Converting to Islam

[Sofiyya 1,687]

PS - It wasn't my intention to be glib, doodle. I didn't want to ignore you, but I'm not sure what to say to make it simpler than what I already said.

[Captain Ewok 1,871]

We should be all make sure to be open to cultures and laguages of thw world and accept that differences of opinions will and always do present themselves. I think the best thing in those situations you can do is to try and set your own predispotions aside and to listen to what people have to say. Aftwards you can always give your opinion but you should never expect that the other side will accept it any easier than they did yours. It is a slow process but accepting that there will be differences is key. I hope this topic can remain peaceful and open to many different perspectives .

[Henia 11]

I've asked this question before and this question has been asked by many. When we ask a scholar a question and if we receive an answer that we don't particularly like than it's our decision what to do with it from there, however, no myths are being perpetuated. A ruling is made if it is referred to in a verse, in a hadith, or through `igma3 which is the consensus of the scholars that studied the quran & hadith. In the book fiqh al-sunnah in the volume that discusses the requirements of salat or prayer, it lists all the requirements of prayer, such as removal of filth, facing the qiblah, etc.......one of the requirements listed is that the recitation be done in Arabic. I have these volumes and I looked it up & it is there. The reasons given are many but the one that was mentioned first & that the consensus is based on is that the Prophet, when people asked him how should we pray, replied, "Pray like you see me praying."

But it is undersood that for most people whose first language is not Arabic it will take some time until they learn the verses and of course God is merciful and does not burden a soul with more than it can bear and so the prayer should be done in translation until they can learn the verses.....just as with children....because it will take time to learn. It did mention and it is always comforting to know that those who are trying & find it harder & perhaps are stumbling over words actually get double the reward than someone who finds the language easy. Someone who finds the language easy gets the reward for praying. Someone who finds it hard gets double, a reward for praying and a reward for trying.....I think that's fair........how could that not be fair?

Bismillah. Salaam and thank you very much, m&n, for your prompt and concise answer to the question posed. However, and with all due respect, it does not cite Quran nor Sunnah, the elements needed to make a ruling binding. Merely being mentioned in a list in a book of fiqh does not mean that the element is of the sharia, only that the element is of fiqh.

With all due respect, I own books of classical fiqh, but have also intently learned about the history of their development, their level of authority and how it was obtained, and the context in which they are to be used, among other issues.

First, one must understand the sharp and important differences between fiqh and sharia. Unlike sharia, which cannot be debated, fiqh, in and of itself, is not divine, and can be debated, even if ijima exists, for ijima and fiqh are mortal constructs not to supercede the divinity of God's law.

It was fervently acknowledged by the great imams of the major schools of thought that their determinations were not only fallible, debatable and changeable, but, to be challenged if necessary, for they were not God, could do only their best in determining His Will in matters he did not dictate directly, and were liable to err. In fact, their rulings on similar matters varied from society to society in order to address the norms and needs of that particular society. That is why the existence of more than one school of thought, coming to differing conclusions has never been vexing for Muslim scholars.

In fiqh, sharia is an aspect of fiqh determinations, it is not the only one. Other considerations are included, including, but not limited to, tradition, precedent, politics, geography, history, ethnicity, and patriarchy, all varying from place to place.

So, why has Arabic been determined in fiqh to be the only language allowable for the obligatory prayers, and is the determination a preference or a requirement sanctioned by Allah?

The language of prayer is one of the issues that Allah did not address directly, and the scholars wrestled with it in the face of differing languages in different societies where Islam spread. In fact, re the issue, Iman Hanifa, the scholar to whom is often referred when discussing the "requirement" to recite prayers in Arabic, changed his mind. At first, he declared that Arabic was NOT required for the mandatory 5 prayers. Later, he decided that it was. This is how man makes decisions about God's requirements, not how God makes decisions about His requirements.

We have the issue of precedent, which is extremely important in fiqh determinations; the ages old precedent of how the prophets and messengers prior to Muhammad (pbuh) addressed Allah (saws) and how they taught the believers among them in their own languages, and that their praise and worship of God was accepted. The Quran addresses the use of Arabic approximately 11 times, saying that the Message is revealed in Arabic so that it may be well understood by those who care to gain wisdom. It also acknowledges that it is a confirmation of prior scriptures, specifically that of Musa, who did not teach in Arabic. The Quran also says that we are never to rank the prophets, for that is the duty of God. That Muhammad taught and prayed in Arabic is not a directive for all of us to pray in Arabic. He prayed in Arabic because that is the only language he knew, not because it was the only language Allah will accept. When he said, "Pray as you see me pray", he was not referring to the concept that the Message is lost in a transliteration. The precedent of the earlier prophets and messengers teaching with the guidance of Allah in languages other than Arabic denies that assertion.

Being that Islam was revealed for centuries in other languages prior to Arabic, it is totally incorrect to say that Arabic is the original language of Islam and the divine language of Islam, as some answers to this question have maintained. It is neither original nor divine. All languages belong to Allah and He understands every one of them. So, we come to the issue of Islam in other languages.

The Prophet taught only in Arabic, but Muslims today do not. Islam is learned in a myriad of languages requiring interpretation. The intensity and breadth of learning is limited only by the desire of the student. Variations in language have not been a burden upon the spread of the faith, nor in the ability of Muslims, most of whom do not converse in Arabic, to become faithful Mu'min. The argument that prayers in Arabic only maintain the exact meaning of the prayer is a fallacious one in light of how the rest of the meaning is transmitted every day, worldwide. Among Muslims who pray proficiently in Arabic exist those who trade slaves, kill innocents, and commit other depravities in God's Name. Prayer in Arabic alone does not convey an understanding of the true nature of God nor His intent for us as a people.

I am a native Arabic speaker and I have never had to struggle to learn the prayers in Arabic. With all due respect, I do not believe that I am rewarded for praying in Arabic. There is no foundation for believing that, in fact, I belieev that is a ethno-chauvinist notion. I also do not believe that a requirement for prayer in Arabic can be deduced from fiqh, although a desire for it being a binding factor within the ummah may be derived from study. Fiqh is allowed to take into consideration the interest of the ummah, large and small. The brotherhood of prayer may be found in reciting the obligatory prayers in one language, but there is no sin in not always reciting prayer in Arabic.

Reliance on fiqh to discern requirements for any aspect of Islam can become a trap when not used properly. Ijima is a tool and scholars our helpers, but our practices are to be our own burden, not theirs. If one relies on fiqh, one also has a great responsibility to understand beyond what is behind the rulings.

For example, if one makes the claim that classical fiqh is composed of the Sunnah of Allah and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad, that ijima rules, and therefore, 5 mandatory prayers can only be recited in Arabic, then one must rely on all things ijima. That would lead you to also declare that every couple on this board consisting of a Muslim man and a non-Muslim woman living or intending to live together in the west is going against the law. Classical fiqh has also determined that for a Muslim man to take a non-Muslim wife and live with her in a non-Muslim country is committing a reprehensible act in defiance of God's Will. To be consistent, one will have to assert all things ijima as the best practice and in the best interest of the ummah, meaning that one will also need to believe that.

I am not saying that you are unwilling to do that, m&n, but I have not seen you broach that subject on a board where the majority have been willfully breaking such a law for years, although it is a matter of classical fiqh law. We don't often do that, for it is difficult to uphold such decisions in personal matters among friends who are in defiance of it. I only present it as an example of how asserting fiqh without proper examination of the law, and without full knowledge of how it is to be applied can lead to holes in our claims, or a hesitancy to assert it in challenge to all claims that are in opposition to fiqh law.

When we ask a scholar a question and if we receive an answer that we don't particularly like than it's our decision what to do with it from there, and that is so true. But, it is up to us to learn more about how the scholar has formed the answer, how it applies in the particular circumstances involving us and if the answer is even correct and/or binding before we assert the answer to others. If prayer in Arabic is binding based on fiqh and ijima, and fiqh and ijima are based on sharia, and that is why we believe it to be required, then we cannot, in good conscious, assert one requirement in fiqh and not others, can we?

holy #######...maybe arabic is the language of preference 'cause it's shorter! I didn't understand one word you just said. I like to keep things simple.

Esalaamu Aleikum that is why the first word revealed was 'read' so we could educate ourselves about things not known to us. If you cannot get a hold of any books, then as another VJ member's signature suggests: Google is your friend! Use it!

Edited April 2, 2007 by Henia

[peezey 0]

holy #######...maybe arabic is the language of preference 'cause it's shorter! I didn't understand one word you just said. I like to keep things simple.

ay, this insistence on "simplicity" reminds me of the pray on your period conversation a while back.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Peezy, is there a shift in the cosmos, lately? You and I are agreeing on things!

Thanks, Capt'n!

Good advice, Henia! Thanks!

[m&n 0]

It really is quite simple. It was explained to me that the prayer is performed in one language so that no matter where you are in the world, if you enter a mosque, you will be able to pray alongside another person in a congregation. Prayer in a congregation was meant to signify unity and, although our native tongues are different, our skin color is different, etc. people from all races & ethnicities could pray together wherever they are and this could only be done in a common language. The person who has the right to lead a congregational prayer is he who has the most Quran memorized. Millions of people from all over the world travel every year to perform the pilgrimage in Makkah and gather to be united and pray together and there is one Imam who leads the prayer in one language. The minimal amount of verses that one needs to learn to pray are not a lot and, until one is able to learn them, it is understood that one can use translations or transliterations etc. for help.....we shouldn't make it difficult on ourselves.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

So, as I said, it is customary and perferred for the unity of the ummah, brotherhood and all that. But, it doesn't make it required. Required would be mandatory and, at the very least, mukruh (disliked), if not done in Arabic. Since it is not required, there is an element of discretion involved.

Bottom line: Praying in Arabic is not required, is not mukruh, but simply customary and prefered. Newbies have not to worry about conducting their obligatory prayers in their native language. Allah did indeed not make things difficult for the faithful.

Edited April 2, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[doodlebug 3]

Esalaamu Aleikum that is why the first word revealed was 'read' so we could educate ourselves about things not known to us. If you cannot get a hold of any books, then as another VJ member's signature suggests: Google is your friend! Use it!

No need to be rude, Henia. I read just fine thankyouverymuch. Just so happens that all of the things *I* read tend to totally go against whatever GEG tends to say.

So you are in agreement, Henia, that we can say our Salat in whatever the heck language suits our fancy?

My usual is usually right.

That is your *opinion* and as the Cap'n has gently reminded....we should respect each other's opinion.

Thanks Cap'n!

[ya falaha! 0]

Where was Henia being rude?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Esalaamu Aleikum that is why the first word revealed was 'read' so we could educate ourselves about things not known to us. If you cannot get a hold of any books, then as another VJ member's signature suggests: Google is your friend! Use it!

No need to be rude, Henia. I read just fine thankyouverymuch. Just so happens that all of the things *I* read tend to totally go against whatever GEG tends to say.

So you are in agreement, Henia, that we can say our Salat in whatever the heck language suits our fancy?

My usual is usually right.

That is your *opinion* and as the Cap'n has gently reminded....we should respect each other's opinion.

Thanks Cap'n!

You didn't even UNDERSTAND what I said, so how do you know that what you read goes against it? BTW, I know I'm right. This is not a question of theology. I have no need to respect the opinion if it stinks, just the person even when they're wrong. You didn't do that yourself, doodle, so why criticize others?

And, yea, Henia was not rude at all.

Edited April 2, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[m&n 0]

Why must we complicate things?

[doodlebug 3]

Where was Henia being rude?

Telling me to "read" and that "google is my friend".

Whatever. Apparently being rude is the norm on this board these days.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Why must we complicate things?

That's what I was saying when I said praying in Arabic was not required. Requiring it when it's not mandatory complicates things.

Edited April 2, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Ban Hammer 13,110]

Where was Henia being rude?

Telling me to "read" and that "google is my friend".

Whatever. Apparently being rude is the norm on this board these days.

actually, it's quite tame compared to about 6 months ago.

[ya falaha! 0]

She was stating that the first word in the Quran was "read". She wasn't telling you specifically to use Google...she was giving a general advice to those who don't have reading materials on Islam. I didn't see her being rude at all. I think you're being a bit sensitive.

Where was Henia being rude?

Telling me to "read" and that "google is my friend".

Whatever. Apparently being rude is the norm on this board these days.