then someone else brought up racism in shootings and then it snowballed.

Edited November 11, 2016 by bcking

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

CESHT is the very forum in which ye are posting. Are you drinking (heavily) tonight?

Some mistakenly call it CHEST. Either way, it is a place you shall come to love to hate. Like a moth to a flame...

Sorry what is CEHST?

I didn't start the conversation about violent crime in this thread. I just jumped in at some point. Actually looking back the first person to mention a shooting on this thread was yourself. Then someone else brought up racism in shootings and then it snowballed.

[bcking 3,157]

Oh haha didn't notice the acronym fit.

Ya I only came in here after the election because I was curious what people going through the immigration process thought. My wife was afraid it would effect her, but we are already at the NVC stage waiting for our case to be complete so she will likely/hopefully be essentially through by January, or at least by the time Trump has time to make any major changes. Not to mention she is immigrating from the UK which is not really the kind of place he is going to target.

[Dakine10 5,452]

This is either selective amnesia, or you miss a lot here. Open your eyes, Sir. It's here.

My memory is pretty good actually. Not that I read every post or thread, but if you want to challenge my memory on something you probably want to brush up on it first.

I do recall the ugliest most defamatory anti Islam image I've ever seen on this site being posted by you. That late night post lasted about 5 minutes so maybe a lot of people didn't get to see it. You can deny it if you want, but if someone called you racist, I'd like to see what you posted first. Perhaps you had it coming.

I'll say again though, if there was a blanket statement saying all Trump supporters were racist, it was a rare event. If it was a small number if people saying it over and over, that doesn't translate into 'many Liberals'. If you are saying this was more than a rare or isolated incident I don't believe you. If it was more common than that, you would have less allegation and more substantiation.