Anyone know anything about wiring?

[sparkofcreation 0]

We're kind of in the middle of an emergency and I don't know where else to turn.

We have a house built in the late 60s/early 70s that was clearly renovated (in about 2004) by an idiot who had no concern for safety or building codes or anything else.

We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to put the chandelier back up.

So we thought fine, we'll just stick in a lightweight fixture for now until we can get a pro out to re-do the box, since we eventually want to replace all the ceiling fixtures anyway.

However, for a few reasons related to how flimsy and badly-installed the box is, we don't think it's really safe to put anything back on it--the holes to screw a mounting strip onto are stripped, for one thing, so they don't really hold securely.

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we can't have bare, live wires sticking out of a hole in the ceiling, but there's also no way we can leave the breaker off indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Better to ask this question at a hardware store like a Lowe's, Ace or Home Depot where they know what they're talking about. Best of luck!

Edited March 18, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[GaryC 7]

We're kind of in the middle of an emergency and I don't know where else to turn.

We have a house built in the late 60s/early 70s that was clearly renovated (in about 2004) by an idiot who had no concern for safety or building codes or anything else.

We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to put the chandelier back up.

So we thought fine, we'll just stick in a lightweight fixture for now until we can get a pro out to re-do the box, since we eventually want to replace all the ceiling fixtures anyway.

However, for a few reasons related to how flimsy and badly-installed the box is, we don't think it's really safe to put anything back on it--the holes to screw a mounting strip onto are stripped, for one thing, so they don't really hold securely.

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we can't have bare, live wires sticking out of a hole in the ceiling, but there's also no way we can leave the breaker off indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.

In bold is your biggest problem. Aluminum wiring is famous for working it's way loose at light switches and fixtures. You should think about having it replaced. About the ceiling box. If you have drywall they make boxes that have long arms that swing out to spread out the load. Go to a good hardware store and tell them your situation.

If you want to cap the wires off until you can get a electrician out that can be done. Get yourself some red wire nuts. Twist them on tight making sure none of the bare wire is exposed. Then put several wraps of electrical tape over the wire nuts extending down over the wire to make sure they don't come off. You should be good then.

[sparkofcreation 0]

We're kind of in the middle of an emergency and I don't know where else to turn.

We have a house built in the late 60s/early 70s that was clearly renovated (in about 2004) by an idiot who had no concern for safety or building codes or anything else.

We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to put the chandelier back up.

So we thought fine, we'll just stick in a lightweight fixture for now until we can get a pro out to re-do the box, since we eventually want to replace all the ceiling fixtures anyway.

However, for a few reasons related to how flimsy and badly-installed the box is, we don't think it's really safe to put anything back on it--the holes to screw a mounting strip onto are stripped, for one thing, so they don't really hold securely.

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we can't have bare, live wires sticking out of a hole in the ceiling, but there's also no way we can leave the breaker off indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.

In bold is your biggest problem. Aluminum wiring is famous for working it's way loose at light switches and fixtures. You should think about having it replaced. About the ceiling box. If you have drywall they make boxes that have long arms that swing out to spread out the load. Go to a good hardware store and tell them your situation.

If you want to cap the wires off until you can get a electrician out that can be done. Get yourself some red wire nuts. Twist them on tight making sure none of the bare wire is exposed. Then put several wraps of electrical tape over the wire nuts extending down over the wire to make sure they don't come off. You should be good then.

Why red in particular? I would have thought to use the smallest ones, which are grey, but wasn't sure if just capping them off with wire nuts would be enough or if something else needed to be done (for example, we had to get a tube of ... goop ... to put inside the wire nuts because the nuts were only rated for copper wiring).

And as for re-wiring the house ... we're not even sure we're going to stay in Albuquerque more than another year or two, so I don't know that we want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on having the wiring re-done.

Thanks!

Edited March 18, 2007 by sparkofcreation

[Yodrak 7]

sparkofcreation,

Go to a hardware or home improvement store and by a package of 'wire nuts' - plastic caps that you can screw onto the exposed conductor at the end of each of the 3 wires. One nut on each wire, since you want to keep them from touching each other or anything else. You can also buy a blank plate that will fit over the box, with mounting screws that will line up with the same holes in the box that the fixture screwed into. Shouldn't cost you more than $5 for the wire nuts and cover plate.

Definitely get a licensed electrician to check each and every outlet, switch, and fixture in the house - aluminum wiring is dangerous. You will want a professionally installed copper 'pig tail' - a short piece of copper wire - attached to the end of each aluminum wire. The other end of the copper 'pig tail' will then attach to the switch, outlet, or fixture.

Yodrak

.....

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we can't have bare, live wires sticking out of a hole in the ceiling, but there's also no way we can leave the breaker off indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.

Edited March 18, 2007 by Yodrak

[GaryC 7]

Why red in particular? I would have thought to use the smallest ones, which are grey, but wasn't sure if just capping them off with wire nuts would be enough or if something else needed to be done (for example, we had to get a tube of ... goop ... to put inside the wire nuts because the nuts were only rated for copper wiring).

And as for re-wiring the house ... we're not even sure we're going to stay in Albuquerque more than another year or two, so I don't know that we want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on having the wiring re-done.

Thanks!

They are color coded for wire size. If your wiring is 12ga wire then red is the right one. If you have 14ga wire then blue is the right size. If you have doubt ask at the hardware store. Putting wire nuts and tape is a good temporary solution. But I would have all your outlets and fixtures checked out. Aluminum wire can work loose and arc. That can cause a fire. I cannot stress that part enough.

[Yodrak 7]

sparkofcreation,

Did you have a house inspection done before you bought this place? If so, did they tell you about the aluminum wiring?

You know the issue exists, you are required to let potential buyers know about it. Any savy buyer who looks at this house is going to want to have the wiring shortcoming resolved, either you do it or they'll take it off the offering price. It will probably cost you less if you fix the problem. You don't necessarily have to have the wiring replaced - as I wrote in my previous post, installing copper 'pig tails' should solve the potential problem and be less expensive.

Yodrak

And as for re-wiring the house ... we're not even sure we're going to stay in Albuquerque more than another year or two, so I don't know that we want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on having the wiring re-done.

Thanks!

Edited March 18, 2007 by Yodrak

[GaryC 7]

sparkofcreation,

Did you have a house inspection done before you bought this place? If so, did they tell you about the aluminum wiring?

You know the issue exists, you are required to let potential buyers know about it. Any savy buyer who looks at this house is going to want to have the wiring shortcoming resolved, either you do it or they'll take it off the offering price. It will probably cost you less if you fix the problem. You don't necessarily have to have the wiring replaced - as I wrote in my previous post, installing copper 'pig tails' should solve the potential problem and be less expensive.

Yodrak

And as for re-wiring the house ... we're not even sure we're going to stay in Albuquerque more than another year or two, so I don't know that we want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on having the wiring re-done.

Thanks!

It all depends on the local code. Pigtails are the cheaper way to go but it isn't allowed in some areas. A local electrician will be able to tell you.

[PlatyPius 5]

Pigtailing aluminum wire isn't allowed here. It can only be replaced. New Mexico is probably a little more lax, though; although Albuquerque, being a "trendy" city, might be different.

What I would do:

Locate a ceiling joist closest to the hole in your ceiling.

cut out the drywall/plaster/adobe/whatever in a circle, centered over the joist

install a shallow circular box directly to the joist.

Repair/patch the hole where the former box was.

Attach a lighter-weight light fixture and call it good.

Failing that, what Gary and Yodrak have said is correct; wire nuts, electrical tape, and a junction box blank plate.

I don't know what style your house is, but track lighting, since it is supported by screws in the track, might be a good permanent (cheap) solution. The plate that mounts over the box puts no weight on it, so an "iffy" box isn't that big of a deal. You could get the plate, one piece of track, and 3 "cans" for $50-$100.

I'll repeat it too.... Aluminum wiring is mega-dangerous and is banned in any new construction. Houses in some states aren't allowed to be sold with aluminum wiring in place.

[Yodrak 7]

Iniibig ko si Luz forever,

Good advice.

Yodrak

sparkofcreation,

Did you have a house inspection done before you bought this place? If so, did they tell you about the aluminum wiring?

You know the issue exists, you are required to let potential buyers know about it. Any savy buyer who looks at this house is going to want to have the wiring shortcoming resolved, either you do it or they'll take it off the offering price. It will probably cost you less if you fix the problem. You don't necessarily have to have the wiring replaced - as I wrote in my previous post, installing copper 'pig tails' should solve the potential problem and be less expensive.

Yodrak

It all depends on the local code. Pigtails are the cheaper way to go but it isn't allowed in some areas. A local electrician will be able to tell you.

[GaryC 7]

Lowes has ceiling fixture boxes for things like this.

If your not particularly savvy with the home improvement stuff then call an electrician. Don't take chances with electricity. I would hate to see you have a fire.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Iniibig ko si Luz forever

[sparkofcreation 0]

Yes, we had a full structural inspection done and yes, we were told about the aluminum wiring. We were also told (both by our Realtor and the inspector--btw we and the seller split the cost of the inspection 50/50) that this is common in houses of the age of this one and nothing to worry about. We do know that while the wiring is aluminum, it is not the original wiring of the house, i.e. that the house has already been re-wired at least once since it was built. We do have all the required GFCIs and three-prong grounded outlets and everything--believe me, I've lived in places that didn't! We were told by the inspector that the *only* problems with the house were a stuck blade in the garbage disposal and some loose shingles (and that is what the written report says). Of course, he did fail to notice that the hot water valve on the washer hookup was completely and utterly wrecked (we don't know how, we saw him going into the laundry room with a hose and bucket, what on earth did he do in there if he wasn't testing the hookups?).

We will, of course, be calling the inspector tomorrow about the dangerous condition of the ceiling light box, which I assume will be covered under the warranty.

Given the size and layout of the house, the living room (where we want to install the fan) is really far from the attic access (U-shaped house, LR in one leg, access in the garage which is the other leg), so I think we'll be getting an electrician in.

Now safely capped, taped, and with a blank plate mostly covering the hole. Hole was sort of egg-shaped so there's a bit where the plate doesn't cover it.

Edited March 19, 2007 by sparkofcreation

[GaryC 7]

Yes, we had a full structural inspection done and yes, we were told about the aluminum wiring. We were also told (both by our Realtor and the inspector--btw we and the seller split the cost of the inspection 50/50) that this is common in houses of the age of this one and nothing to worry about. We do know that while the wiring is aluminum, it is not the original wiring of the house, i.e. that the house has already been re-wired at least once since it was built. We do have all the required GFCIs and three-prong grounded outlets and everything--believe me, I've lived in places that didn't! We were told by the inspector that the *only* problems with the house were a stuck blade in the garbage disposal and some loose shingles (and that is what the written report says). Of course, he did fail to notice that the hot water valve on the washer hookup was completely and utterly wrecked (we don't know how, we saw him going into the laundry room with a hose and bucket, what on earth did he do in there if he wasn't testing the hookups?).

We will, of course, be calling the inspector tomorrow about the dangerous condition of the ceiling light box, which I assume will be covered under the warranty.

Given the size and layout of the house, the living room (where we want to install the fan) is really far from the attic access (U-shaped house, LR in one leg, access in the garage which is the other leg), so I think we'll be getting an electrician in.

I really don't want to scare you but let me relate an experience I had. My first house that I lived in was built in the 70's when this nasty aluminum wiring was being used. I hadn't been through electrical school yet so I didn't know any better. One day I had a light that was flashing on and off. I took the cover off the switch and turned the switch on. When I did I got a nasty blue arc that was burning a hole in the plastic box!!!!! It would have started a fire eventually. Luckly the local code allowed me to put in pigtails. When I went through all the boxes I had 4 that were burning through. The house was a death trap. Please don't let this wait.

[sparkofcreation 0]

Lowes has ceiling fixture boxes for things like this.

If your not particularly savvy with the home improvement stuff then call an electrician. Don't take chances with electricity. I would hate to see you have a fire.

BTW I got your PM but I've been having trouble lately with the PMs I send not actually getting sent, so my apologies if you don't get my reply.

The gist of it is a repetition of the post above, with the addition that every outlet was tested; how were we to know that aluminum wiring was a problem when this is the newest place either of us has ever lived and the realtor and inspector told us it was fine; and that I am totally never buying a house again.

Edited March 19, 2007 by sparkofcreation

[Boiler 46,569]

Lowes has ceiling fixture boxes for things like this.

If your not particularly savvy with the home improvement stuff then call an electrician. Don't take chances with electricity. I would hate to see you have a fire.

BTW I got your PM but I've been having trouble lately with the PMs I send not actually getting sent, so my apologies if you don't get my reply.

The gist of it is a repetition of the post above, with the addition that every outlet was tested; how were we to know that aluminum wiring was a problem when this is the newest place either of us has ever lived and the realtor and inspector told us it was fine; and that I am totally never buying a house again.

Reminds me of the first house that I bought in he UK, had the original rubber insulated wiring. Went to replace it and the stuff disintegrated in my hands.

I did not realise aluminium was used in wiring in the 70's, sort of assumed it had been banned by then. It was popular at a time copper was expensive, definitely something to be replaced.