N-400 February 2016 Filers

[ryna 132]

Well.. Back home and blood pressure is going back down.

I got a little more info from my wife which was criss-crossed because of the post-interview rush to get back to the office. At the very least, the name on her certificate will be the name she wants. What happened is that he decided that her current name legal was FN, Birth MN, Married LN (New York-style) despite having a GC with a different MN. (And, it didn't help that her birth middle name and birth last name both start with A and that her GC, DL and SS card only show her middle initial, not her full middle name, although the GC clearly shows her full name including the full, correct middle name on the back). So, in effect, her name on the Naturalization Certificate will be changing to... what it is already on ALL of her legal docs.

She's still going to try to go tomorrow to clarify and see if maybe a supervisor with Florida name change law knowledge can convince him that a judge doesn't need to be involved. Barring that, since Orlando holds judicial ceremonies monthly, I just hope that, being June 2nd, she can get into the June ceremony or, at worst, the July one.

One last issue that now bothers me... She put in a service request with USCIS when she couldn't schedule an InfoPass. They said to expect a reply on or before June 24. This won't cause them to freeze her case until they review it, will it? Can it be cancelled?

Haha USCIS is under Homeland Security so they ARE the Federal Govt, but I get what you mean

I told my SIL that the government has pictures of her, and she was like "I hope they were nice pictures!"

I know. It was just that someone who really understands the Federal government's general methods of operation even said USCIS is something else!

Edited June 2, 2016 by ryna

[ryna 132]

Now, for the actual interview...

She entered, went through the swearing in, answered the review questions "Have you ever...." He asked her about the name change. She said no, it was already changed back at AOS. He said no it wasn't, looked at her GC, SS Card, DL (which all just show middle initial) and decided that it stood for her birth middle name not her current middle name because the Florida marriage license only lists maiden name. She pointed out that the back of the GC had the entire middle name on it and he said that was "just the name you asked to be called when you filed for LPR, not a legal name change because no judge approved it" (Sooo not the law in Florida, but...).

Then, she answered the 6 questions and the read/write part and she was done.

The six questions were:

What group of people was taken to America and sold as slaves?

Why did the colonists fight the British?

What is the name of the Vice President of the United States now?

What is the highest court in the United States?

How many justices are on the Supreme Court?

What is the political party of the President now?

She then read and wrote the following.

Read: Who can vote?

Write: Citizens can vote?

He then made some small talk and then told her she needed a judicial ceremony because of the name change and would receive a letter in the mail after it is scheduled.

More and more I am convinced that the IO is a fairly recent transplant from another state (NY) and is unfamiliar with the documents/laws here.

To be continued....

Edited June 3, 2016 by ryna

[Caryh 5,206]

1) that the name change has to follow the convention in the place of residence

That is the crux of the problem, a single individual is deciding what the convention for the place of residence is. But she has no need for a name change, she's already using her legal name that meets the convention of the local area or it would not be on her drivers license. This guy is forcing a name change on her that she doesn't want because he doesn't like what her legal name is.

[Caryh 5,206]

isn't it funny how if our USC spouses hadn't married us foreign spouses, that they would never have even known about all this immigration BS? My in-laws are always in awe of how much #### we've been through and HAD TO PAY FOR.

I get people who have never done anything with USCIS telling me things that are totally wrong about immigration all the time. Its amazing the amount of ignorance there is about immigration law with the general public. But I guess you can say that about most topics.

[JimmyHou 611]

That is the crux of the problem, a single individual is deciding what the convention for the place of residence is. But she has no need for a name change, she's already using her legal name that meets the convention of the local area or it would not be on her drivers license. This guy is forcing a name change on her that she doesn't want because he doesn't like what her legal name is.

Very possibly in many cases.

But the interviewer also has a second guideline (also derived from federal law) from his agency telling him that he needs to see a document stating the applicants full legal name. As you said above, many marriage certificates don't do that. So I don't think it's totally arbitrary on the interviewer's part. If it we're, there wouldn't be so many applicants being told exactly the same thing about middle name changes by so many different interviewers. There appears to be a general policy that is inconsistent with state laws, but that some interviewers, who are familiar with these laws, end up applying them correctly.

It basically comes down to which of the two guidelines the interviewer decides to follow: adhere to state law or ask to see a document with the full name. In some cases there's no conflict because the marriage certificate will show the full name. But when it doesn't, I think in most cases, the interviewer will take the easier (for him) route and not bother to look up state law. It's more about laziness than really caring what the legal name is.

[ryna 132]

That is the crux of the problem, a single individual is deciding what the convention for the place of residence is. But she has no need for a name change, she's already using her legal name that meets the convention of the local area or it would not be on her drivers license. This guy is forcing a name change on her that she doesn't want because he doesn't like what her legal name is.

It's more like he's forcing her back to her maiden name only so it can be changed back to her married name on the Certificate. There was a lot of confusion initially because he was crossed out and changed the names on her N-400 form several times (showing his OWN confusion on the matter.) The problem is, she is already legally known by her married name according to the State of Florida and the Federal Government (Social Security Administration and USCIS themselves!) and a court order changing her name to what it has already been for over 5 years can't help in any way (that I can think of). He insisted that she needed to show a previous court order to use her married name.

Anyhow, unfortunately, all of the IDs/cards themselves (except the GC) only show her middle initial, not her full, current middle name. So, before heading back to USCIS, she's going to go the the SSA to see if they can give her something that lists her FULL name and maybe she'll go to the FL DMV as well to do the same, since her license only shows her middle initial as well. She also has letter that USCIS has sent her over the years in her full, married legal name.

I only hope she can get into the office without an appointment because InfoPass always comes back saying nothing is available, please check back later.

We've made it to the last step of this process without so much as a single RFE but USCIS keeps screwing up the process at almost every phase. I'm about ready to call an attorney (who obviously understands Florida name change laws) to put an end to this nonsense!

[Caryh 5,206]

Very possibly in many cases.

But the interviewer also has a second guideline (also derived from federal law) from his agency telling him that he needs to see a document stating the applicants full legal name. As you said above, many marriage certificates don't do that. So I don't think it's totally arbitrary on the interviewer's part. If it we're, there wouldn't be so many applicants being told exactly the same thing about middle name changes by so many different interviewers. There appears to be a general policy that is inconsistent with state laws, but that some interviewers, who are familiar with these laws, end up applying them correctly.

It basically comes down to which of the two guidelines the interviewer decides to follow: adhere to state law or ask to see a document with the full name. In some cases there's no conflict because the marriage certificate will show the full name. But when it doesn't, I think in most cases, the interviewer will take the easier (for him) route and not bother to look up state law. It's more about laziness than really caring what the legal name is.

I wish all states had marriage certificates that stated the full name after marriage, as well as the full name before marriage. It just takes all the ambiguity out of the situation. Right now most states have very vague laws on the name after marriage, so bureaucrats are wide open to make up their own rules on the subject. And most states seem to use the marriage certificate that only shows the name before marriage, leaving it up to the married parties struggle on their own to get their names after marriage as they like it. All it would take is one extra line on the marriage certificate to clear the entire problem up.

[ryna 132]

Very possibly in many cases.

But the interviewer also has a second guideline (also derived from federal law) from his agency telling him that he needs to see a document stating the applicants full legal name. As you said above, many marriage certificates don't do that. So I don't think it's totally arbitrary on the interviewer's part. If it we're, there wouldn't be so many applicants being told exactly the same thing about middle name changes by so many different interviewers. There appears to be a general policy that is inconsistent with state laws, but that some interviewers, who are familiar with these laws, end up applying them correctly.

It basically comes down to which of the two guidelines the interviewer decides to follow: adhere to state law or ask to see a document with the full name. In some cases there's no conflict because the marriage certificate will show the full name. But when it doesn't, I think in most cases, the interviewer will take the easier (for him) route and not bother to look up state law. It's more about laziness than really caring what the legal name is.

USCIS already accepted her legal name change at AOS. Otherwise, her GC would not have been issued in her married name as she wants it to be. I might understand it if it hadn't been accepted 5 years ago but it was and every other form of ID she has is based upon that change.

Edited June 3, 2016 by ryna

[Helpme123 9]

I know I had never even heard of them before I met my wife. And, that my lifelong USC parents have said "That's absolutely ridiculous!!" more than once during this process. And, this coming from my Mom who worked for the Federal Government for 40 years! (NOT USCIS!! lol)

I get people who have never done anything with USCIS telling me things that are totally wrong about immigration all the time. Its amazing the amount of ignorance there is about immigration law with the general public. But I guess you can say that about most topics.

isn't it funny how if our USC spouses hadn't married us foreign spouses, that they would never have even known about all this immigration BS? My in-laws are always in awe of how much #### we've been through and HAD TO PAY FOR.

Yeah my in-laws are surprised at how much time and money I have spent to become a USC legally when there are so many illegal immigrants being supported by the very same government! It's such a joke.

This whole process feels like a slap in the face when nothing is done about millions of people who have overstayed or come to the US illegally. And in some aspects the illegal immigrants are being treated better than citizens and immigrants coming here legally.

So much blindness and corruption. smh

Edit: I'm very grateful I have four other citizenship's to safe/free countries which I can move my family to if we ever decide to leave the US.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Helpme123

[JimmyHou 611]

It's more like he's forcing her back to her maiden name only so it can be changed back to her married name on the Certificate. There was a lot of confusion initially because he was crossed out and changed the names on her N-400 form several times (showing his OWN confusion on the matter.) The problem is, she is already legally known by her married name according to the State of Florida and the Federal Government (Social Security Administration and USCIS themselves!) and a court order changing her name to what it has already been for over 5 years can't help in any way (that I can think of). He insisted that she needed to show a previous court order to use her married name.

Anyhow, unfortunately, all of the IDs/cards themselves (except the GC) only show her middle initial, not her full, current middle name. So, before heading back to USCIS, she's going to go the the SSA to see if they can give her something that lists her FULL name and maybe she'll go to the FL DMV as well to do the same, since her license only shows her middle initial as well. She also has letter that USCIS has sent her over the years in her full, married legal name.

I only hope she can get into the office without an appointment because InfoPass always comes back saying nothing is available, please check back later.

We've made it to the last step of this process without so much as a single RFE but USCIS keeps screwing up the process at almost every phase. I'm about ready to call an attorney (who obviously understands Florida name change laws) to put an end to this nonsense!

At this point the only thing you're pushing for is an administrative ceremony versus a judicial ceremony, correct?

I mean, either way your wife is going to end up with the name that she wants, correct?

[Caryh 5,206]

It's more like he's forcing her back to her maiden name only so it can be changed back to her married name on the Certificate. There was a lot of confusion initially because he was crossed out and changed the names on her N-400 form several times (showing his OWN confusion on the matter.) The problem is, she is already legally known by her married name according to the State of Florida and the Federal Government (Social Security Administration and USCIS themselves!) and a court order changing her name to what it has already been for over 5 years can't help in any way (that I can think of). He insisted that she needed to show a previous court order to use her married name.

Anyhow, unfortunately, all of the IDs/cards themselves (except the GC) only show her middle initial, not her full, current middle name. So, before heading back to USCIS, she's going to go the the SSA to see if they can give her something that lists her FULL name and maybe she'll go to the FL DMV as well to do the same, since her license only shows her middle initial as well. She also has letter that USCIS has sent her over the years in her full, married legal name.

I only hope she can get into the office without an appointment because InfoPass always comes back saying nothing is available, please check back later.

We've made it to the last step of this process without so much as a single RFE but USCIS keeps screwing up the process at almost every phase. I'm about ready to call an attorney (who obviously understands Florida name change laws) to put an end to this nonsense!

My wife's SS card shows her full name, including her maiden name having been moved to the middle name position. Maybe you should check that? Her green card only shows her middle initial. I think because they were running out of space, both her middle name and my last name are rather long.

[ryna 132]

At this point the only thing you're pushing for is an administrative ceremony versus a judicial ceremony, correct?

I mean, either way your wife is going to end up with the name that she wants, correct?

That would be fine, really. I am, however, a bit concerned that:

a) a judge isn't going to issue a court order for a name change cased on marriage that doesn't need one (or will wonder why someone is presenting themselves under a prior name),

b) that an order issued 5+ years after the change was already legally made will cause issues with everything (accounts, deeds, licenses, etc) that occurred between 2011-2016 under her married name. If it "didn't happen" until 2016, there could be problems with prior actions.

[ryna 132]

My wife's SS card shows her full name, including her maiden name having been moved to the middle name position. Maybe you should check that? Her green card only shows her middle initial. I think because they were running out of space, both her middle name and my last name are rather long.

Her GC shows initial on the front but full name on the back (full married name, maiden as middle). The SS Card only shows initial on front (as does mine). Shes going to the SSA office to see if they can provide her something that shows that she is on file under her married name (she is), and not under her maiden middle name (which unfortunately starts with the same letter.)

[JimmyHou 611]

That would be fine, really. I am, however, a bit concerned that:

a) a judge isn't going to issue a court order for a name change cased on marriage that doesn't need one (or will wonder why someone is presenting themselves under a prior name),

b) that an order issued 5+ years after the change was already legally made will cause issues with everything (accounts, deeds, licenses, etc) that occurred between 2011-2016 under her married name. If it "didn't happen" until 2016, there could be problems with prior actions.

A) All the judge will see is the birth certificate copy and the name change request. This won't be an issue.

People get married all the time without changing their names and want to do so later, to their married names or to something else. The judge will just approve it. Also, this is a federal judge and not a state judge, not that it really matters.

B) There will be no problems. First of all, people use different versions of their names all the time. That's precisely why all the documents you're talking about are not accepted by USCIS as proof of legal name. Not even a passport. Only a birth certificate, marriage certificate, divorce decree, or name change order. I have 3 different versions of my name on my passport, drivers license, and green card. Secondly, you have your marriage certificate proving the name change back to the date of the wedding. Getting another document proving the same name change later doesn't invalidate your wife's older documents.

Neither of these things are remotely worth worrying about, but if you'll feel better, you can consult a lawyer.

Edited June 3, 2016 by JimmyHou

[ryna 132]

I think what's really confusing the IO is that he believes she took her married name as First, Maiden Middle, Married Last and is now asking for First, Maiden Last as Middle, Married Last as her legal name. But that doesn't jibe with him telling her that her legal name is her maiden name, unless he was only referring to her middle name... The fact that the middle initial in both cases is 'A' and all except the GC only show the initial, has him convinced that she needs to go to a judge which is not the case!

Edited June 3, 2016 by ryna