The Day After

[OriZ 3,157]

Ask yourself why you don't have a deep love for Arabs? and then ask yourself what does Israel need to do to protect itself.

My point is there seems to be a recurring thing in the international media to ignore Israeli deaths and only report the Palestinian ones(even if they are the ones who caused it) only because of their view on Israel as an occupier(I call them disputed and not occupied because they were not occupied from any country that owned them legally to start with). I don't think that that is right. Their job is to report what is going on. If they want to add background after that, then go for it. But first report the facts and the truth, and if they fail to do so I have no problem with taking away their press passes, even if that means there are only two foreign journalists left there. Because what they are doing is inciting and only causing more violence by not reporting the truth. Which brings me to the next point which is don't kid yourself that all of the attacks are only for one reason and that is occupation. A huge part of it is very similar incitement and hatred against Jews and Israelis in general. I think people don't comprehend the complexity of the situation. They think Israel can just get out today and there will be peace tomorrow. It is alot more complicated than that, and if they are not willing to do their job in a professional manner and show people that instead of brainwashing them, they can leave. They are part of the problem. And it has nothing to do with whether or not you or I think Israel should be there to start with because trust me we don't disagree on much there, it's how you handle the present situation we disagree on.

[OriZ 3,157]

To add to the above - I've been against occupation since I was 8 years old. Nobody needs to convince me that it is a bad idea.

BtS spokesperson's lies refuted by his former army-mates

Avner Gvaryahu is the public face of Breaking the Silence, writing articles in Western media about how immoral the Israeli army is, and relating it to his own army experiences.

Now his fellow soldiers wrote a letter saying that he is full of it.

From My Truth:

Hey Avner,

It’s us, your friends from the army, from the Orev unit. We have also decided to break our silence. Want to stop reading? Don’t.

We were there no less than he was, and now the time has come for you to hear our truth also.

He shouts in every possible forum that he needs to be heard, now the time has come that he listen to us, too. We were ready to take a bullet for him once, we were with him there on the missions that he speaks of (in which we saved many lives and prevented countless terror attacks in the heart of Israel). In fact, when he says that war crimes were committed, he’s referring to each and every one of us. In every court case both sides are heard, no?

Let’s start. This post is written together by many members of the unit. Avner served together with us in the "Orev" Paratroopers (Anti-tank) unit from November 2004 until March 2007. Some of us served in the same crew, others in a parallel crew or in the unit at the same time. We decided to describe part of his testimonies which accuse us of things which never happened, or which were utterly distorted and whose connection to reality is totally coincidental, and each testimony needs to be told truthfully. To prove that you don’t have a sister is not an easy task, so be patient, you too Avner, give the minimum of respect and read until the end.

Before we begin to try to restore our name, we have one personal question for you: If we did all that you describe, you were a part of it; you were the March 2006 sniper team sergeant (by the way, this team by definition didn’t do arrests, refer to your own testimony, No. 58601 from 2011, in which you described other things), commander! What was done was your responsibility; so why did you run from responsibility? You turned a blind eye! You led soldiers behind you; don’t say that you received orders – you gave them! If there was truth in your words, then today you should be the one facing trial.

Let’s start from the last ones, the ones from the patrol in Hebron:

You claimed that there was a position with a “machine gun” which kills with a radius of 50 meters(!) and the operator would play a kind of video game and shoot innocent people and cars, and more than this, you claimed that there would be screams of encouragement on the radio, and so he would shoot.

We were in Hebron as a team of recruits who hadn’t yet finished training, for a period of about two weeks. Which machine guns did we use? With a killing radius of precisely 50 meters? Even a grenade launcher doesn’t kill at that kind of radius. Did you even fire so much as a single live bullet anywhere other than in the direction of a cardboard target in the course of your training? We didn’t. Since when are there cries of “come on, come on, shoot!” on the radio? The normal command on the radio is that “fire is permitted”. Nobody screams at anyone, and nobody permits live fire in the direction of innocent civilians or random vehicles.

You spoke about a big football game which occurs every four years (you meant the World Cup final?) and the soldiers are frustrated that they cannot see the game, so they enter a house with a satellite dish, tie up the people there, and sit down to watch the football game (at the time of training, remember?). The only World Cup final which took place while were in the army was in 2006 in June/July – just before the beginning of the Second Lebanon War. We performed a military mission in the Nablus area and from there we proceeded northwards. We weren’t in the Hebron area at all; we were 120km away from there, in fact. In Nablus nobody went into any houses to see a football game or selected a house because of its satellite dish.

On one thing you do speak the truth, and as usual, the rest is devoid of context and distorted. The team from the unit was indeed on a mission at the time of the World Cup final. As with every mission undertaken in the unit, the house was selected according to operational parameters alone, by officers who we were blessed to be under their command. You worked closely with them, Avner, so you certainly know this. And yes, in every house like this of ‘uninvolved people’, there is indeed a family (for the most part) whose routine is disturbed. But we can attest to the fact that when we were forced to do this, dozens, perhaps hundreds, of times all of us always extended as courteous as possible an attitude to the family, while keeping in mind the operational target for which we were sent out on the mission.

The protocol for houses of ‘uninvolved people’ was that the occupants of the house would be required to go into one room, and they would generally go to sleep there while one soldier stands guard outside the room. In the case above, since the mission was longer than usual, the family watched the game in their lounge. Needless to say, nobody was bound tightly. Nobody is ever completely tied up unless they are arrested. So it’s true, the soldier who watched over the family also glanced at the television which was already on. We won’t deny this. But it’s a far cry from the picture you tried to paint of a unit of sadistic soldiers whose first interest is to mistreat the civilian population.

You present us as a barbaric bunch who kill people who are only holding a cell phone.

To remind you: In every single company discussion the general protocols for opening fire, the protocol was mentioned in the unit, and it was that before opening fire, it’s vital to verify that it’s known which weapon the suspect is carrying in hand, whether it’s a Kalashnikov, a (burning) Molotov cocktail, or an M16, and if we are unable to say which weapon he’s holding, then apparently we’re not sure that it’s a weapon at all, and we don’t fire. Should we remind you about the hospital in Jenin? From where they shot at us almost every time we passed by, including from a PK sub-machine gun, and the commands were to not return fire, and so it was.

Can you give the name of your friend who shot indiscriminately?

You tarnish the name of the unit and make claims about a lack of values in a place where if a soldier so much as sat down on a bed in the parents’ room in a house in Jenin, he would be sentenced to court martial by the unit commander for disrespect of property, and his punishment would be a month on base. These were the values, from first day of training, of the soldiers who fought with you.

[Our] War isn’t an ideal but a necessity, exceptional cases such as they are do not represent the education or the values of your friends in the unit specifically or of Israeli soldiers in general.

This biased and one-sided show which you presented in front of the UN creates a false image which fuels hatred of Israel around the world and doesn’t contribute in any way to making the army “more moral”.

Furthermore, it doesn’t match the ten commandments which the organization you represent is based upon, and more’s the pity.

We demand you to immediately cease bearing false witness about your military service and to stop demonizing your friends in the unit and crew who gave their all, and continue to give their all, in order to safeguard the security of the people of Israel.

-Members of the Paratrooper Orev unit

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2016/01/bts-spokespersons-lies-refuted-by-his.html#.Vpg4NPlVikr

https://www.facebook.com/Israel.MyTruth/posts/1587493011489953

To be fair I am adding his response as well:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4756296,00.html

[Expat1 971]

Ask yourself why you don't have a deep love for Arabs? and then ask yourself what does Israel need to do to protect itself.

And it has nothing to do with whether or not you or I think Israel should be there to start with because trust me we don't disagree on much there, it's how you handle the present situation we disagree on.

Why? LOL you know I can't answer that. I already push the envelope.

We do agree on some very basic and fundamental things that will have to be done before peace can even begin to be restored.

Both sides are wrong in this conflict, it is ####### for tat and back and forth and I would never suggest that Israel hesitate to defend their borders. I do believe that there are too many deaths there on the wrong side of the border and for what?

We learned the hard way that this is a game that cannot be won and never ends. Why should Israel have to learn the same tired lesson?

[OriZ 3,157]

I like that you called it an impossible quagmire because it shows a deeper understanding of the situation than most people seem to have. Having said that, what would be your practical suggestion today? How does Israel pull out and at the same time makes sure Hamas doesn't take over, or worse - someone like Isis?

There are certain things both sides need to give the other in order for an agreement to be possible, and neither side is willing to do that at this point.

[Expat1 971]

I like that you called it an impossible quagmire because it shows a deeper understanding of the situation than most people seem to have. Having said that, what would be your practical suggestion today? How does Israel pull out and at the same time makes sure Hamas doesn't take over, or worse - someone like Isis?

There are certain things both sides need to give the other in order for an agreement to be possible, and neither side is willing to do that at this point.

I don't see a market in Palestine for what ISIS offers and it is a full blown guarantee that your Hezbollah neighbors in Lebanon won't stand by peacefully and watch a radical Sunni-or-die takeover across their borders. Those folks might take a shot or two at Israel but they would fire up and roll right over an ISIS-style idealogy and the IDF would just have to kick back, relax, and watch the fireworks. Kinda like over in Syria.

Both sides have demands and it might just take chaining them together at a table holding hands until they hammer them out. Israel needs nothing but a signed map that everyone can agree with LOL. The Palestinians want their own map + access to; Ports, investment, airport/travel, and they want their natural resources and territorial waters back. From here that doesn't seem unreasonable either. Pretty basic demands dude.

From what I can tell there is already a lot of business back and forth. Israel would probably have to give up some territory that they claim is theirs, the Palestinians would have to consent to Iran-style verification.

An alternative would be to provide full citizenship (and equal rights/protection under the law Oriz, not the dual set of laws that are implemented today) to the people in the areas under Israeli control, clamp down on the rampant discrimination practiced in those areas (like East Jerusalem), and completely pull out of the "occupied" areas, but at the same time completely pull out means that they still get their airport, territorial waters, and natural resources back (water! What's with the water allocation issues anyway)?

That's the start. I don't see either side budging on resources or territory so there it sits.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Expat1

[OriZ 3,157]

Well, I used the word practical for a reason. What you suggested might work in some areas of the world, but not in the current ME. Israel can't just withdraw and leave it in their hands and in good faith. It needs guarantees and security measures that so far have been at the heart of not reaching an agreement. Those can and should be removed gradually as trust is established. When you live with people that constantly want to kill you(and not only because you're on disputed land) you really don't want to give them more of an opportunity to do so. This cannot be done half assed, and does Israel really want Hezbollah, then, if they fight Isis?

I also don't think they should have ports until that point. After that is fine, but first prove you are not going to use such access for the wrong purposes. Israel tried to do this with Gaza, it withdrew and what happened was instead of establishing trust(which in the end would have led to them getting ports there) Hamas took over and the rest is history(again, refer to my first post in this thread which while not by my own words I believe summarizes the situation pretty well).

I don't believe there is a magic fix to this and actually I don't believe there will be a fix to it at all during our lifetimes. I used to but I no longer do.

[Expat1 971]

Well, I used the word practical for a reason. What you suggested might work in some areas of the world, but not in the current ME. Israel can't just withdraw and leave it in their hands and in good faith. It needs guarantees and security measures that so far have been at the heart of not reaching an agreement. Those can and should be removed gradually as trust is established. When you live with people that constantly want to kill you(and not only because you're on disputed land) you really don't want to give them more of an opportunity to do so. This cannot be done half assed, and does Israel really want Hezbollah, then, if they fight Isis?

I also don't think they should have ports until that point. After that is fine, but first prove you are not going to use such access for the wrong purposes. Israel tried to do this with Gaza, it withdrew and what happened was instead of establishing trust(which in the end would have led to them getting ports there) Hamas took over and the rest is history(again, refer to my first post in this thread which while not by my own words I believe summarizes the situation pretty well).

I don't believe there is a magic fix to this and actually I don't believe there will be a fix to it at all during our lifetimes. I used to but I no longer do.

No I do not believe it will happen either.

My original comment was just a quiet one that sometimes one side is on the high road and sometimes the other and the best explanation for what I feel is the reason in this particular case that the reporting was done in the way it was.

[OriZ 3,157]

I get that, I just think it's still not an excuse to blatantly ignore one casualty and only report the casualty of the perpetrators.

[Expat1 971]

I get that, I just think it's still not an excuse to blatantly ignore one casualty and only report the casualty of the perpetrators.

Didnt say it was fair, just noted what I believe to be the reason

[OriZ 3,157]

Speaking from Istanbul, the 39-year-old high-tech professional tells Ynet about his experiences during the Syrian crisis, and about one important lesson about the country he was always taught to hate and fear.

Dandachi, a Sunni Muslim, says that he was neutral when demonstrations against the Assad regime began in March of 2011. "I didn't support anyone because my life was good," he recalls. "I did not need the government and I only wanted them to leave me alone." But he reached a turning point when, he says, the government murdered 100 protesters one night.

Dandashi in Homs, a decade ago

He expected the war to be over sooner rather than later, but by September 2013, when Assad had begun using chemical weapons and ISIS had overrun Raqqa, he knew he had to leave. After a two-week stay in Lebanon, Dandachi realized he had traded one conflict zone for another, and moved on to Turkey, where he has since rented an apartment.

He says one clear conclusion from the past five years is that Israel is not at all the Great Satan – quite the opposite, in fact.

צילום: אלי סגל ודו"צ, עריכה: רונה פפר

May, 2015 video shows IDF soldiers saving life of Syrian rebel in Golan Heights

"Israel is doing exactly what it must do," he says. "It is not taking part in the war, but is helping Syrians, my view of the world changes."

Ruins in Homs, Syria

Therefore, he says, "someday, when this war is over, and there is no doubt that it will be over sometime, I do not want the Syrians to be involved in unnecessary conflicts. There no reason for us to be in a conflict with Israelis. What kind of disagreements are there between the two sides? The Golan Heights, for example, is an issue that is very easy to solve, certainly compared to other complicated issues in our region.

"Why are we the Jews' enemies?" he asks. "At a time when Donald Trump is defaming us, when Denmark and Switzerland confiscate Syrian refugees' belongings, when all these countries are against us – we have the Jews who even endanger themselves to help us. So why should I be an enemy of the Jews? They have proven that they want to be my friends. They held out their hand, so why should I turn against them?"

In December 2015, Dandachi launched a site called

"I remember talking about it for the first time in 2014, when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin<a class="bluelink" data-cke-saved-href="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4489821,00.html"href="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4489821,00.html" '="" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255); font-size: 12px;">Netanyahu visited wounded Syrians at the Golan Heights and he was photographed. I remember that the Syrian opposition then said that Netanyahu should stop using wounded Syrians for propaganda and other nonsense. I told the opposition at the time: 'Are you crazy? You can't even say thank you?' It is so immature."

He says he wrote this message on his blog, "and then the Syrian opposition erased the message on the subject from its website. Unfortunately, the reality in the Middle Esat is that there is no Arab politician who will say 'thank you' to Israel. That is the reality of the Middle East, because then they would lose support and popularity."

Dandachi is in touch with his brothers in the Gulf and in Turkey and has no more ties with Syria. "No one from my family has stayed there," he says. "I am the last one who left Syria out of those close to me. When I left in September 2013, I knew I would never return to Syria."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4768367,00.html