Question for the Europeans: why choose the US over Europe?

[mallafri76 1,012]

I'm from Sweden but I don't like living there. It used to be a great place but now it's going down the drain... I've lived abroad in various countries for 12 years of my adult life, trying to find the right country to live in. Canada has the best of Europe and the best of the US and is a great country to live in. Unfortunately, my husband can't stand that kind of cold, so here I am in the US instead. We also looked at Australia, but sadly, my husband's criminal convictions put an end to that.

There are good and bad things with every country and everyone have their own personal opinion of what's good and bad. It's just about finding the right place for you.

[N-o-l-a 7,167]

We did try Denmark first because we thought it would be the easier option financially and honestly it still probably would be. I'm a UK/US citizen and my husband is a Danish citizen.

Unlike others, our only issue with the spouse residency permit was that my husband had gotten cash help in the past 2 years when his business folded. Now, that has passed. We had no issue with the money guarantee, apartment size, or work requirements.

Some reasons that I won't ever move back to Denmark:

1. Other foreigners - between the really aggressive ones from Asia and MENA and the racist comments one directed at me on the street, I just don't want to deal with it. They think they can act like bullies to the Danes because unlike this native New Yorker, they aren't going to react back.

2. Not being Scandinavian looking enough because I have brown eyes and brown hair. Comments galore on this #### from the locals. I get it, I've got brown eyes, my toddler has brown eyes, zomgzzzzzz, they are dominant guys, learn some genetics.

3. The outrageous taxes on everything, but especially food and cars. Food is not taxed where I live now and there were times living in Denmark that groceries were a real economic burden for us. There is also way less choice on certain items in the supermarket. More choice in dairy and pork, but pretty much everything else is about 20% of the choice level in America. It came down to that several years out we'd be able to afford a car or to buy a house. In America, we bought a house and two cars for cash. That's a standard of living bump.

4. Danish. The inaudible and glottal sounds to my English speaking ears are just too much, but part of that is a me issue. I'm studying Norwegian at university at the moment and whilst I can write it and read it well, my conversational ability is garbage. It is worse in Danish for me because it just doesn't phonetically match the written language. No, everyone doesn't speak English in Denmark.

5. Unless you've got the Danish down fluently or have a really good degree and were recruited for a job from abroad, your job prospects are like factory and cleaning work.

6. Stay at home moms and wives are not a thing in Denmark, it just isn't done and it is my jam, so there's that.

7. When you have a child you are supposed to take the first year off to care for them and then swiftly pawn them off on daycare forever more or you are doing them a disservice. Which sort of goes back to point 6.

8. There is a mere fraction of the sunshine hours in Denmark that we get even compared to Northern Minnesota.

9. The new Starbucks there is crazy expensive.

10. Americans are very expressive and open as a general rule of thumb. Danes conceal their emotions and can be unnervingly calm at times. Sometimes it felt like I was living amongst robots.

11. Unchivalrous robots. Chivalry is dead in Denmark unless you loudly proclaim how dead it is and how American men would never be so rude. Then, maybe you get some politeness.

12. I hate bagging my own groceries and attempting to figure out how many bags I need to pay for before bagging them.

13. Cars are expensive, but so is public transport too.

14. They are doing away with a lot of personal type mail. I like mail. I like checks. I don't want everything to be on a computer.

15. At least when we lived there, there was less television content on demand like we have in America. That might have changed.

My personal impressions contained above, no need for debate.

I do like somethings about Denmark too, but America is the better fit for us.

Edited September 18, 2016 by N-o-l-a

[Boiler 45,467]

Muricans sort of speak English, I know a bit of French but that is about it.

How many years would it take to become fluent in French, German, Dutch whatever?

[Pitchman 8]

This is a good question and one that Ive made very clear to my Fiance in Indonesia. Ive told her from the beginning that the impression that people have of the USA is vastly distorted. That it is not easy to live here and most importantly it is NOT a land of the free and never was. My fiance in Indo is not poor, she has a nice apartment, good job and lives in a nice part of Jakarta. I told her that when she comes to America she will be literally swapping a like for a like. Meaning the same life that she has in Indo she will have here for the most part and initially it will be harder. She fully understands now. I think for some the reasons they want to leave there own country is purely for reasons of being fed up with the government or societal issues, not for reasons of economy, living or employment problems.

[N-o-l-a 7,167]

Muricans sort of speak English, I know a bit of French but that is about it.

How many years would it take to become fluent in French, German, Dutch whatever?

I think this depends a lot of the person and how much time they devote to it.

I'd say a year and a half and I was at C1 written in Norwegian and B1 maybe B2 spoken, but I suck at speaking. I'd say another 3 months actually getting to speak it a couple of days a week and I'd be C1 spoken. And at a total of 2.5 years fluent in both. Norwegian is significantly easier than German for native English speakers.

So like 18 months to C1 level and 30 months for fluency.

Wikipedia says:

"Deutsche Welle suggests A1 is reached with about 75 hours of German studies, A2.1 with about 150 hours, A2.2 with about 225 hours, B1.1 with about 300 hours, and B1.2 with about 400 hours.^[6]

Alliance Française has stated students can expect to reach CEFR levels after the following cumulative hours of instruction: A1 60–100, A2 160–200, B1 360–400, B2 560–650, C1 810–950, C2 1060–1200.^[8]"

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages}

[TabeaK 517]

You have answered your own question - the story of your sister not fitting in in Austria?

I never wanted to leave Europe, but I view it as a sacrifice I had to make if I want to be with my husband. I lived in a very nice, semi-rural, very homogenous area of Southern Germany. Nice area, good jobs, great recreation, great life, no crime whatsoever. Great life that is, if you speak the lingo and are ethnic German and fit in well. Which I obviously did. Not so great for foreigners with no German knowledge, from different ethnicities etc. Which I saw over and over again when international employees tried to settle in at my former job. Very high failure rate...

Now, with the German obsession concerning certificates and degrees over actual work experience, my husband would never have been able to have the career he enjoys in the US in Germany. He doesn't speak the lingo. He looks visibly foreign. Not good starting points. My career on the other hand travels well and the only opportunity for us both to enjoy good jobs is in the US, sadly. I miss Europe a lot. Life is harder in the US, but I get to be with my love.

We are figuring it out and plan to retire (hopefully early!) in Germany.

[millefleur 5,046]

You have answered your own question - the story of your sister not fitting in in Austria?

Yes, I asked because my sister knows some Americans in Austria/Germany/Czech Rep and so forth who say "I'm never going back to the US! The US is awful, Europe is so much better..." and so on. So I was curious if anyone else here had had similar experiences to my sister.

One thing I really do not understand is Europe letting in all the so-called refugees when it's clearly extremely hard for any outsiders (even other "white" outsiders like my sister) to immigrate and fit in. I mean, how is that going to work? My sister said she doesn't get it at all, she feels like a second class citizen despite being white and looking European and being able to speak German.

My sister's Austrian husband does NOT want to leave Austria. He loves it and he'll be making the sacrifice for my sister, too...I hope it won't be overly shocking for him. But my sister is going insane over there, she can't take it anymore.

[USAUAinCZ 38]

There are things that I definitely enjoy as an American living in Europe a lot more, such as more vacation time and how amazingly cheap it is to travel here. I also love how many cultures are so close to each other.

However, my girlfriend decided to leave France for a few years ago because she couldn't even walk down the street anymore without getting verbally and physically harassed. Since she is half Iranian she looks slightly brown, most people mistake her for being Arab. Her final straw was a few summers ago she was walking 200 meters to the corner shop in a good neighborhood when people called her a dirty ####### and told her to put on her hijab like a good muslim girl, and then dumped a 2l bottle of water on her head.

I want to emphasize I am not anti-immigrant at all and my girlfriend told me all of these people in France acting like this are usually 3rd or 4th generation in France so they are French. Just a sad situation overall, since France is an absolutely amazing country.

So that is why she wants to move back to the USA. I want to move back to be closer to my family and the fact that as an IT professional I got paid over 3x more in the USA than I did here in both Germany and now the Czech Republic where we live now.

[millefleur 5,046]

There are things that I definitely enjoy as an American living in Europe a lot more, such as more vacation time and how amazingly cheap it is to travel here. I also love how many cultures are so close to each other.

However, my girlfriend decided to leave France for a few years ago because she couldn't even walk down the street anymore without getting verbally and physically harassed. Since she is half Iranian she looks slightly brown, most people mistake her for being Arab. Her final straw was a few summers ago she was walking 200 meters to the corner shop in a good neighborhood when people called her a dirty ####### and told her to put on her hijab like a good muslim girl, and then dumped a 2l bottle of water on her head.

That's awful!! It's so weird, Europe has this view of being so "liberal" compared to the USA, but I feel like European society has a tendency to be a lot more racist than American society. Sure, there are your crazy people here and there in the US who might hold bigoted views, but overall Americans are much more open and welcoming (therefore "liberal") than the Europeans when it comes to this.....so sad, really.

I really get the feeling Europe is going down the tubes. (Don't even get me started on Russia, hah.) I feel like the US is really more welcoming when I hear stories like this....I think a lot of Americans like me take this for granted or we just don't even think about it because it's normality to us, the whole "melting pot" thing.

[Boiler 45,467]

That's awful!! It's so weird, Europe has this view of being so "liberal" compared to the USA, but I feel like European society has a tendency to be a lot more racist than American society. Sure, there are your crazy people here and there in the US who might hold bigoted views, but overall Americans are much more open and welcoming (therefore "liberal") than the Europeans when it comes to this.....so sad, really.

I really get the feeling Europe is going down the tubes. (Don't even get me started on Russia, hah.) I feel like the US is really more welcoming when I hear stories like this....I think a lot of Americans like me take this for granted or we just don't even think about it because it's normality to us, the whole "melting pot" thing.

Europe and for that matter the UK is going through a transformation not seen since the 1930's. And not likely to end well. They never do, US seems to have more time but...

Come and join us in the cess pit known as CEHST.

[TabeaK 517]

That's awful!! It's so weird, Europe has this view of being so "liberal" compared to the USA, but I feel like European society has a tendency to be a lot more racist than American society. Sure, there are your crazy people here and there in the US who might hold bigoted views, but overall Americans are much more open and welcoming (therefore "liberal") than the Europeans when it comes to this.....so sad, really.

I really get the feeling Europe is going down the tubes. (Don't even get me started on Russia, hah.) I feel like the US is really more welcoming when I hear stories like this....I think a lot of Americans like me take this for granted or we just don't even think about it because it's normality to us, the whole "melting pot" thing.

Those statements are not exactly the sign of an "open" American, are they? I don't want to verge into a political discussion, but unless you live there - and that includes all of us, whether it is the US or Europe - it is very hard to make a sound judgement.

I personally view it as commendable that Europe at least tries to handle the endless stream of refugees caused by the unrest in the middle East and the poverty in Africa. Because what else is the alternative? Are these policies currently sustainable or well thought out? Probably not - only time will tell. There certainly is resurgent nationalism all over the world and that includes America to a very strong degree. I mean, look at Trump, BREXIT, the voting success of various nationalistic parties in France, Poland, Germany... Very worrying indeed.

And don't get me started on the media here in the US. I have been here almost a year now and still haven't gotten over the lack of neutrality and essential propaganda being broadcast every day. That is my personal culture shock. Buyers beware - don't believe everything you hear on Amercian news, try and back it up with international & local news. That is what I do, anyway.

In any case, a country that has a person like Trump as a bonafide presidential candidate could conceivably be described as going down the tubes as well.

[Maria2012 16]

In US you can get any job just like a US born person, it is illegal to discriminate. In Europe it's the opposite.

[TabeaK 517]

In US you can get any job just like a US born person, it is illegal to discriminate. In Europe it's the opposite.

That is a blatant falsehood. A large fraction of the Western European countries have anti-discrimination laws similar in scope to the US.

A lot of discrimination - which exists on both sides of the pond - is soft and difficult to prove. Look around at the challenges that immigrants face in the job market here. There are a dozen posts on these boards alone. The same holds true for immigrants into Europe.

Speak the lingo perfectly? Have advanced degrees in sought after areas? Have lots of connections and relevant experience? The right pedigree? You will settle in easily. However, have a thick accent, lack formal qualifications or those that are locally accepted, look visibly different and have no connection? It'll be MUCH harder. No matter where you are. Unfortunately, us humans are creatures of habit who get imprinted by our environment pretty early on. Such attitudes are difficult to change.

[millefleur 5,046]

In any case, a country that has a person like Trump as a bonafide presidential candidate could conceivably be described as going down the tubes as well.

Last time I checked, the Philippines has a pretty harsh and unforgiving president as well. Lots of places have corrupt political leaders. I was talking more about the society as you encounter them on a day-to-day basis, and from that I think America is slightly more welcoming than Europe, that's all.

The politics of a country don't necessarily reflect how the people are there when it comes to interacting with them personally. Russians are extremely ignorant of global politics, and their media is extremely anti-American. Yet, on the street and in the society here, Russians are really welcoming and hospitable, even to Americans. It's totally the exact opposite picture of what both medias (US and Russian) paint of each other. So, a lot of Americans have a view of Europe as being this super liberal "hippy-dippy" place and it's a bit surprising to find out that it's different.

I agree with one of the previous posters, there is no utopia on Earth. Every place has it's ups and downs for sure. Reading people's answers here have been very enlightening to me.

Edited September 18, 2016 by millefleur

[Boiler 45,467]

With Merkel in charge pretty difficult to comment negatively on anybody else.