Abortion Discussion [split topic]

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Depends on whom you're asking. I wouldn't suggest asking your wife. Look what happened to Bill once HIS wife got involved...

is promiscuous sex supposed to be a bad thing ?

Edited November 4, 2016 by LFEHFN

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Well shucks, I guess we will have to just agree not to answer one another's questions then.

You're doing a lot of dancing here Dave, my question was pretty straight forward. I'm not getting into the "when it becomes murder" argument, because I believe that is up to the woman who is carrying the baby, not you or I.

Again I ask. If a woman who cannot afford to have a baby becomes pregnant, are you okay with supporting that Mother and baby on welfare for as long as it takes for them to become self supportive rather than the Mother choosing to have an abortion?

To some I guess.

[Teddy B 17,252]

Well shucks, I guess we will have to just agree not to answer one another's questions then.

This isn't the Dave gets to choose the parameters for discussion forum. If you want to carry on like a tool, do it with someone else.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

You answered my question with a question. A form of deflection. Also a form of being a tool. Welcome to VJ, where it abounds.

I was attempting to continue the discussion with Yuna because he/she at least presents cogent thoughts on the subject. Feel free to join or abstain, but don't expect answers if you're not willing to give them.

This isn't the Dave gets to choose the parameters for discussion forum. If you want to carry on like a tool, do it with someone else.

[Teddy B 17,252]

You answered my question with a question. A form of deflection. Also a form of being a tool. Welcome to VJ, where it abounds.

I was attempting to continue the discussion with Yuna because he/she at least presents cogent thoughts on the subject. Feel free to join or abstain, but don't expect answers if you're not willing to give them.

Wrong. I answered your question with MY answer: I'm not getting into the "when it becomes murder" argument, because I believe that is up to the woman who is carrying the baby, not you or I. There is no question in that answer, it's what my beliefs are.

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

i'm going on about promiscuity, personally. i really want to know how we legislate what constitutes careless sex. i can only get a real answer from the man® and apparently i'm too rough for him.

Careless sex usually involves alcohol ND regrets

[smilesammich 10,727]

Careless sex usually involves alcohol ND regrets

so long as you can prove it was careless, in case of pregnancy.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

I have provided quotes and time stamps for you to see how you answered my question with another question. Then you deflected the second time with a non-answer to avoid a slippery slope.

In an effort to curtail further silliness, even though this is WAY off topic... No, I am not ok with supporting the needs of the poor mother and her child. But I will most likely be forced to, either by paying for a portion of an abortion she cannot afford, or by welfare for them. The first option is certainly the cheaper one (at $500-$3000 per abortion, depending on term and location).

It's a tough call... Do we reward the regrets of careless sex with paid-for abortions? Is the mother expected to pay for it all herself? Does the father have to pitch in for the cost of the abortion? How late into a term does the mother get to make her choice?

And you are wrong... Deciding on when it becomes murder is NOT the choice of the mother. There have to be laws in place to handle that issue. Otherwise, you'd have moms killing their teens (justifiable homicide) just because they are the mother.

If you are a religious person, then I guess your thoughts on abortion may stem from your religion. I don't consider myself a religious person, so my thoughts on abortion don't have anything to do with religion.

However, at some point, pro-choice for all instances becomes murder. Just trying to establish where that point is. I'm sure it's different for everyone, but it has to exist.

If a woman who cannot afford to have a baby becomes pregnant, are you okay with supporting that Mother and baby on welfare for as long as it takes for them to become self supportive rather than the Mother choosing to have an abortion?

Again I ask... At what point does it become murder? 3 weeks? 3 months? Any point prior to delivery? Within 3 months after delivery, when the new mother (or parents) realize what a needy human being they have brought into the world, and how much it will change their lives?

You're doing a lot of dancing here Dave, my question was pretty straight forward. I'm not getting into the "when it becomes murder" argument, because I believe that is up to the woman who is carrying the baby, not you or I.

Again I ask. If a woman who cannot afford to have a baby becomes pregnant, are you okay with supporting that Mother and baby on welfare for as long as it takes for them to become self supportive rather than the Mother choosing to have an abortion?

To some I guess.

[smilesammich 10,727]

if you can answer my most important question mr time stamp, i'll give you a

Do we reward the regrets of careless sex with paid-for abortions?

get outta here..smh

Edited November 4, 2016 by smilesammich

[Teddy B 17,252]

I have provided quotes and time stamps for you to see how you answered my question with another question. Then you deflected the second time with a non-answer to avoid a slippery slope.

In an effort to curtail further silliness, even though this is WAY off topic... No, I am not ok with supporting the needs of the poor mother and her child. But I will most likely be forced to, either by paying for a portion of an abortion she cannot afford, or by welfare for them. The first option is certainly the cheaper one (at $500-$3000 per abortion, depending on term and location).

It's a tough call... Do we reward the regrets of careless sex with paid-for abortions? Is the mother expected to pay for it all herself? Does the father have to pitch in for the cost of the abortion? How late into a term does the mother get to make her choice?

And you are wrong... Deciding on when it becomes murder is NOT the choice of the mother. There have to be laws in place to handle that issue. Otherwise, you'd have moms killing their teens (justifiable homicide) just because they are the mother.

Reading words is hard. My question to you had nothing to do with the content of your post about religion, nothing in my question relates to that. I simply quoted you so you knew my question was addressed to you.

So you're not okay with supporting a woman and her child after you take away her option for aborting that child? You would force a woman to have a baby she cannot afford and does not want, then throw her and her baby to the wolves after she gives birth. That's pretty cold and screwed up Dave and that's why men and anti-abortion folks need to mind their own business. Do you think this is going to teach the mother a lesson in some warped way? Or do you think it would lead to a lifetime of trouble and hardships for the mother and the child? The woman is the one who carries the baby. The woman is the one who will be responsible for that baby should she choose to have it. It should be the woman's choice as to how this scenario plays out. And it most certainly shouldn't be left up to men who have no idea what it's like to carry a child and face these tough decisions.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Sorry you have a hard time reading. There are free classes online that can help you with that.

You're missing the point, Teddy. I said I am pro-choice, within reason. There are good reasons to abort, and I support them. But based on what you are saying, any pregnant woman can choose to abort at any time, for any reason, just because she is the vessel. What if the father wants to keep the kid and raise it alone? It's half his, right? Not all fathers are irresponsible DBs.

So what's YOUR personal limit for abortion being ok? Anytime, anywhere? Whether or not you care to walk the slippery slope with me, there has to be a limit. Day zero until... 3 months? 6? 9? 15? When is the mother no longer allowed to make the decision to kill her child? At what point does it go from abortion to murder? It's a tough call, not sure I would want to make it, and for sure, every situation is going to be different. I mean, what if a woman is raped, and doesn't know she's pregnant, then delivers? I wouldn't want her to be responsible for the upbringing of a rape baby, would you?

Reading words is hard. My question to you had nothing to do with the content of your post about religion, nothing in my question relates to that. I simply quoted you so you knew my question was addressed to you.

So you're not okay with supporting a woman and her child after you take away her option for aborting that child? You would force a woman to have a baby she cannot afford and does not want, then throw her and her baby to the wolves after she gives birth. That's pretty cold and screwed up Dave and that's why men and anti-abortion folks need to mind their own business. Do you think this is going to teach the mother a lesson in some warped way? Or do you think it would lead to a lifetime of trouble and hardships for the mother and the child? The woman is the one who carries the baby. The woman is the one who will be responsible for that baby should she choose to have it. It should be the woman's choice as to how this scenario plays out. And it most certainly shouldn't be left up to men who have no idea what it's like to carry a child and face these tough decisions.

[smilesammich 10,727]

i'm prochoice and i personally doubt i would choose to abort a rape baby. but i have no business telling others what to do with their rape babies. see how easy that is? rape babies smh.

sorry, i realize men are talking lefhfn. i'll show myself out.

[Teddy B 17,252]

Sorry you have a hard time reading. There are free classes online that can help you with that.

You're missing the point, Teddy. I said I am pro-choice, within reason. There are good reasons to abort, and I support them. But based on what you are saying, any pregnant woman can choose to abort at any time, for any reason, just because she is the vessel. What if the father wants to keep the kid and raise it alone? It's half his, right? Not all fathers are irresponsible DBs.

So what's YOUR personal limit for abortion being ok? Anytime, anywhere? Whether or not you care to walk the slippery slope with me, there has to be a limit. Day zero until... 3 months? 6? 9? 15? When is the mother no longer allowed to make the decision to kill her child? At what point does it go from abortion to murder? It's a tough call, not sure I would want to make it, and for sure, every situation is going to be different. I mean, what if a woman is raped, and doesn't know she's pregnant, then delivers? I wouldn't want her to be responsible for the upbringing of a rape baby, would you?

You're not pro choice. Denying a woman that can't afford or doesn't want a baby, the option of an abortion, is not pro-choice. It's pro whatever Dave wants.

If the mother doesn't want to carry the baby, the father can find another woman who does. The baby is not half his until it is actually born.

I already gave you my answer on the "limit", it's up to the woman carrying the baby. She is the one who will have to live with her decision, not you or I.

As for your scenario of the "rape baby", the woman could put her child up for adoption in that case, if she chooses to do so.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Teddy B

[Teddy B 17,252]

i'm prochoice and i personally doubt i would choose to abort a rape baby. but i have no business telling others what to do with their rape babies. see how easy that is? rape babies smh.

sorry, i realize men are talking lefhfn. i'll show myself out.

The bold is what true pro-choice is. Anything else is selective choice.

I did not mean to derail your conversation Val, my apologies.

[yuna628 9,676]

Ok Yuna, let's leave religion out of it for a moment, cuz I am not sure if that matters. But at what point does abortion become murder? What is the defining line for you?

Okay, if you'd like me to address your question, I would hope that you could address the other questions raised by members here. Regardless of if you like conversing with those members, they did ask legit questions to this line of discussion.

Now, to be fair it's hard to leave religion out of the equation. Because those on the forefront of restricting a woman's right to choose runs the gamut to common sense all the way to abolishment and locking a woman in jail for murder... and those people are from a host of religious groups and positions. Pro-life advocates that are strictly atheist or humanist are a rarity, but in research they do exist. Do any of you, though not inherently religious as you might claim, believe in God? Because there can be non-religious people (in fact this number is growing) but still hold a belief in God or deity, fate, or some sort of Biblical-style morality. That morality, especially in how they were raised about the world around them may shape their beliefs when it comes to the concept of when life begins. It's a question that's been going on for ages you know, examined by some of the best theologians of old. It kind of got to be a big thing during the time of Martin Luther, because there was always a concern in the Catholic church about when life began, and what to do regarding baptism, or infants who died in the womb or at birth. At what point does a person have a soul, and when was the appropriate time that soul could be innocent and blameless. I won't go into the bigger details of this, but this is still one of the fundamental arguments when it comes to abortion today and it's been hijacked by political operatives seeking to cause great damage. When is a fetus a baby? When is a baby a person? Is a lump of tissue, not having brain function a person? Is the moment of conception a person? Are the egg and sperm virtual persons? Yes these are the questions the religious of that era wrestled with and those of this era do too. Historically speaking there is not a lot said in the Bible about this subject, and it has led (as it often does in religion) for men to invent their own contexts (never really a good thing to do). These days you have Christians that believe all abortion is murder (even in cases of rape, incest, and threat to the mother), and those who include the ''morning after pill'' into this mix. And you have Christians that believe abortion is murder with some exceptions to the rule. But stuck into this mix per say, are those Christians who believe protection and birth control is an affront and that you should pop out as many babies as you can (an old Monty Python sketch comes to mind here). And whether you do or don't agree with some or all aspects of the other Christians above, it's these individuals who actually make the problem of abortion worse.

If Christians want to stop abortion, the best way is through knowledge and having the best tools available ensure couples have responsible planning for their sex lives. Contraceptive methods, rape awareness, raising responsible children instead of never explaining to them about sex or supporting them would go a long way. If young women knew they had a support system, I feel they would be less likely to choose an abortion in your ''promiscuity oopsie'' scenario. If we raised young men to take care of the women they choose to partner with. I don't feel young women choose an abortion as a 'quick fix' and if any small percentage do it is largely because they had no education about sex or support from the family to begin with. There's often going to be a lot of other compound factors going on in your scenario. The church and 'good Christians' tell women that children are a near sacred thing, but then abandons them in the trash-heap of sins when they produce one, Scarlet Letter style. It is no wonder in days of old, that desperate women sought abortions in the black market, at extreme risk to their lives. These were not just young ladies who were fooling around, but women who were raped, and women who were married (having already a ton of church sanctioned children of their own with barely money to feed those mouths as it was). Some Christians, politicians especially, don't seem to have an really good grasp on the importance of birth control used for medical reasons either, and individuals like Pence who goes whole hog into 'personhood' (the idea that all eggs are persons!), caused a furor over his desire to restrict even that, fails to realize that women do have medical reasons and require access to those medications and not because they are 'slutty'. In general more and more women are actually needing to rely on birth control for those medical purposes, as the public becomes more unhealthy overall and other conditions may be related.

So to answer your question of when does abortion become murder you'd have to define what constitutes when life physically begins. When do you become you? Does it begin when the brain is fully formed? Does it begin when the baby breathes air outside the womb? Does it begin whenever a soul is formed, a process we know nothing about? Or does it begin at the moment of conception? Every sect of religion may have a different answer. Even a fertilized egg may be expelled during a 'normal cycle' without a woman's knowledge, and thus the potential baby is never formed. Until this is defined the question of abortion is murder is rather a slippery slope. 90% I believe are abortions that are had fairly soon into pregnancy, and those having abortions later into pregnancy seem to be rarities of which specific criteria has to fit. But if you want to define abortions as murder, what makes one more acceptable and another less acceptable to you? If you believe that abortions from rape, incest, and medical reasons are okay.. or even if the couple is married okay, how does it make it any less ''murdery'' (if that's how you want to define it)? Because once you link abortion with murder, you can't un-murder under specific circumstances. If you shoot and kill someone who tries to kill you, you have still killed someone. You may have defended yourself, but it doesn't negate the fact you killed someone before they killed you. If a woman has a miscarriage due to suffering some great emotional stress, has she murdered her own baby or did God murder it? Does a morning after pill taken 24-48hrs after an oopsie constitute murder? Well, to some it seems that way. In Exodus and Numbers I think it's very clear at least, that the Biblical moral laws of the era (of which Christianity attempts and badly fails to draw from) gives clear answer that 'abortion' was not an issue bogged down in theological quandaries and could even be sanctioned in many cases and thus I'd side with that outlook on the moral issue. If an abortion must be carried out because of risk to the mother and is a later term one, is it more of a murder or less of a murder? A word so strong as murder cannot have exceptions here. How do you feel about pulling the plug on the brain dead or those who don't appear that they will recover? Or putting man's best friend to sleep to ease 'suffering'?

This is again why I say a woman's right to choose is a woman's right to choose. It is difficult and agonizing, and yes a woman may have regrets either way. You do not get a say, because who are you to judge? It's a decision she must make between her family, herself, her s/o, her god if she has one, and her doctor. The church and government restricting this is damaging to essential liberty just as much as a government that demands a family only have one child and forcibly abort the rest. By the way, my own mother had to make the decision not to ''murder-abort'' me at great risk to herself. I'm obviously alive so that's cool, but I wouldn't blame her in the slightest if she had decided differently.

Btw, this thread has evolved into a vastly different subject than the title, could it be split somehow? We're far from the latest screaming about Hillary emails and the FBI.

Edited November 4, 2016 by yuna628