A month from now, 50 million Americans will vote for Trump

[ILikeBread 43]

I'll take 12 weeks in a heartbeat(no pun intended).

The sad thing is though in the US, they couldn't even get a 20 week ban passed, because of the democrats.

I believe that the limit is decided by the states themselves, no?

In that case it is more complicated than just a partisan thing.

The on going war against planned parenthood is a terrible thing.

Speaking with an economically conservative voice it will lead to more unwanted pregnancies in families not ready for it and ultimately the tax payers will foot the bill through welfare.

But more than that it's just sad and wrong to deny women access to health. Especially as opponents hide behind their conscience to do that.

[yuna628 9,676]

I agree.

The point is, I don't think you'll find a single conservative whose main motivation for wanting to overturn Roe v. Wade is to infringe upon women's rights. If you genuinely believe that human life begins at the moment of conception, then you're fighting a good cause by wanting to overturn Roe v.s Wade. If people were legally murdering 5 year-olds, I would protest it (to say the very least). It would matter very little to me if people told me I was "infringing on their rights" or if it prevented other nasty stuff. So if you believe human life begins at conception, then it (rightfully) matters very little if someone accuses you of infringing on women's rights or if the alternative can cause more harm. Killing children is an absolute no no and not up for discussion.

So while I disagree with the foundation for pro-life advocates' positions, I'm willing to concede that they're generally great people. The way to protect Roe v. Wade is through education, treating it as the ethical dilemma it is and respect for other people's opinions - Not accusing them of being misogynistic extremists, which I see people on my side do far too often.

Really? Because there's plenty of those conservatives out there and it's one of their motivations. It's always of a fundamentalist or peculiar evangelical variety, but they do indeed exist. These types seemingly believe that women having rights is not a part of the God plan, that men are the decision makers in all things, things were much closer to being correct back in the old days, and that women achieving equality was all the start of a downward spiral into confused gender roles, children's 'training' going awry, unhappy marriages, LGBT.... you name it. Strip a woman of rights is a good thing, a part of restoring things back to the 'natural order' of Creation. Sometimes in these communities it is just a veiled overtone, some are proud of it, and others blindly have no idea.

I'm really depressed after reading this whole thread...

I'm not sure most people are against G. Johnson because he's pro-choice...I think it's because he just lacks charisma.

Say what you want about Hillary, but she has a presence. Trump obviously has some kind of chaotic charisma as well. Trump understands salesmanship and crowd manipulation. Hillary is obviously a master at politics (doesn't matter if you find her awful, she knows what she's doing) and the legacy of her husband during the prosperous 90's only bolsters this.

I think in addition to the third party candidates being pushed out by the mere fact that they are already on the fringes, the candidates just aren't charismatic enough to excite the masses. That's my take on it. But I totally agree that the masses of Trump supporters should not be ignored. In fact, it's a great opportunity to make a new third party and have third parties be taken more seriously. I wish Trump HAD run as third-party just for that fact. But I think Hillary actually preferred it this way, because it was inevitable that Trump would do something dumb/embarrassing and thus ensuring her victory.

As I've said I'd vote for Johnson if I agreed with him totally. The problem is he has stances on several things I can never agree with him on. His knowledge of the world at large comes off as ineffectual and dopey. He doesn't act serious. And what third party candidate actually can act too serious? They all know they'll never get enough votes to win, or are ever allowed to attend debates. It may have been more interesting with Trump as a third party - and it would have pushed third parties into something viable for the future (which is a shame on one hand because it would have taken a nutjob to achieve it). But ultimately Republicans made a deal with a devil, in a bid for power. The deal failed, and now the devil has destroyed the brand from within. Predictable and self inflicted.

[B_J 2,752]

So while I disagree with the foundation for pro-life advocates' positions, I'm willing to concede that they're generally great people. The way to protect Roe v. Wade is through education, treating it as the ethical dilemma it is and respect for other people's opinions - Not accusing them of being misogynistic extremists, which I see people on my side do far too often.

I'm sorry, this is VJ CHEST. You're not allowed to be open minded and try to see an opposing point of view. In fact, I believe it is against the TOS.

Reported.

[Jacque67 7,328]

#edukayshion.

[JayJayH 546]

Really? Because there's plenty of those conservatives out there and it's one of their motivations. It's always of a fundamentalist or peculiar evangelical variety, but they do indeed exist. These types seemingly believe that women having rights is not a part of the God plan, that men are the decision makers in all things, things were much closer to being correct back in the old days, and that women achieving equality was all the start of a downward spiral into confused gender roles, children's 'training' going awry, unhappy marriages, LGBT.... you name it. Strip a woman of rights is a good thing, a part of restoring things back to the 'natural order' of Creation. Sometimes in these communities it is just a veiled overtone, some are proud of it, and others blindly have no idea.

Really? Because I have never met a conservative anywhere who objects to women having any other form of surgery on the basis of wanting to infringe on their rights. The only objection I've seen has been surrounding abortion on the basis that you don't have the right to end the life of an unborn child - A completely just cause (I just disagree with attributing personhood in the first weeks of pregnancy).

Sure, I've encountered men who think a woman's place is in the kitchen. They're generally misguided and sometimes terrible people, but they're generally not opposed to womens' chemotherapy or brain surgery.

I'm sure there exists men out there in strange religions and sects who are against abortion on the sole basis that women should have no say in anything. But on the other side, you have feminists who insist that abortion should be legal up until the due date of the child, lest we cave to the patriarchy. Extremists exist on both ends, and more often than not, your opinion on something depends on which side of the extreme you feel has the upper hand. I'd hate to see us assume "most people" belong to either extreme.

Edited October 13, 2016 by JayJayH

[yuna628 9,676]

Really? Because I have never met a conservative anywhere who objects to women having any other form of surgery on the basis of wanting to infringe on their rights. The only objection I've seen has been surrounding abortion on the basis that you don't have the right to end the life of an unborn child - A completely just cause (I just disagree with attributing personhood in the first weeks of pregnancy).

Sure, I've encountered men who think a woman's place is in the kitchen. They're generally misguided and sometimes terrible people, but they're generally not opposed to womens' chemotherapy or brain surgery.

I'm sure there exists men out there in strange religions and sects who are against abortion on the sole basis that women should have no say in anything. But on the other side, you have feminists who insist that abortion should be legal up until the due date of the child, lest we cave to the patriarchy. Extremists exist on both ends, and more often than not, your opinion on something depends on which side of the extreme you feel has the upper hand. I'd hate to see us assume "most people" belong to either extreme.

The conservatives you've met and the conservatives I've met very much differ then. I didn't say all conservatives, I said a certain variety. How republicans wanted to frame that particular message to the collective at large was from a 'social justice' angle in an effort to oppose legislation involving those rights. Those SJWs you mention work both ways you know. I'm not talking about mere surgery, but again the point is that a woman should not have comparable access, freedom, and rights at all.

Men who think a woman's place is in the kitchen don't get a free pass excuse of merely 'misguided' souls to me. And men who are just like that, aren't exactly whom I'm referring to. If you haven't met or known or understood the types I'm referring to, fine. But they are there, and more numerous than you realize. You are constantly talking about how extremes an extremists have leeched into the liberal brand... but extremists have been an old pro at this in the evangelical brand from even beyond I can remember, and now politics. It's so permeated in the way it's purposefully constructed so that one cannot identify extreme from normal - especially in many of the conservative religious circles I'm familiar with.

[JayJayH 546]

The conservatives you've met and the conservatives I've met very much differ then. I didn't say all conservatives, I said a certain variety. How republicans wanted to frame that particular message to the collective at large was from a 'social justice' angle in an effort to oppose legislation involving those rights. Those SJWs you mention work both ways you know. I'm not talking about mere surgery, but again the point is that a woman should not have comparable access, freedom, and rights at all.

Men who think a woman's place is in the kitchen don't get a free pass excuse of merely 'misguided' souls to me. And men who are just like that, aren't exactly whom I'm referring to. If you haven't met or known or understood the types I'm referring to, fine. But they are there, and more numerous than you realize. You are constantly talking about how extremes an extremists have leeched into the liberal brand... but extremists have been an old pro at this in the evangelical brand from even beyond I can remember, and now politics. It's so permeated in the way it's purposefully constructed so that one cannot identify extreme from normal - especially in many of the conservative religious circles I'm familiar with.

I agree - The conservative brand was hijacked over a decade ago to replace "limited government" with "religion first." It sends a chill down my spine when I hear people say "I'm a Christian first, then an American." These are generally the same people who throw a fit when someone says "I'm a Muslim first, then an American." I tend to throw a fit when I hear either.

But I gave up on the religious right a long time ago. The GOP was hijacked and their brand driven into a big-government evangelical ditch.

My mission as a liberal is to prevent my own side from progressing into a regressive ditch. That's how we end up with Donald Trumps.

The political spectrum isn't a straight line from left to right. It's a horseshoe where the extremes of both sides end up in murky waters.

There isn't much difference between ideological ditches.

Whether you see the far right or the far left as a bigger threat probably depends on where you live. If you're in Arkansas, I'd assume the far right is more immediate. If you've spent most of your American life in California, the far left is far scarier.

Edited October 19, 2016 by JayJayH

[millefleur 5,046]

I agree - The conservative brand was hijacked over a decade ago to replace "limited government" with "religion first." It sends a chill down my spine when I hear people say "I'm a Christian first, then an American." These are generally the same people who throw a fit when someone says "I'm a Muslim first, then an American." I tend to throw a fit when I hear either.

But I gave up on the religious right a long time ago. The GOP was hijacked and their brand driven into a big-government evangelical ditch.

My mission as a liberal is to prevent my own side from progressing into a regressive ditch. That's how we end up with Donald Trumps.

The political spectrum isn't a straight line from left to right. It's a horseshoe where the extremes of both sides end up in murky waters.

There isn't much difference between ideological ditches.

Whether you see the far right or the far left as a bigger threat probably depends on where you live. If you're in Arkansas, I'd assume the far right is more immediate. If you've spent most of your American life in California, the far left is far scarier.

This. I'm from an old school Conservative family, but I don't support the Republicans. That said, at least I can see the logic in the "limited government" conservatives, but the crazy religious evangelical people scare me, and I'm from the Bible Belt/Deep South. It seems things have become a lot more polarized and extreme and it's really unsettling.

I don't mind if people hold traditional values, but forcing it everywhere into the government is insane. That's what's happening in Putin's Russia, he props up the church to make his image more righteous and says people are evil and immoral if they support "the decadent West"....it's really disturbing that the Republicans of today almost mirror this.

Edited October 19, 2016 by millefleur

[JayJayH 546]

This. I'm from an old school Conservative family, but I don't support the Republicans. That said, at least I can see the logic in the "limited government" conservatives, but the crazy religious evangelical people scare me, and I'm from the Bible Belt/Deep South. It seems things have become a lot more polarized and extreme and it's really unsettling.

I don't mind if people hold traditional values, but forcing it everywhere into the government is insane. That's what's happening in Putin's Russia, he props up the church to make his image more righteous and says people are evil and immoral if they support "the decadent West"....it's really disturbing that the Republicans of today almost mirror this.

Agreed. I think one of the scariest things about polarization is that it forces people into taking positions they otherwise wouldn't take. It's rare nowadays to see a Republican and a Democrat agree on anything at all, even positions where what separates people us are semantics. Deal making and compromise has turned into political baggage - The type of nastiness that'll get you voted out of office.

So instead, law making turns into a race against time where the goal is to ram as much unwanted legislation down people's throats as possible, while there is still time. That's where people lose trust. Over 75% of Americans believe partial birth abortions should be banned. So there is consensus. Over 75% Americans believe there should be some type of background check done before people can purchase a firearm. So there is consensus. There just isn't trust.

People are so scared of giving credence or credit to the other side, that they become even more partisan. As the electorate becomes more partisan, so do the politicians they vote for, and it hurts everyone's cause.

Edited October 19, 2016 by JayJayH

[smilesammich 10,727]

People are so scared of giving credence or credit to the other side, that they become even more partisan. As the electorate becomes more partisan, so do the politicians they vote for, and it hurts everyone's cause.

it's not a matter of becoming partisan when 'the other side' is not at all in line with your existence. voting for a candidate who says he'll defund planned parenthood (gl with that) is a vote against the best interest of all american women. good conservatives (as in fiscal not social) stayed on their knees for cray cray evangelicals way too long and now they're expected to tow the extremist prolife* line (*disclaimer, prolife only is preborn). i know christian women who are voting for trump because they actually believe he'll defund planned parenthood and apparently dictating available medical services to other women is something they feel god is personally, very.very. worried about.

LOL.

[millefleur 5,046]

it's not a matter of becoming partisan when 'the other side' is not at all in line with your existence. voting for a candidate who says he'll defund planned parenthood (gl with that) is a vote against the best interest of all american women. good conservatives (as in fiscal not social) stayed on their knees for cray cray evangelicals way too long and now they're expected to tow the extremist prolife* line (*disclaimer, prolife only is preborn). i know christian women who are voting for trump because they actually believe he'll defund planned parenthood and apparently dictating available medical services to other women is something they feel god is personally, very.very. worried about.

LOL.

Let's take the vote back from women. They're just messing everything up!

One time an evangelical woman near where my dad lives asked me if Russia had Christians. She was totally serious and really interested, she wasn't judging me or trying to push her views on me. As much as I wanted to hate her for her ignorance, I just felt sorry for her. I can't imagine being that in the dark about the outside world. I imagine people like her are Trump supporters. Honestly, they don't have a clue. It's really just sad at the end of the day.

Edited October 19, 2016 by millefleur

[JayJayH 546]

1. it's not a matter of becoming partisan when 'the other side' is not at all in line with your existence. 2. voting for a candidate who says he'll defund planned parenthood (gl with that) is a vote against the best interest of all american women. good conservatives (as in fiscal not social) stayed on their knees for cray cray evangelicals way too long and now they're expected to tow the extremist prolife* line (*disclaimer, prolife only is preborn). i know christian women who are voting for trump because they actually believe he'll defund planned parenthood and apparently dictating available medical services to other women is something they feel god is personally, very.very. worried about.

LOL.

1. 'The other side' is a very broad statement though. When liberals talk about conservatives nowadays, it tends to be a blanket generalization of Bible thumping Jerry Fallwells, and there is a fear of agreeing with anyone on the other side about anything. That's true for conservatives as well. I've spoken to several conservatives who believe 'the other side' mainly consists of hipsters with blue armpit hair whose main goal in life is to get an arbitrary 1% to pay for free stuff and to find new semantics to be offended by.

As much as I despise the fundamentalist evangelical right and SJWs, I still truly believe that they form a loud but small minority on either side. Most people are rational once you sit them down and talk with them.

2. I agree personally. But that depends entirely on your view of abortion. I've mentioned before that if you're convinced that abortion is akin to murdering infants, then opposing Planned Parenthood is a good cause. I mean, it doesn't matter how charitable an organization is - If you're killing innocent, defenseless children as part of your charity, I'd vehemently oppose it regardless of how many people told me I "hate charity." Rather than telling people they're "against women", a better approach would probably be a humble approach towards a legitimate ethical dilemma. The "you hate women" argument is kind of like the "you hate freedom" argument used by the neocons in 2003 for anyone who opposed invading Iraq.

70% of Americans oppose partial birth abortion. So there is some consensus. Most Democrats just don't trust Republicans not to overreach.

88% of Americans support either stricter gun laws, or keeping them as they are today. So there is some consensus. Most Republicans just don't trust Democrats not to overreach.

72% of Americans think immigration is a good thing for the country. So there is consensus. Most people just don't trust the other side to do it right because the megaphones have been given to the "deport them all!" crowd and the "open borders!" crowd. So I keep meeting liberals who believe conservatives hate immigrants. And I keep meeting conservatives who believe liberals want to abolish the USCIS and CBP.

I'll note that Donald Trump is the only Republican candidate for president ever to stand on stage during a Republican primary debate and say "Planned Parenthood does wonderful things for women." As much as I grieved for the GOP when Trump won, his nomination was a nail in the coffin for the evangelical right's stranglehold on the GOP.

Edited October 19, 2016 by JayJayH

[smilesammich 10,727]

Let's take the vote back from women. They're just messing everything up!

One time an evangelical woman near where my dad lives asked me if Russia had Christians. She was totally serious and really interested, she wasn't judging me or trying to push her views on me. As much as I wanted to hate her for her ignorance, I just felt sorry for her. I can't imagine being that in the dark about the outside world. I imagine people like her are Trump supporters. Honestly, they don't have a clue. It's really just sad at the end of the day.

i live in trump country it seems. fear is what that sort of darkness brings. and trump is playing right into that.

[JayJayH 546]

i live in trump country it seems. fear is what that sort of darkness brings. and trump is playing right into that.

If you live in deep red county USA, the far right probably poses a more immediate concern.

If you live in deep blue county coastal USA, the lunacy on the far left is far more apparent.

Which is why talking politics often becomes apples and oranges.

Edited October 19, 2016 by JayJayH

[smilesammich 10,727]

1. 'The other side' is a very broad statement though. When liberals talk about conservatives nowadays, it tends to be a blanket generalization of Bible thumping Jerry Fallwells, and there is a fear of agreeing with anyone on the other side about anything. That's true for conservatives as well. I've spoken to several conservatives who believe 'the other side' mainly consists of hipsters with blue armpit hair whose main goal in life is to get an arbitrary 1% to pay for free stuff and to find new semantics to be offended by.

As much as I despise the fundamentalist evangelical right and SJWs, I still truly believe that they form a loud but small minority on either side. Most people are rational once you sit them down and talk with them.

2. I agree personally. But that depends entirely on your view of abortion. I've mentioned before that if you're convinced that abortion is akin to murdering infants, then opposing Planned Parenthood is a good cause. I mean, it doesn't matter how charitable an organization is - If you're killing innocent, defenseless children as part of your charity, I'd vehemently oppose it regardless of how many people told me I "hate charity." Rather than telling people they're "against women", a better approach would probably be a humble approach towards a legitimate ethical dilemma. The "you hate women" argument is kind of like the "you hate freedom" argument used by the neocons in 2003 for anyone who opposed invading Iraq.

70% of Americans oppose partial birth abortion. So there is some consensus. Most Democrats just don't trust Republicans not to overreach.

88% of Americans support either stricter gun laws, or keeping them as they are today. So there is some consensus. Most Republicans just don't trust Democrats not to overreach.

72% of Americans think immigration is a good thing for the country. So there is consensus. Most people just don't trust the other side to do it right because the megaphones have been given to the "deport them all!" crowd and the "open borders!" crowd. So I keep meeting liberals who believe conservatives hate immigrants. And I keep meeting conservatives who believe liberals want to abolish the USCIS and CBP.

I'll note that Donald Trump is the only Republican candidate for president ever to stand on stage during a Republican primary debate and say "Planned Parenthood does wonderful things for women." As much as I grieved for the GOP when Trump won, his nomination was a nail in the coffin for the evangelical right's stranglehold on the GOP.

i'm talking about the other side as in that extreme social right that by nature requires fiscal conservatism applied primarily to the poor and working class (who are, more often than not, voting/supporting policies that would function to their own detriment, if applied). they have every right to their agency. as christians or whatever if they never step foot in a planned parenthood, good on them. as voting citizens though, i feel they're required to do their homework about planned parenthood. instead, lies upon lies are repeated and nourished. id be pissed about planned parenthood too, if i believed a smidgen of the bs out there.

anyway, this is 2016. the crazies need to come along quietly because their impeding progress.