N-400 February 2016 Filers

[ryna 132]

We put in a service request that says they'll respond by 6/24. We tried to program an INFOPass and nothing is available. The misinformation line basically said that her legal name has already been changed but that they can't do a thing to get her back into the local office, that it is at the discretion of the guards at the door whether to let her enter without an appointment...

I just knew USCIS was going to screw us over one more time on the way out the door!!

[Caryh 5,206]

We put in a service request that says they'll respond by 6/24. We tried to program an INFOPass and nothing is available. The misinformation line basically said that her legal name has already been changed but that they can't do a thing to get her back into the local office, that it is at the discretion of the guards at the door whether to let her enter without an appointment...

I just knew USCIS was going to screw us over one more time on the way out the door!!

So the real reason for the name change with citizenship is the agent told her that her previous maiden name can not be her new middle name, when it already was her new middle name. So they changed the middle name back to what was on her birth certificate, which was likely her mother's maiden name, if they follow the same traditions my wife's country does.

[JimmyHou 611]

If you don't mind my butting in...

What was the change to her name?

Her birth name is her legal name unless changed by a court ordered name change (not the case here) or a marriage certificate (this is the case).

If a marriage certificate is used as proof of name change, the only changes allowed are for one spouse to take the last name of the other spouse in place of the original last name or for the names to be hyphenated. Any other change requires a legal name change. That includes adding, changing, or removing first names and middle names, or changing the last name in any way except as stated above.

Let me give you an example to show my understanding of the rules here:

If your wife's name is Alice Jane Stevens, and you are John Jacob Caryh, then she should be able to become Alice Jane Caryh, or Alice Jane Caryh-Stevens, or Alice Jane Caryh-Stevens without a legal name change.

But, if she wants to become Alice Stevens, or Alice Caryh, or Alice Caryh Stevens or Alice Stevens Caryh or Alice Stevens-Caryh, or Alice Caryh-Stevens, then she would need a legal name change because she is modifying her legal middle name and this isn't authorized through a marriage-based name change.

Having said that, some interview officers will say that it's ok, and ignore the fact that the middle name is changed... this is more convenient at the time of the interview, but isn't consistent with the law and can come back to bite the applicant if they're eventually asked for a name change document (since the marriage certificate wouldn't count as proof of a middle name change).

And sorry... I don't know how to get back in touch with the interviewing officer... is the 2 month delay in the oath critical?

Does your wife remember his name? Maybe write to the office and ask to be contacted?

Edited June 2, 2016 by JimmyHou

[Caryh 5,206]

If a marriage certificate is used as proof of name change, the only changes allowed are for one spouse to take the last name of the other spouse in place of the original last name or for the names to be hyphenated. Any other change requires a legal name change. That includes adding, changing, or removing first names and middle names, or changing the last name in any way except as stated above.

Let me give you an example to show my understanding of the rules here:

If your wife's name is Alice Jane Stevens, and you are John Jacob Caryh, then she should be able to become Alice Jane Caryh, or Alice Jane Caryh-Stevens, or Alice Jane Caryh-Stevens without a legal name change.

This is completely not correct. Name changes based on marriage is controlled by state law. There is no universal rule, and very few states even specify how you can change you name after marriage in the USA. The only state I know of that does not legally allow changing the middle name when you marry is New York. In my state, you're even allowed to change your first name. My first wife changed her first, middle and last name when we married here, and it did not require going to court to change the name. There are many bureaucrats that will tell you what you can and cannot do with your name after marriage, but this is most often personal opinion and not based on any laws in the state.

[ryna 132]

If you don't mind my butting in...

What was the change to her name?

Her birth name is her legal name unless changed by a court ordered name change (not the case here) or a marriage certificate (this is the case).

If a marriage certificate is used as proof of name change, the only changes allowed are for one spouse to take the last name of the other spouse in place of the original last name or for the names to be hyphenated. Any other change requires a legal name change. That includes adding, changing, or removing first names and middle names, or changing the last name in any way except as stated above.

Let me give you an example to show my understanding of the rules here:

If your wife's name is Alice Jane Stevens, and you are John Jacob Caryh, then she should be able to become Alice Jane Caryh, or Alice Jane Caryh-Stevens, or Alice Jane Caryh-Stevens without a legal name change.

But, if she wants to become Alice Stevens, or Alice Caryh, or Alice Caryh Stevens or Alice Stevens Caryh or Alice Stevens-Caryh, or Alice Caryh-Stevens, then she would need a legal name change because she is modifying her legal middle name and this isn't authorized through a marriage-based name change.

Having said that, some interview officers will say that it's ok, and ignore the fact that the middle name is changed... this is more convenient at the time of the interview, but isn't consistent with the law and can come back to bite the applicant if they're eventually asked for a name change document (since the marriage certificate wouldn't count as proof of a middle name change).

That is the case -- Birth First Name - Birth Last Name (as middle) - Married Last Name (via marriage license), so it could be. That said, I know that both of my grandmothers changed their names in a similar manner (both in the U.S., neither an immigrant and both way before I was born) so it's not unusual or uncommon. But, I have no idea if they had to go to court for that type of change and I can no longer ask them. Plus, both were in a different state..

Anyhow, the court oath isn't really a problem since they hold one every month but what concerns me, and I didn't see the form with my own eyes, is that she says signed something that had First Name - (Birth) Middle Name - Married last name on it somewhere and he said that her current legal name is her birth name, so even in the 'can't change middle name' scenario, why wouldn't it currently be First - Birth Middle - Married Last? It looks like he might be changing her legal name from her birth name to a name that she doesn't need a court order to change? And, what about the name she's been using since her EAD arrived? I'm confused.

The bottom line is she needs to be able to confirm the name that will be on her certificate is what she wants (and that has been on all for her IDs - Federal and state, not to mention all of our accounts, for over 5 years), whether it needs to be done via court order or not, and USCIS is one of the most inaccessible agencies that I have ever dealt with so we don't know how to contact them before they schedule her for an Oath using potentially bad info.

The Orlando USCIS office opens at 7AM. I think she'll go there tomorrow morning at opening with her "You passed" letter and see if they'll let her in to verify the name submitted for the certificate. Otherwise, I doubt USCIS will act on her service request before the Oath is scheduled and InfoPass says "Nothing available at this time". The info line agent said to keep trying because people sometimes cancel but that could take weeks or even months to find an open slot...

[charmander 692]

If a marriage certificate is used as proof of name change, the only changes allowed are for one spouse to take the last name of the other spouse in place of the original last name or for the names to be hyphenated. Any other change requires a legal name change. That includes adding, changing, or removing first names and middle names, or changing the last name in any way except as stated above.

this might be different for each state. My wife and I got married in California. In CA, couples can write whatever they want on the "new name" section of the marriage certificate. My wife dropped her maiden middle name, took her maiden last name as her current middle name, and my last name as her current last name. There is no hyphens and such. As an example Anne Mary Smith, could very well become Anne Smith Jones. No court order was necessary to make that change.

[ryna 132]

This is completely not correct. Name changes based on marriage is controlled by state law. There is no universal rule, and very few states even specify how you can change you name after marriage in the USA. The only state I know of that does not legally allow changing the middle name when you marry is New York. In my state, you're even allowed to change your first name. My first wife changed her first, middle and last name when we married here, and it did not require going to court to change the name. There are many bureaucrats that will tell you what you can and cannot do with your name after marriage, but this is most often personal opinion and not based on any laws in the state.

I just checked and found this:

1. Florida brides can take their husband's surname and move their maiden name to become a middle name.

Interesting that you point out the New York angle because this area is absolutely loaded with recent New York transplants and there is a not so slim chance that the IO is one of them....

Now, the question becomes: How do we fix this quickly and get her back into the line for an Administrative Oath?

USCIS , once again, leaves us jumping through hoops for no good reason...

this might be different for each state. My wife and I got married in California. In CA, couples can write whatever they want on the "new name" section of the marriage certificate. My wife dropped her maiden middle name, took her maiden last name as her current middle name, and my last name as her current last name. There is no hyphens and such. As an example Anne Mary Smith, could very well become Anne Smith Jones. No court order was necessary to make that change.

Exactly what my wife did! And, legal in FL too! This is going to delay her Oath and cause us headaches for no good reason!

[JimmyHou 611]

This is completely not correct. Name changes based on marriage is controlled by state law. There is no universal rule, and very few states even specify how you can change you name after marriage in the USA. The only state I know of that does not legally allow changing the middle name when you marry is New York. In my state, you're even allowed to change your first name. My first wife changed her first, middle and last name when we married here, and it did not require going to court to change the name. There are many bureaucrats that will tell you what you can and cannot do with your name after marriage, but this is most often personal opinion and not based on any laws in the state.

Sorry. My bad. You're absolutely right about state law...I didn't mean to imply that all state laws are the same. I meant to say that USCIS only recognizes name changes as I described above. I think that's basically what they told the applicant at the interview and the husband on the phone.

We can argue about whether or not USCIS should have to recognize Florida state law on the matter, but convincing them to do so will take longer than waiting for a judicial ceremony. Then again it may be worth a shot... as I said in my first post and as another poster mentioned, they do sometimes allow this, although in most cases, they seem to insist that a middle name requires a court ordered name change.

Edited June 2, 2016 by JimmyHou

[JimmyHou 611]

One more question... does the marriage certificate actually state her new name?

In some states the certificate only lists the maiden name and the husband's name... these are the certificates that USCIS says can only be used for changes to last names.

But if the certificate actually lists her full new name on it, then it should have been recognized.

[Caryh 5,206]

Sorry. My bad. You're absolutely right about state law...I didn't mean to imply that all state laws are the same. I meant to say that USCIS only recognizes name changes as I described above. I think that's basically what they told the applicant at the interview and the husband on the phone.

We can argue about whether or not USCIS should have to recognize Florida state law on the matter, but convincing them to do so will take longer than waiting for a judicial ceremony. Then again it may be worth a shot... as I said in my first post and as another poster mentioned, they do sometimes allow this, although in most cases, they seem to insist that a middle name requires a court ordered name change.

USCIS has no problem with the maiden last name moving to the middle name position. The OP's wife did it and so did mine. It was on her EAD and both green cards. USCIS goes by local laws relating to this, as name changes are not federal jurisdiction. This naming convention is the only way her married name can appear legally in her home country, unless she keeps her maiden name or goes by Mrs Caryho, not even having a name of her own. The latter is something that just boggles my mind that anyone would accept such a name. In this case the fact the Florida DMV accepted the name is further proof its acceptable under Florida state law. DMV's are the first place people run into problems with this naming convention, which is quite common in many countries.

[ryna 132]

One more question... does the marriage certificate actually state her new name?

In some states the certificate only lists the maiden name and the husband's name... these are the certificates that USCIS says can only be used for changes to last names.

But if the certificate actually lists her full new name on it, then it should have been recognized.

No, Florida only has maiden name and, if previously married, "Current" last name, if it is still legally the prior spouse's last name. Since neither of us were previously married, that wasn't an issue.

[JimmyHou 611]

USCIS has no problem with the maiden last name moving to the middle name position. The OP's wife did it and so did mine. It was on her EAD and both green cards. USCIS goes by local laws relating to this, as name changes are not federal jurisdiction. This naming convention is the only way her married name can appear legally in her home country, unless she keeps her maiden name or goes by Mrs Caryho, not even having a name of her own. The latter is something that just boggles my mind that anyone would accept such a name. In this case the fact the Florida DMV accepted the name is further proof its acceptable under Florida state law. DMV's are the first place people run into problems with this naming convention, which is quite common in many countries.

There are quite a few posts on here about people being forced to do legal name changes in this exact situation.

So USCIS does have a problem with this at the point of naturalization. They don't apply this "rule" consistently, but what's new about that?

I wouldn't go by what's on EADs and Green Cards. The name on my green card doesn't match my passport or birth certificate and I have no name change document or marriage certificate to explain that. I just used a shortened name and they were fine with it. That's quite common for people from my part of the world, but I'm sure that at the interview, they'll use the name on my birth certificate, which I entered as my legal name.

But, I think you're arguing about what they're supposed to do. I agree with you. But it's not what they actually do in many cases.

[Caryh 5,206]

One more question... does the marriage certificate actually state her new name?

In some states the certificate only lists the maiden name and the husband's name... these are the certificates that USCIS says can only be used for changes to last names.

But if the certificate actually lists her full new name on it, then it should have been recognized.

Those type of marriage certificates, which are quite common, are where people often run into problems. Florida does do it that way too. But I've known many people who used the maiden name into the middle position that have had no problem with USCIS using that name. I think this is likely something you believe is true, rather than something that is written into a USCIS handbook. The problem isn't USCIS not accepting it, its bureaucrats thinking their opinion is the law that causes a problem. If she already had her green card with that naming convention, USCIS must have accepted it.

[Caryh 5,206]

There are quite a few posts on here about people being forced to do legal name changes in this exact situation.

So USCIS does have a problem with this at the point of naturalization. They don't apply this "rule" consistently, but what's new about that?

I wouldn't go by what's on EADs and Green Cards. The name on my green card doesn't match my passport or birth certificate and I have no name change document or marriage certificate to explain that. I just used a shortened name and they were fine with it. That's quite common for people from my part of the world, but I'm sure that at the interview, they'll use the name on my birth certificate, which I entered as my legal name.

But, I think you're arguing about what they're supposed to do. I agree with you. But it's not what they actually do in many cases.

You're likely right there. Its not in any rule book or law, but it is in bureaucrats mind's that it should be that way. I also know people who never managed to get their name changed after marriage because they failed to enter it in the AOS application, using the maiden name instead. They later corrected the problem and got First name, maiden last name, husband's last name during citizenship. I think this is more an issue of agents of USCIS making up their own rules, rather than following the actual rules.

[JimmyHou 611]

Those type of marriage certificates, which are quite common, are where people often run into problems. Florida does do it that way too. But I've known many people who used the maiden name into the middle position that have had no problem with USCIS using that name. I think this is likely something you believe is true, rather than something that is written into a USCIS handbook. The problem isn't USCIS not accepting it, its bureaucrats thinking their opinion is the law that causes a problem. If she already had her green card with that naming convention, USCIS must have accepted it.

Absolutely...

It's like the issue about taking proof of payment of traffic fines to the interview... the instructions say you don't have to, but 5 or 6 times out of 10, you'll be asked for them... so when anyone asks, I tell them to take proof to the interview.

So essentially, the practice put in place by the interviewer effectively changes the rules, because most applicants don't want to annoy an interviewer and will put up with a month long delay.

But if this isn't in a handbook somewhere (which you're likely right about), there is a surprising number of interviewers who think it's true... just going by VJ posts, this happens a lot... the worst case I read about was in Washington, where judicial ceremonies are held only once a year.