Should college fire hijab-wearing professor?

[smilesammich 10,727]

No one wants to admit we have radical christians. lol

i know, it drives me crazy..

[Expat1 971]

How would wearing a long black dress to show solidarity with Christians not stigmatize Christians?

Rather than trying to promote Muslim women as "everyday Americans" like you and me, she's saying "Muslims wear hijabs. They're different than American Jews, Christians, Buddhists and Hindus. Let's celebrate it."

LOL

The christians put Mary in a hijab in every christmas play I've ever been to.

Does that stigmatize muslims or is that an admission that christian ladies covered their head and shoulders too in services and to pray until about 100 years ago?

Edited January 16, 2016 by Expat1

[JayJayH 546]

thanks for breaking that down, i don't disagree with anything you're saying really except for, i don't actively want to disassociate mainstream american islam from conservative islam. i dont feel the need to. if hollywood is doing that, or the media, imo it's about ratings/hype/fear. so what one person does, as a religious protest or whatever a fb comment and wearing a scarf is, can be picked up and turned into a hot topic (and it touches on so many, women's rights, religious rights, evil christian college admins) by our trusty media..i dont know where there's an argument.

I agree.

LOL

The christians put Mary in a hijab in every christmas play I've ever been to.

Does that stigmatize muslims or is that an admission that christian ladies covered their head and shoulders too in services and to pray until about 100 years ago?

Haha, touche, though I'm not sure anyone is arguing that.

Edited January 16, 2016 by JayJayH

[Transborderwife 4,666]

LOL

The christians put Mary in a hijab in every christmas play I've ever been to.

Does that stigmatize muslims or is that an admission that christian ladies covered their head and shoulders too in services and to pray until about 100 years ago?

Actually up until maybe 15 years ago my Christian denomination had most women wearing a hat in church

[Expat1 971]

So..

From a culturally liberal view, the goal is to not associate mainstream Islam with conservative, Saudi / Iranian style Islamism (Be it Sunni or Shia). Correct?

From a culturally liberal view, the goal is to accept and include Muslims as fully integrated members of Western society, viewed no differently than Jews, Christians, Buddhists etc. Correct?

I agree with the above.

The hijab is to Islam, what long black dresses are to Christianity. Agreed? If not, please explain.

In American media, the left side of politics as well as in Hollywood however, long black dresses are associated with fringe elements of Christianity, and in no way equated with the mainstream.

In American media, the left side of politics as well as in Hollywood however, hijabs are increasingly celebrated as, and even widely accepted as a part of, mainstream Islam.

"The Salt Lake Tribune published a photo of fresh-faced teenage girls, who were not Muslim, in the audience at the mosque, their hair covered with long scarves. KSL TV later reported: “The hijab — or headscarf — is a symbol of modesty and dignity. When Muslim women wear headscarves, they are readily identified as followers of Islam.”"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/12/21/as-muslim-women-we-actually-ask-you-not-to-wear-the-hijab-in-the-name-of-interfaith-solidarity/

I'll quote Hawkins here: "This is something I can do for Muslim sisters who are in danger every day,"

I would assume that if you want mainstream Islam to not be associated with conservative Islamism, you would work to disassociate your "Muslim sisters" with conservative Islamism.

Hence, to use an analogy.. As a mainstream Christian, I would roll my eyes at any well-meaning soul wanting to show solidarity with Christians by wearing a long, black dress.

As an isolated act of solidarity, I have no problem with Hawkins' approach. And I'm sure she intended for it to be isolated. Once media began touting it as an act of solidarity with Muslims in general.. I find it scary - From the viewpoint of someone who would genuinely love to see mainstream American Islam throw conservative Islamism, orthodoxy, dogma and headscarves to the fringes.

It is my experience that the hijab is associated with mainstream islam, but the niqab (face covering), abaya (long black robe), (seems) to be cultural.

It is humorous to me that the face covering is required for instance in public in Saudi and a few other places but prohibited in Mecca during Hajj, but Mecca is also in Saudi.

That's sort of an indication that this beekeeper look is just imposed arbitrarily, and where it is imposed it is imposed by elements that are less than peaceful and tolerant. It is possible that the disassociation that you are referring to is between the mainstream and the arbitrary.

[Expat1 971]

Oh, you. You're the one who chronically blocks all religions into the same and refuses to say one is worse than another. But with the last post of yours, my statement, and your affirmation of what I said I can see you no longer believe it (but as I said days ago I never believed you believed it anyway).

I have to tell you that I believe she is right. Our constitution wasn't penned up to protect people from islamic extremism, it was to protect people from the persecution and brutality of christian religious law. History seems to indicate that no matter who is in charge, if they rule by a religious book, it doesn't end well.

[JayJayH 546]

Actually up until maybe 15 years ago my Christian denomination had most women wearing a hat in church

Very true. However, what you're pressured to wear in [fill in house of God] is one thing. What you're pressured to wear outside [fill in house of God] is quite another.

It is my experience that the hijab is associated with mainstream islam, but the niqab (face covering), abaya (long black robe), (seems) to be cultural.

It is humorous to me that the face covering is required for instance in public in Saudi and a few other places but prohibited in Mecca during Hajj, but Mecca is also in Saudi.

That's sort of an indication that this beekeeper look is just imposed arbitrarily, and where it is imposed it is imposed by elements that are less than peaceful and tolerant. It is possible that the disassociation that you are referring to is between the mainstream and the arbitrary.

This is the problem. The hijab today is associated with mainstream Islam. Today. In the 21st century. In the west.

Women haven't been pressured into covering up in mainstream Christianity or Judaism for a very long time. The hijab (or niqab, chador, burqa etc.) and i.e. the expectation that Muslim women marry only Muslim men is the law in virtually every Muslim-majority country, and where it isn't de jure law, it's de facto law, or at the very least, significant social pressure exists.

The fact that this is the case in most Middle Eastern countries isn't really any of my business. The fact that it holds true with mainstream Islam in Europe and to a lesser (yet significant) degree in the U.S., is a problem.

All religions have crazies and frighteningly conservative elements. That isn't the mainstream in most religions. It belongs to the fringe. But in Islam, it has become part of the mainstream.

It's pretty obvious that I'm in the Bill Maher boat as far as Islam goes. I'm also a realist, Islam isn't going anywhere. The problem with Islam isn't that the Quran is an incredibly violent book, meant for 7th century audience. So is the Old Testament. Anyone can cherry-pick a holy book to work in sync with 2016 western values. The problem with Islam is that mainstream Islam today, even in the West, is where mainstream Christianity was 200, 300 years ago.

I would truly welcome Islam into the 21st century as just "any other religion." Until the mainstream escapes the domains of Christianity's and Judaism's fringes however, I don't see it happening.

I have to tell you that I believe she is right. Our constitution wasn't penned up to protect people from islamic extremism, it was to protect people from the persecution and brutality of christian religious law. History seems to indicate that no matter who is in charge, if they rule by a religious book, it doesn't end well.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Edited January 16, 2016 by JayJayH

[Expat1 971]

Very true. However, what you're pressured to wear in [fill in house of God] is one thing. What you're pressured to wear outside [fill in house of God] is quite another.

This is the problem. The hijab today is associated with mainstream Islam. Today. In the 21st century. In the west.

Women haven't been pressured into covering up in mainstream Christianity or Judaism for a very long time. The hijab (or niqab, chador, burqa etc.) and i.e. the expectation that Muslim women marry only Muslim men is the law in virtually every Muslim-majority country, and where it isn't de jure law, it's de facto law, or at the very least, significant social pressure exists.

The fact that this is the case in most Middle Eastern countries isn't really any of my business. The fact that it holds true with mainstream Islam in Europe and to a lesser (yet significant) degree in the U.S., is a problem.

All religions have crazies and frighteningly conservative elements. That isn't the mainstream in most religions. It belongs to the fringe. But in Islam, it has become part of the mainstream.

It's pretty obvious that I'm in the Bill Maher boat as far as Islam goes. I'm also a realist, Islam isn't going anywhere. The problem with Islam isn't that the Quran is an incredibly violent book, meant for 7th century audience. So is the Old Testament. Anyone can cherry-pick a holy book to work in sync with 2016 western values. The problem with Islam is that mainstream Islam today, even in the West, is where mainstream Christianity was 200, 300 years ago.

I would truly welcome Islam into the 21st century as just "any other religion." Until the mainstream escapes the domains of Christianity's and Judaism's fringes however, I don't see it happening.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Good points and I believe this is something we probably all agree with

[ExPatty 502]

yes, everyone has a belief system. but not all belief systems require faith.

do i think it's horrid to raise little girls in long skirts, to make them sexual long before they're aware that knee caps are a sexual thing? lol. yeah. it's horrible. it ruins people. i have close family members that believe just that. raised their daughters that way. and they are, raising their own in the same manner. never ending cycle.

All belief systems require faith if they do not have a preponderance of empirical evidence to defend, and yours does not, in my opinion have that preponderance. Your belief that all religions are equally horrid fails the minimum of evidence requirement as indicated with examples such as this:

True or False

There are 2.2 billion Christians in the world: True

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world: True

66% of the world's terrorism is motivated by islamic beliefs: True (http://bit.ly/11C8bIp)

All religions are "equally horrid": False (see above)

[smilesammich 10,727]

LOL

The christians put Mary in a hijab in every christmas play I've ever been to.

Does that stigmatize muslims or is that an admission that christian ladies covered their head and shoulders too in services and to pray until about 100 years ago?

before that they weren't allowed to worship with men at all.

[smilesammich 10,727]

All belief systems require faith if they do not have a preponderance of empirical evidence to defend, and yours does not, in my opinion have that preponderance. Your belief that all religions are equally horrid fails the minimum of evidence requirement as indicated with examples such as this:

True or False

There are 2.2 billion Christians in the world: True

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world: True

66% of the world's terrorism is motivated by islamic beliefs: True (http://bit.ly/11C8bIp)

All religions are "equally horrid": False (see above)

look, we simply disagree on this. you tell me there are 2.2 billion christians in the world, while that might be fact, all i can think about is how many of them are rapists, or beat their kids, or hate and fear anyone who does not believe and think exactly as they do. we process religion and extremism differently. i tend not to think about muslim countries, because i don't live in one and i don't believe extreme islam is a threat to the us. but i do think that christian extremism is a threat in the us, simply because we have so much of it represented (and supported, inherently) by our government. Edited January 16, 2016 by elitesthuglib

[Darnell 8,478]

if, if a non-muslim lass goes into a mosque, she must be covered.

if ANY lass goes into any piece of the Grounds at The Vatican, she cannot be exposing bits of flesh. I learned that one the hard way, we got fussed at by one of the Guards and turned away.

Unsure about local Catholic Church stuff, but hey !

[Transborderwife 4,666]

if, if a non-muslim lass goes into a mosque, she must be covered.

if ANY lass goes into any piece of the Grounds at The Vatican, she cannot be exposing bits of flesh. I learned that one the hard way, we got fussed at by one of the Guards and turned away.

Unsure about local Catholic Church stuff, but hey !

Yes about th Vatican. My mother wore shorts the day she was to tour and wasn't allowed in

[JayJayH 546]

All religions are "equally horrid": False (see above)

Agreed, depending on how you look at it.

If you put the Quran and the Old Testament side by side, and read them, and use them as the law of the land, I don't think you could argue that one is any less horrible than the other.

If you judge by the sheer number of adherents who take these books literally, then yes, Islam has a tremendous problem that Christianity simply doesn't have to anywhere near the same extent.

That's why the punchline "But the Bible says that too" is usually dead on arrival to anyone other than the people who use it as the ultimate "gotcha!" argument.

look, we simply disagree on this. you tell me there are 2.2 billion christians in the world, while that might be fact, all i can think about is how many of them are rapists, or beat their kids, or hate and fear anyone who does not believe and think exactly as they do. we process religion and extremism differently. i tend not to think about muslim countries, because i don't live in one and i don't believe extreme islam is a threat to the us. but i do think that christian extremism is a threat in the us, simply because we have so much of it represented (and supported, inherently) by our government.

Since roughly 1% of the current U.S. population describe themselves as Muslim vs over 70% self-described Christians, it would be silly to say that extreme views within Islam are more prevalent than extreme views within the evangelical right in the U.S. today. Islamism today is not an existential threat to the U.S., neither to liberal, nor conservative values. You don't see Islamism on a daily basis in the U.S.

People often discuss this from two very different angles. While you're looking at the situation in the U.S. right now, the other side is looking at i.e. France and fearing a similar development if the debate isn't taken honestly and seriously. I don't think Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchins or even Richard Dawkins are out of line when they point out the fact that Islam has much larger problems within it, and on a much larger scale than any other major religion. Nor do I think Bill Maher is out of line when he points out that a large number of Syrian refugees are likely to have values completely at odds with both conservative and even more so liberal America - And that this should be part of any honest debate.

I really don't think most Republicans were against the notion of taking in 10,000 Syrian refugees strictly for national security concerns. We've taken in over 100,000 Iraqi refugees in the past decade or so. I think most Republicans were against the notion because the left tended to argue "how dare you say Islam is at odds with our values?" rather than say "what has happened in Europe won't happen here, because [fill in blank]."

The left then, often ends up trying to rebut people's fear of a growing (not current) influence of Islamism, by noting that there are several fringe elements within Christianity, and statistics such as "more Americans are killed by white gunmen." I get that argument, it's the perfect rebuttal to anyone who says "We have a problem, look at San Bernardino." But it doesn't take into account that Muslims make up 1% of the population, nor that the target audience for that argument are more concerned with that 1% growing to 5% than any current statistics thrown at them.

So what are we left with?

The left ends up viewing criticism of Islam as a phobia - an irrational fear.

The right ends up viewing the left as naive, more concerned about defending the perceived "oppressed minority" than standing up for western values.

I tend to think both are right to an extent.

There is no reason to go around fearing that Muslims are about to "take over America" or that ISIS will fly their black flag over the White House any time soon.

At the same time, I don't think anyone but Islamists are well served by the left's insistence on this notion that "[fill in blank] has nothing to do with Islam" and continued denial of many Americans' insistence that mainstream Islam (there will always be fringe elements) needs to either conform to the 21st century, or stay in the Middle East.

Yes about th Vatican. My mother wore shorts the day she was to tour and wasn't allowed in

Again, what you can and can't wear in the Vatican is one thing. What you can and can't wear outside the Vatican is quite another.

[Darnell 8,478]

that gives me hope, JayJay - as I've still got plans to find a secular lass from the middle east, sometime this decade.