New K1 subforums?

[LaL 418]

I guess from my perspective I would just like the chance to demonstrate that if I get more than 3-4 reported posts a day I can probably easily handle some of the issues raised in this thread. There are several members that PM me regularly on issues and nine times out of ten I agree and quickly act on them. Everyone should not be afraid to report things.

An example is the MENA forum where I specifically told them to let me know when things were bad. I made a serious point to emphasize the TOS and it was a benefit to everyone. I do not think anyone took it personally and in the end things were much better for the community.

sorry - i think MENA forum is a bad example, but thats another thread.

[Marilyn. 340]

Do you think that adding a note to the new members guide indicating that it is "ok" to report threads (and in fact very important) will help? I can also post a notice site wide to remind people.

that might help

[Jenn! 918]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but at the present time I think the biggest issues are with organization, not member behavior.

[LaL 418]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but at the present time I think the biggest issues are with organization, not member behavior.

(at this time anyway)

[Andy 2]

Do you think that having member moderators will fix all that?

To address that question specifically, yes. The right moderators, chosen along the lines as suggested a page or two back in this thread, are capable of adjusting and modifying behavior patterns of posters, content and attitude very quickly. They can do that because unlike you, they are actively involved. There are potential pitfalls, which is why the choice needs to be carefully made and then those selected given the opportunity to demonstrate their skills for a relatively short period to make sure they understand the role and can perform it, but the right handful of members can do a great deal to restore the community and cohesion that VJ was famed for, but has not been for a while now.

What I don't get, with all due respect, is your objection to this. I've proposed (as I did last year) that you pick the people to do this job, and by and large you would define the boundary of their responsibilities. We've already told you in this thread why we think it's a good thing, and after untangling moderating issues from the K-1/NOA issue Tracy started with and which is now resolved (with thanks), the question of member-moderation seems the most logical place to start on the whole slew of issues about content and direction.

The problem is that your view seems tied to specific TOS violations and clearly identifiable violators, but the problems are by and large far more subtle than that, with the implication that far more hands-on solutions are needed for things to be resolved comfortably without risking the site falling into organisational and functional disrepair. The very people who really need to be feeding into the Guides and FAQ are the ones who are being discouraged by what's going on and who become less likely to do so. Bad, and I mean BAD advice gets handed out to people by members who simply don't know or don't mind offering 'advice' that is actually encouraging others to break the law - is that against the TOS? By the time you get to do anything, is it fast enough to prevent a member mistaking it for good advice?!

Doesn't it seem reasonable to suppose, that over time, if VJ slips a bit and then a bit more, the seasoned regulars upon whom it relies will drift away because here they get shouted down or drowned out, or derided for wanting to do things 'the right way'?! Wouldn't it be wise to figure out a plan about how to stop that happening, before it does? Don't you think that of those of us who have raised this collection of issues, there is a sufficient degree of experience with active participation in the site that we might actually know what we're talking about?

The thing is that even amongst us, there's wide disparity of view about the solution to all of these things, but the one thing we seem to agree on is that better moderation is needed - which is not a reflection of your own skills or responsibilities here, just that as participants we see it differently, and we see a downward trend that needs halting, that as the moderator you couldn't hope to see.

Anyway - that's my view and I'll shut up. Status as the 6th ever VJ member doesn't entitle me to be any more right than anyone else!

[Niels Bohr 72]

Hmmm...Can someobody do a reset post counts. I am not in it for post counts when I say congratulations. I view the timelines of those who successfully went through the process, and at the excitement of seeing how happy they are I leave them a message. Or, better yet. Just not show the post counts, and let me be at the average counts forever.

Edited March 29, 2007 by consolemaster

[Marilyn. 340]

Do you think that having member moderators will fix all that?

To address that question specifically, yes. The right moderators, chosen along the lines as suggested a page or two back in this thread, are capable of adjusting and modifying behavior patterns of posters, content and attitude very quickly. They can do that because unlike you, they are actively involved. There are potential pitfalls, which is why the choice needs to be carefully made and then those selected given the opportunity to demonstrate their skills for a relatively short period to make sure they understand the role and can perform it, but the right handful of members can do a great deal to restore the community and cohesion that VJ was famed for, but has not been for a while now.

What I don't get, with all due respect, is your objection to this. I've proposed (as I did last year) that you pick the people to do this job, and by and large you would define the boundary of their responsibilities. We've already told you in this thread why we think it's a good thing, and after untangling moderating issues from the K-1/NOA issue Tracy started with and which is now resolved (with thanks), the question of member-moderation seems the most logical place to start on the whole slew of issues about content and direction.

The problem is that your view seems tied to specific TOS violations and clearly identifiable violators, but the problems are by and large far more subtle than that, with the implication that far more hands-on solutions are needed for things to be resolved comfortably without risking the site falling into organisational and functional disrepair. The very people who really need to be feeding into the Guides and FAQ are the ones who are being discouraged by what's going on and who become less likely to do so. Bad, and I mean BAD advice gets handed out to people by members who simply don't know or don't mind offering 'advice' that is actually encouraging others to break the law - is that against the TOS? By the time you get to do anything, is it fast enough to prevent a member mistaking it for good advice?!

Doesn't it seem reasonable to suppose, that over time, if VJ slips a bit and then a bit more, the seasoned regulars upon whom it relies will drift away because here they get shouted down or drowned out, or derided for wanting to do things 'the right way'?! Wouldn't it be wise to figure out a plan about how to stop that happening, before it does? Don't you think that of those of us who have raised this collection of issues, there is a sufficient degree of experience with active participation in the site that we might actually know what we're talking about?

The thing is that even amongst us, there's wide disparity of view about the solution to all of these things, but the one thing we seem to agree on is that better moderation is needed - which is not a reflection of your own skills or responsibilities here, just that as participants we see it differently, and we see a downward trend that needs halting, that as the moderator you couldn't hope to see.

Anyway - that's my view and I'll shut up. Status as the 6th ever VJ member doesn't entitle me to be any more right than anyone else!

I don't think "seasoned members" leave because of VJ slipping.... Do we expect people to comtine with VJ for the rest of thier lives?? People have always come and go ever since I have been here..... It is not like their there has been one major exodus of members....

There always seems to be new people to fill the shoes of the ones that left....

[Mags 112]

This is an important point because I honestly will not see things if they are not reported....

THAT is one of the primary reasons for having a moderating team comprising members who are invested in the outcome.

but why do we need moderators for that.... if people are having problems they should just report it......

a lot of people are trying to say that VJ has gotten worse and worse but it really hasn't.... I have been here for almost 3 years already and I have seen my fair share of arguments and squabbles over those 3 years..... but they never really last long .....

And let's not forget that the majority of people here CAN stand up for themselves here. We are not children...

Hmmm...Can someobody do a reset post counts. I am not in it for post counts when I say congratulations. I view the timelines of those who successfully went through the process, and at the excitement of seeing how happy they are I leave them a message. Or, better yet. Just not show the post counts, and let me be at the average counts forever.

Being honest here, your large pink "Congratulations" can be a little irritating...seeing as you mentioned it.

[Niels Bohr 72]

I stay away from threads that will raise a dispute. Like the other time with the thread about a man who was being abused by his wife. I knew something like that could raise issues, so I stopped posting.

[Andy 2]

Hmmm...Can someobody do a reset post counts. I am not in it for post counts when I say congratulations. I view the timelines of those who successfully went through the process, and at the excitement of seeing how happy they are I leave them a message. Or, better yet. Just not show the post counts, and let me be at the average counts forever.

I said I'd shut up, but you raise a point related to something I said that deserves comment.

VJ was ALWAYS intended to be a place where people could, should and were encouraged to post when good things happened, and where others could, should and would post congratulatory messages. It was a critical part of the need of the community then, and personally I think it is now just the same. There's nothing wrong with posting either type of message, and we should all welcome every scrap of success our members enjoy.

But post count is misleading - can be very misleading to those who don't know how it came about. To a newbie, 1,000 'great news, well done' posts is just the same, or more likely indeed to have been, 1,000 'this is how you do it' contributions. Yet it can't be turned off because otherwise there are no indicators of 'trust' of any kind for posters to go off other than how long anyone has been here - and that's not a safe indicator either!

I saw you get bashed in another thread earlier for your post count and way it was achieved, and the sad fact is that even if the poster was right in that criticism, it's still a sad reminder of how things have gone a little wrong here. Your 'congratulations' posts are every bit as much a part of the community here as my 'how immigration law works' posts (obliquely referring to that thread!) and they should be treated as such. To me, a 'post #######' is someone who posts fast and furious to build up the count just to seem important, and worse, who then uses that apparent status to try and assert views that supplant the wisdom of those who really do know. Post whores are the only ones who really know who they are, and while I used the term generically, it's inappropriate in my view for it to be used as a term to be bandied between users. That's something that while not perhaps a violation of the TOS, I would like to see stamped out.

[Niels Bohr 72]

There's no way in resetting counts? I don't give advice where I have no idea what's going on. I just came here to find out people's timelines. Well, if my congratulatory is a nusuance to seasoned members, I just will not post anymore. I thought that those who's receiving those messages are happy. But, they're not I guess.

This is not a business, or any benefit to me for posting so much congratulatory. I guess nobody realizes that.

[Nagishkaw 510]

You are not on trial here, Consolemaster. I personally have never seen you post anything condescending , but I have seen that done by a few of the so -called 'seasoned ' members who are praised for their fairness .

And let's just leave it at that.

[Mags 112]

Hmmm...Can someobody do a reset post counts. I am not in it for post counts when I say congratulations. I view the timelines of those who successfully went through the process, and at the excitement of seeing how happy they are I leave them a message. Or, better yet. Just not show the post counts, and let me be at the average counts forever.

I said I'd shut up, but you raise a point related to something I said that deserves comment.

VJ was ALWAYS intended to be a place where people could, should and were encouraged to post when good things happened, and where others could, should and would post congratulatory messages. It was a critical part of the need of the community then, and personally I think it is now just the same. There's nothing wrong with posting either type of message, and we should all welcome every scrap of success our members enjoy.

But post count is misleading - can be very misleading to those who don't know how it came about. To a newbie, 1,000 'great news, well done' posts is just the same, or more likely indeed to have been, 1,000 'this is how you do it' contributions. Yet it can't be turned off because otherwise there are no indicators of 'trust' of any kind for posters to go off other than how long anyone has been here - and that's not a safe indicator either!

I saw you get bashed in another thread earlier for your post count and way it was achieved, and the sad fact is that even if the poster was right in that criticism, it's still a sad reminder of how things have gone a little wrong here. Your 'congratulations' posts are every bit as much a part of the community here as my 'how immigration law works' posts (obliquely referring to that thread!) and they should be treated as such. To me, a 'post #######' is someone who posts fast and furious to build up the count just to seem important, and worse, who then uses that apparent status to try and assert views that supplant the wisdom of those who really do know. Post whores are the only ones who really know who they are, and while I used the term generically, it's inappropriate in my view for it to be used as a term to be bandied between users. That's something that while not perhaps a violation of the TOS, I would like to see stamped out.

I have nothing against anyone posting congratulatory messages. I do it myself...but I do tend to stick with people I have followed during their process or people I know. The main issue I have is the constant copying and pasting of the same message in what appears to be every single thread about NOA1, a touch, NOA2, interviews, another touch and so on. To post the same message over and over seems to me to actually be counter productive and actually quite irritating. It can also come across as lazy, just my opinion.

Edited March 29, 2007 by mags

[Otto 83]

Hmmm...Can someobody do a reset post counts. I am not in it for post counts when I say congratulations. I view the timelines of those who successfully went through the process, and at the excitement of seeing how happy they are I leave them a message. Or, better yet. Just not show the post counts, and let me be at the average counts forever.

I said I'd shut up, but you raise a point related to something I said that deserves comment.

VJ was ALWAYS intended to be a place where people could, should and were encouraged to post when good things happened, and where others could, should and would post congratulatory messages. It was a critical part of the need of the community then, and personally I think it is now just the same. There's nothing wrong with posting either type of message, and we should all welcome every scrap of success our members enjoy.

But post count is misleading - can be very misleading to those who don't know how it came about. To a newbie, 1,000 'great news, well done' posts is just the same, or more likely indeed to have been, 1,000 'this is how you do it' contributions. Yet it can't be turned off because otherwise there are no indicators of 'trust' of any kind for posters to go off other than how long anyone has been here - and that's not a safe indicator either!

I saw you get bashed in another thread earlier for your post count and way it was achieved, and the sad fact is that even if the poster was right in that criticism, it's still a sad reminder of how things have gone a little wrong here. Your 'congratulations' posts are every bit as much a part of the community here as my 'how immigration law works' posts (obliquely referring to that thread!) and they should be treated as such. To me, a 'post #######' is someone who posts fast and furious to build up the count just to seem important, and worse, who then uses that apparent status to try and assert views that supplant the wisdom of those who really do know. Post whores are the only ones who really know who they are, and while I used the term generically, it's inappropriate in my view for it to be used as a term to be bandied between users. That's something that while not perhaps a violation of the TOS, I would like to see stamped out.

Good Grief... I saw that thread and some of the 'participants' who were laughing and high-5ing about a successful "scolding" are some of the same folks who are active in this thread...

[Andy 2]

There's no way in resetting counts? I don't give advice where I have no idea what's going on. I just came here to find out people's timelines. Well, if my congratulatory is a nusuance to seasoned members, I just will not post anymore. I thought that those who's receiving those messages are happy. But, they're not I guess.

This is not a business, or any benefit to me for posting so much congratulatory. I guess nobody realizes that.

I think you need to read what I said again, and not presume it was an attack!