questionable prior work experience?

[Ivelina_Andrew 0]

Yes the couple would be in some difficulty if they ever found out.....

And since you admit you wouldn't take this risk, it seems odd that you'd offer it as a serious contention for anyone else to follow! It's easy to suggest such a fraud if it's someone else who faces the consequence if they get caught. My purpose is to explain to the original poster here how they could get caught if they try.

If I was sure they would not grant me a visa - of course I would take the risk.

Of course they could get caught - I am not trying to say they will not.

I do not think though that you would understand me and I sure understand you but i cannot accept your point- you are typical american and I am typical eastern european...we do not speak the same language...

we have grown up trying to find ways around things that we do not like or do not wanna do the way they were supposed to be done. and in america almost everyone does things exactly as they are supposed to - i guess that is the difference.it would definetely be hard adaptation for me in this sense.

But are you saying that you would not lie if you were sure they would not give you a visa?

[meauxna 15]

I do not think though that you would understand me and I sure understand you but i cannot accept your point- you are typical american and I am typical eastern european...we do not speak the same language...

we have grown up trying to find ways around things that we do not like or do not wanna do the way they were supposed to be done. and in america almost everyone does things exactly as they are supposed to - i guess that is the difference.it would definetely be hard adaptation for me in this sense.

Hell no.. one of my favorite phrases is 'a little larceny is good for the soul'.

But there is a major difference between what I would decide to do for myself, and what I would tell others on the internet is 'OK' to do.

Whatever happens behind my front door is my concern.

[Ivelina_Andrew 0]

I do not think though that you would understand me and I sure understand you but i cannot accept your point- you are typical american and I am typical eastern european...we do not speak the same language...

we have grown up trying to find ways around things that we do not like or do not wanna do the way they were supposed to be done. and in america almost everyone does things exactly as they are supposed to - i guess that is the difference.it would definetely be hard adaptation for me in this sense.

Hell no.. one of my favorite phrases is 'a little larceny is good for the soul'.

But there is a major difference between what I would decide to do for myself, and what I would tell others on the internet is 'OK' to do.

Whatever happens behind my front door is my concern.

What is "Ok" depends only on the people filing...

and no one is telling anybody what is "OK", we just sharing opinions...

But I do like your favourite phrase

It makes life that more colourful and interesting

[Andy 2]

I do not think though that you would understand me and I sure understand you but i cannot accept your point- you are typical american and I am typical eastern european...we do not speak the same language...

we have grown up trying to find ways around things that we do not like or do not wanna do the way they were supposed to be done. and in america almost everyone does things exactly as they are supposed to - i guess that is the difference.it would definetely be hard adaptation for me in this sense.

But are you saying that you would not lie if you were sure they would not give you a visa?

Firstly, I am not a 'typical american', whatever that is. Not even an American in the first instance in fact. Secondly, while I see that you have just filed your I-129F (and best wishes, good luck and I hope you are processed and approved quickly - sincerely) I have been involved in US immigration casework for almost 8 years now, and if I had a dollar for every case where those involved has said 'I wish I'd known then what I do now', or some such, I'd be rather rich by now.

I understand you perfectly well, and I understand the cultural background of which you speak perfectly well too. The problem is that when coming to the US, a certain amount if adapting to 'the american way' is inevitable, even if it takes time for it to happen. Unfortunately where immigration is concerned, adapting to the needs and mechanisms of the system is crucially important at the outset. It's not that cheats and fraudsters don't get through the system because they do, but typically the ones that do so plan it and understand the systems they are working through far better than the usual applicant, who often in all innocence, get caught. And even if they didn't, it means that every day for the rest of the time the immigrant was in the US, they would have to wonder if today was the day something in their case comes to light that could render them liable to deportation. Given that in an average K-1 case, from date of I-129F filing until Permanent Resident status is approved can be something like 5 years and there are 4 major adjudication in that period of time, all of which involve background checks which are becoming more organized as time passes, the significant risk of being caught out doesn't go away for a long time - and that's without additional consideration given to possibly seeking US Citizenship too, and the impact such a thing could have on that.

Would I lie if I knew I'd be denied? To be honest, I'd be tempted but in the end no, I wouldn't. But then I know the system and I know the waivers and the discretionary powers so I don't have the same view of the procedure you might.

[JoeMama 0]

I'd sure like to know what a "typical American" is looking from a foreigner's point of view. I was born and raised here in the USA. There is nothing typical about all the people I have met throughout my life. There's good people, bad people, stupid people, etc.

[Ivelina_Andrew 0]

I do not think though that you would understand me and I sure understand you but i cannot accept your point- you are typical american and I am typical eastern european...we do not speak the same language...

we have grown up trying to find ways around things that we do not like or do not wanna do the way they were supposed to be done. and in america almost everyone does things exactly as they are supposed to - i guess that is the difference.it would definetely be hard adaptation for me in this sense.

But are you saying that you would not lie if you were sure they would not give you a visa?

Firstly, I am not a 'typical american', whatever that is. Not even an American in the first instance in fact. Secondly, while I see that you have just filed your I-129F (and best wishes, good luck and I hope you are processed and approved quickly - sincerely) I have been involved in US immigration casework for almost 8 years now, and if I had a dollar for every case where those involved has said 'I wish I'd known then what I do now', or some such, I'd be rather rich by now.

I understand you perfectly well, and I understand the cultural background of which you speak perfectly well too. The problem is that when coming to the US, a certain amount if adapting to 'the american way' is inevitable, even if it takes time for it to happen. Unfortunately where immigration is concerned, adapting to the needs and mechanisms of the system is crucially important at the outset. It's not that cheats and fraudsters don't get through the system because they do, but typically the ones that do so plan it and understand the systems they are working through far better than the usual applicant, who often in all innocence, get caught. And even if they didn't, it means that every day for the rest of the time the immigrant was in the US, they would have to wonder if today was the day something in their case comes to light that could render them liable to deportation. Given that in an average K-1 case, from date of I-129F filing until Permanent Resident status is approved can be something like 5 years and there are 4 major adjudication in that period of time, all of which involve background checks which are becoming more organized as time passes, the significant risk of being caught out doesn't go away for a long time - and that's without additional consideration given to possibly seeking US Citizenship too, and the impact such a thing could have on that.

Would I lie if I knew I'd be denied? To be honest, I'd be tempted but in the end no, I wouldn't. But then I know the system and I know the waivers and the discretionary powers so I don't have the same view of the procedure you might.

Ok see we are not gonna get to anything like a consensus here.

So I believe it in one way you do in another. And do not get me wrong - I have done more than the required to make sure I do not violate any laws or anything regarding this petition. But trust me - with all the respevt to your experience - I know of people getting around systems in Germany, UK, America so easily...It is not for everybody though - not everybody can live like that (i mean risking everyhitng that some sunny day they might catch you).

And may be you are not american but you do not sound as an eastern european too. I am not saying which is better(moreover we all know which economy is the most powerful in the world now) just putting up with it being impossible for us to put ourselves in the other person's shoes.

So all best with your journey in immigration too, everything good to everybidy here,

hope well all find happiness with our loved ones.

And a little spice always makes it better in life (and love)

[Andy 2]

And may be you are not american but you do not sound as an eastern european too....

What I 'sound like' to you seems more like racial stereotyping than anything else to me, and it doesn't have any bearing on this discussion. Since you don't know anything about me, it's not really possible for you to make a cogent judgement.

Ultimately, the US immigration system functions in the framework of American culture and law however, so whomever anyone is, the one consistent factor is having to pass through this mechanism, as constructed by American lawmakers and operated by American civil servants.

There are certainly people who are in the US unlawfully one way or another - an unknown number of million of them to be somewhat vaguely precise - but that's hardly a good argument for adding to the number or recommendation for a good way of life! Nor does that fact mitigate in any way what are the rules and laws governing the legal immigration process.

By the way, in doing casework, I do put myself in other people's shoes every day. I wouldn't do it if I were not prepared to do so. I have learnt (and I can tell you that it's true) that a very conservative attitude to the US immigration system is the best way to avoid problems when dealing with it. It's not 'american' to take that approach, it's what works for the people on behalf of whom I work.

[zardox 0]

I should point out that in is case that the job does not really even exist on the books anywhere. It was a completely unofficial job that is not reported to any governement institution anywhere in the world. That does not mean however that there is then complete latitude to lie about the job, there is still the need to show up and explain that job in person without the interviewer becoming suspcious. And I think one has to assume that counselor interviewers are very adept at picking up if they are not being told the truth, even if they dont know what the truth is.

I wouldnt consider to take that course of action, but saying unemployed simply won't hold up. She was living in a FOREIGN country for just over a year, there has to be some means of support to be shown. Otherwise, the worst will be assumed. I think I would conclude that the best course of action is to report the work in the softest terms possible and play down the exact details of the job. Without lying.

[Yulek 0]

Here’s my two cents: I used to be a consular officer, and I’ve conducted more than a thousand K-1 interviews. The US government is not all-knowing, but you are seriously underestimating the reasoning power of a consular officer if your friend attempts to conceal this. There are lines of questioning that will reveal things about her past, and unless she is an extremely experienced liar, a good consular officer will be able to catch her on her inconsistencies very quickly. Most people are not half as good at lying as they think they are. One misplaced piece of evidence 10 minutes into the interview can bring the whole issue back into light and cause serious problems for the interviewee. And things will go downhill from there VERY FAST.

Your friend and his fiancee are in a much, much better position if they use honesty and explain what exactly was going on with her job situation. Consular officers aren’t stupid and it’s not like they don’t see this stuff everyday. If you are correct in stating that no “crimes of moral turpitude” occurred, then you are so much better off using honesty. Don’t lie or omit. It is a risk that really isn’t worth taking for an issue such as this. Really not worth it.

[john_and_marlene 162]

Tell the truth. How would you answer the following sample questions?

1. I see you were in Thailand for over a year. What were you doing there for so long?

2. How did you support yourself while you were there?

If I were the CO, I would certainly ask those questions and pay close attention to the manner in which they were answered. If there was a claim of unemployment during that time, I would be extremely suspicious and examine that time period in greater depth. I would ask many questions about that time and look for any inconsistencies in the answers.

You don't have to worry about being caught in a lie if you tell the truth.

[DA BOMB 1]

Tell the truth. How would you answer the following sample questions?

1. I see you were in Thailand for over a year. What were you doing there for so long?

2. How did you support yourself while you were there?

If I were the CO, I would certainly ask those questions and pay close attention to the manner in which they were answered. If there was a claim of unemployment during that time, I would be extremely suspicious and examine that time period in greater depth. I would ask many questions about that time and look for any inconsistencies in the answers.

You don't have to worry about being caught in a lie if you tell the truth.

If she was an exotic dancer would that be considered a CIMT? Just out of curiosity. Im wondering if the embassy would view this occupation in the same light.

[Caladan 19]

It's also worth pointing out that not only are the officials trained to spot liars, but that they're familiar with the culture of the country they're in. If it's truly unusual for a Filipina to go to Thailand and not work, then they'll wonder how she supported herself. If it's usual that she'd work just as a nanny, they'll wonder why she's concealing her employment history.

It might be worth talking to a lawyer experienced with your consulate to determine how to put the best spin on this without lying.

[Andy 2]

If she was an exotic dancer would that be considered a CIMT? Just out of curiosity. Im wondering if the embassy would view this occupation in the same light.

One of the problems here is that the entire notion of 'moral turpitude' is so loosely defined that much depends on how the issues is viewed by the individual, rather than by the specifics involved in a case. As such, the line between what is and isn't likely to be considered in those terms varies from location to location, and as a result it's far less likely that such would be judged to have crossed that line in (for example) Thailand, where sex work is a far more prolific and unremarkable industry, than, (for example) in the UK.

It's not the job itself that counts of course, so much as what the job involves - and to some extent the degree to which the person undertook that work voluntarily or by coercion or necessity. Consular officials have considerable discretion in how they view the matter, and do so on a case-by-case basis. That's why it works far better to be honest and explain the circumstances, because that way the context makes it possible for the adjudicator to approve the application despite the job history.

Incidentally, a serious problem would also occur if the work was not openly declared but became apparent during the interview, because not only would the adjudicator have the question of moral turpitude to consider, plus the possibility of judging the omission to have been a deliberate attempt to obscure a material fact, but even assuming a decision to let the application go forward, there would be the question of whether the petition indicated the petitioner knew of this work. If not, then the probability would be that the consular officer would then refer the case back to the USCIS for review since the employment history would be expected to impact the petitioner's choice to continue or not.

[DA BOMB 1]

If she was an exotic dancer would that be considered a CIMT? Just out of curiosity. Im wondering if the embassy would view this occupation in the same light.

One of the problems here is that the entire notion of 'moral turpitude' is so loosely defined that much depends on how the issues is viewed by the individual, rather than by the specifics involved in a case. As such, the line between what is and isn't likely to be considered in those terms varies from location to location, and as a result it's far less likely that such would be judged to have crossed that line in (for example) Thailand, where sex work is a far more prolific and unremarkable industry, than, (for example) in the UK.

It's not the job itself that counts of course, so much as what the job involves - and to some extent the degree to which the person undertook that work voluntarily or by coercion or necessity. Consular officials have considerable discretion in how they view the matter, and do so on a case-by-case basis. That's why it works far better to be honest and explain the circumstances, because that way the context makes it possible for the adjudicator to approve the application despite the job history.

Incidentally, a serious problem would also occur if the work was not openly declared but became apparent during the interview, because not only would the adjudicator have the question of moral turpitude to consider, plus the possibility of judging the omission to have been a deliberate attempt to obscure a material fact, but even assuming a decision to let the application go forward, there would be the question of whether the petition indicated the petitioner knew of this work. If not, then the probability would be that the consular officer would then refer the case back to the USCIS for review since the employment history would be expected to impact the petitioner's choice to continue or not.

Good point and wouldnt that just suck?

[Yodrak 7]

MRS BILLY BONG,

In Thailand? Or in the Philippines? Yes. 'Exotic dancers', as you so kindly put it, or 'bar girls', as they are commonly called, are virtually all prostitues in Thailand and the Philippines. As are many hostesses and singers in the 'sing-a-song' cafes, massage parlor workers, and employees in numerous other entertainment venues. Not all of the women in all of these kinds of places will go out with customers regularly, but virtually all bar girls do and the vast majority of the others will at some point go with customers who they find interesting and appealing.

Consular officers know their post, they know what jobs and what types of businesses are rife with prostitution, and a woman suspected of being associated with such jobs and businesses will face a tough interview. They are not going to have their visa applications denied because of their job title or place of employment, but they are going to undergo increasingly gruelling questioning until they ultimately admit to having prostituted themselves at which point they will be denied.

I recall on VJer a few years back who angrily posted about his fiancee being denied her visa in Bangkok. According to the poster, the consular officer suspected her of being a prostitute because she lived in a neighborhood that was a popular place for bar girls to live. The VJer reported that his fiancee was bullied to the point that she admitted to having gone with men a few times and her visa was promptly denied. The VJer insists that his fiancee was innocent, but many a western man has been completely fooled by a comely Thai girl so it may well be that it was the consular officer who actually got to the truth of the matter.

Yodrak

Tell the truth. How would you answer the following sample questions?

1. I see you were in Thailand for over a year. What were you doing there for so long?

2. How did you support yourself while you were there?

If I were the CO, I would certainly ask those questions and pay close attention to the manner in which they were answered. If there was a claim of unemployment during that time, I would be extremely suspicious and examine that time period in greater depth. I would ask many questions about that time and look for any inconsistencies in the answers.

You don't have to worry about being caught in a lie if you tell the truth.

If she was an exotic dancer would that be considered a CIMT? Just out of curiosity. Im wondering if the embassy would view this occupation in the same light.