Israelis invest in firepower as knife attacks rise

[Expat1 971]

There was NO change in the status quo in Jerusalem and even most Arabs in Israel are aware of that. That is pure incitement. As far as the limitations - that happened ONLY after the stabbings started and in an attempt to prevent them. I can go on and on. Like I said trust aljazeera at your own peril.

B'Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories is not aware of this. Please dial them up and brief them immediately because they seem to be completely oblivious to what you are saying.

On another note, is B'Tselem an Arabic organization? Palestinian? Just kidding, I withdraw the question.

http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/legal_status

After the annexation, Israel conducted a census in these areas and granted permanent residency status to residents in the annexed areas present at the time the census was taken. Persons not present in the city for whatever reason forever lost their right to reside in Jerusalem. Permanent residents are permitted, if they wish and meet certain conditions, to receive Israeli citizenship. These conditions include swearing allegiance to the State, proving that they are not citizens of any other country, and showing some knowledge of Hebrew. For political reasons, most of the residents do not request Israeli citizenship. . Setting the municipal boundary to run through neighborhoods and villages also created a distinction between Palestinians regarding their rights, since residents living in the unannexed area continued to be residents of the West Bank, and were subject to military rule.

Palestinians hold the status of "permanent resident" of the State of Israel. This is the same status granted to foreign citizens who have freely chosen to come to Israel and want to live there. Israel treats Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem as immigrants who live in their homes at the beneficence of the authorities and not by right. The authorities maintain this policy although these Palestinians were born in Jerusalem, lived in the city, and have no other home. Treating these Palestinians as foreigners who entered Israel is astonishing, since it was Israel that entered East Jerusalem in 1967.

Permanent residency differs substantially from citizenship. The primary right granted to permanent residents is to live and work in Israel without the necessity of special permits. Permanent residents are also entitled to social benefits provided by the National Insurance Institute and to health insurance. Permanent residents have the right to vote in local elections, but not in elections to Knesset [Parliament]. Unlike citizenship, permanent residency is only passed on to the holder's children where the holder meets certain conditions. A permanent resident with a non-resident spouse must submit, on behalf of the spouse, a request for family unification. Only citizens are granted the right to return to Israel at any time.

Cool tricks. If you leave, you don't have a right to return. You are a citizen of nowhere, can be a "permanent resident", however your children can be denied even residency, which puts them in permanent limbo. Small wonder the military chooses to focus their brave attention on the children. "You threw a rock, ok, your permanent residency is denied."

If I were going to lay out a plan to slowly annihilate a population of "undesirables" that's exactly how I would do it to. Israel is truly a bastion of human rights.

Summary: You're full of it. Next.

[OriZ 3,157]

The West Bank can only be considered "disputed territory" if the end goal is to insure that the Palestinians never get their own State. I'm a little bit surprised at the argument and how much it really helps the Israeli claim to desire peace.

It has nothing to do with the end goal. I do and have always supported a two state solution.

It does, however, have EVERYTHING to do with accuracy in a situation where alot of people spread grave inaccuracies in order to promote their agenda. You simply cannot say Israel is illegally occupying an area if there was never anyone to illegally occupy it from.

[OriZ 3,157]

And here is what Jeffrey Goldberg, usually a harsh critic of Israeli policies(and rightfully so) but like yours truly, also looks at the real situation at hand and not just smear Israel for everything. Goldberg is one of the closest people to Obama and tens to promote the white house's agenda towards the Middle East. Here is what he is writing about the current violence.

Knife attacks on Jews in Jerusalem and elsewhere are not based on Palestinian frustration over settlements, but on something deeper.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/the-roots-of-the-palestinian-uprising-against-israel/410944/

Very interesting read about current and past Palestinian libel in the link above.

Edited October 19, 2015 by OriZ

[OriZ 3,157]

B'Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories is not aware of this. Please dial them up and brief them immediately because they seem to be completely oblivious to what you are saying.

On another note, is B'Tselem an Arabic organization? Palestinian? Just kidding, I withdraw the question.

http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/legal_status

After the annexation, Israel conducted a census in these areas and granted permanent residency status to residents in the annexed areas present at the time the census was taken. Persons not present in the city for whatever reason forever lost their right to reside in Jerusalem. Permanent residents are permitted, if they wish and meet certain conditions, to receive Israeli citizenship. These conditions include swearing allegiance to the State, proving that they are not citizens of any other country, and showing some knowledge of Hebrew. For political reasons, most of the residents do not request Israeli citizenship. . Setting the municipal boundary to run through neighborhoods and villages also created a distinction between Palestinians regarding their rights, since residents living in the unannexed area continued to be residents of the West Bank, and were subject to military rule.

Palestinians hold the status of "permanent resident" of the State of Israel. This is the same status granted to foreign citizens who have freely chosen to come to Israel and want to live there. Israel treats Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem as immigrants who live in their homes at the beneficence of the authorities and not by right. The authorities maintain this policy although these Palestinians were born in Jerusalem, lived in the city, and have no other home. Treating these Palestinians as foreigners who entered Israel is astonishing, since it was Israel that entered East Jerusalem in 1967.

Permanent residency differs substantially from citizenship. The primary right granted to permanent residents is to live and work in Israel without the necessity of special permits. Permanent residents are also entitled to social benefits provided by the National Insurance Institute and to health insurance. Permanent residents have the right to vote in local elections, but not in elections to Knesset [Parliament]. Unlike citizenship, permanent residency is only passed on to the holder's children where the holder meets certain conditions. A permanent resident with a non-resident spouse must submit, on behalf of the spouse, a request for family unification. Only citizens are granted the right to return to Israel at any time.

Cool tricks. If you leave, you don't have a right to return. You are a citizen of nowhere, can be a "permanent resident", however your children can be denied even residency, which puts them in permanent limbo. Small wonder the military chooses to focus their brave attention on the children. "You threw a rock, ok, your permanent residency is denied."

If I were going to lay out a plan to slowly annihilate a population of "undesirables" that's exactly how I would do it to. Israel is truly a bastion of human rights.

Summary: You're full of it. Next.

You seriously need to pay more attention. We are not talking about what you posted but rather the lies and the libels that lead to the current wave of violence. About what allegedly Israel is doing or planning to do to the mosque, etc.

Regardless, I have already discredited Btselem in the past and have no intention of wasting my time on this again.

[eieio 1,594]

I think a 36 day war would bring clarity to what territory is disputed.

[decocker 7,198]

This - http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/571016-lies-lies-and-more-lies/ Pretty much sums up what some people have posted on this thread already too(hint - I wouldn't trust the aljazeera link above).

The amount of lies and distortion as to the reason for the stabbings is unbelievable.

but hey, what's a little more

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4711817,00.html

wait. back up. you don't trust aljazeera. ynetnews is cool. hint - i'm not surprised.

[Expat1 971]

And here is what Jeffrey Goldberg, usually a harsh critic of Israeli policies(and rightfully so) but like yours truly, also looks at the real situation at hand and not just smear Israel for everything. Goldberg is one of the closest people to Obama and tens to promote the white house's agenda towards the Middle East. Here is what he is writing about the current violence.

Knife attacks on Jews in Jerusalem and elsewhere are not based on Palestinian frustration over settlements, but on something deeper.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/the-roots-of-the-palestinian-uprising-against-israel/410944/

Very interesting read about current and past Palestinian libel in the link above.

I haven't actually bothered to go look up what the Palestinians are saying or guessing their reasons.

My position is this: If you get stabbed on Palestinian land, it's on you. Sorry.

[GandD 5,966]

Victim blaming.

[OriZ 3,157]

wait. back up. you don't trust aljazeera. ynetnews is cool. hint - i'm not surprised.

I'll take Jeffrey Goldberg over either.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/the-roots-of-the-palestinian-uprising-against-israel/410944/

[JohnR! 5,495]

:thumbs: That seems to be the Israeli MO. Start the aggression, and then blame the Palestinians for fighting back.

Victim blaming.

[OriZ 3,157]

For people like JohnR who obviously seem to not be paying attention, here's just a small excerpt of it.

These sorts of comments, combined with the violence of the past two weeks—including the sacking and burning of a Jewish shrine outside Nablus—suggest a tragic continuity between the 1920s and today. For those who believe not only in the necessity, but in the practical possibility, of an equitable two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict—and in particular, for those who believe that the post-1967 settlement project is the root cause of the conflict—recent events have been sobering.

One of the tragedies of the settlement movement is that it obscures what might be the actual root cause of the Middle East conflict: the unwillingness of many Muslim Palestinians to accept the notion that Jews are a people who are indigenous to the land Palestinians believe to be exclusively their own, and that the third-holiest site in Islam is also the holiest site of another religion, one whose adherents reject the notion of Muslim supersessionism. The status quo on the Temple Mount is prudent and must remain in place. It saves lives, lives fundamentalist Jewish radicals would risk in order to advance their millennial dreams. But it is the byproduct of the intolerance of Jerusalem’s Muslim leadership.

When violence against Jews occurs inside Israel, or on the West Bank, a consensus tends to be reached quickly by outside analysts and political leaders, one that holds that such violence represents the inevitable consequence of Israel’s occupation and settlement of Palestinian territory. John Kerry, the U.S. secretary of state, said in an appearance earlier this week at Harvard that, “What’s happening is that unless we get going, a two-state solution could conceivably be stolen from everybody. And there’s been a massive increase in settlements over the course of the last years.” He went on to say, “Now you have this violence because there’s a frustration that is growing, and a frustration among Israelis who don’t see any movement.”

It is sometimes difficult for policymakers such as Kerry, who has devoted so much time and energy to the search for a solution to the Israeli-Arab impasse, to acknowledge the power of a particular Palestinian narrative, one that obviates the possibility of a solution that allows Jews national and religious equality. Writing in Haaretz, the left-center political scientist Shlomo Avineri describes an important disconnect that often goes unnoticed, even in times like these: Many Palestinians believe that “this is not a conflict between two national movements but a conflict between one national movement (the Palestinian) and a colonial and imperialistic entity (Israel).” He goes on to write, “According to this view, Israel will end like all colonial phenomena—it will perish and disappear. Moreover, according to the Palestinian view, the Jews are not a nation but a religious community, and as such not entitled to national self-determination which is, after all, a universal imperative.”

Avineri, like most sensible analysts, understands the many and variegated reasons for the continued failure of the peace process:

The violence of the past two weeks, encouraged by purveyors of rumors who now have both Israeli and Palestinian blood on their hands, is rooted not in Israeli settlement policy, but in a worldview that dismisses the national and religious rights of Jews. There will not be peace between Israelis and Palestinians so long as parties on both sides of the conflict continue to deny the national and religious rights of the other.

The whole thing is well worth the read.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/the-roots-of-the-palestinian-uprising-against-israel/410944/

Edited October 20, 2015 by OriZ

[JohnR! 5,495]

Greetings from planet Earth. The Israelis have always fomented violence so they can play the victim card. :thumbs: That seems to be the Israeli MO. Start the aggression, and then blame the Palestinians for fighting back.

For people like JohnR who obviously seem to not be paying attention, here's just a small excerpt of it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/the-roots-of-the-palestinian-uprising-against-israel/410944/

Edited October 20, 2015 by JohnR!

[Expat1 971]

You seriously need to pay more attention. We are not talking about what you posted but rather the lies and the libels that lead to the current wave of violence. About what allegedly Israel is doing or planning to do to the mosque, etc.

Regardless, I have already discredited Btselem in the past and have no intention of wasting my time on this again.

Israel treats Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem as immigrants who live in their homes at the beneficence of the authorities and not by right. The authorities maintain this policy although these Palestinians were born in Jerusalem, lived in the city, and have no other home. Treating these Palestinians as foreigners who entered Israel is astonishing, since it was Israel that entered East Jerusalem in 1967.

What is amazing, floors me, is that you and people like you really can't grasp or understand that this is wrong on a fundamental level and that the "anything else" doesn't matter.

[OriZ 3,157]

Keep showing your ignorance. You can easily tell you have never in your life had any security concerns whatsoever and have never lived in a slighlty more complex place than your little shack. Not having the right to return? Are you kidding me? In theory of course, not a citizen, nothing is guaranteed. Find me a case where that has actually happened, and for no good reason. It is meant to prevent terrorists from going to the Palestinian territories and coming back with bombs and such, not to stop someone from taking a trip abroad and coming back. So go ahead, find me something.

BTW, how many Arab or Muslim surrounding countries gave the Palestinians refugees there citizenship? The answer is none. That's why they all stay in camps. Hell, they were not even given residency. On the other hand the Palestinians in east jerusalem in almost every poll cite not only the fact that that is their home, but also the benefits themselves, as one of the top reasons that even if there were to be a Palestinian state they would prefer to stay residents of Israel than move there. This is from what you yourself posted:

Permanent residents are also entitled to social benefits provided by the National Insurance Institute and to health insurance.

Make no mistake about it. They use those benefits all the time and they have made it clear they want to keep using them. Those include very cheap health care as well. Moreover, even Israeli residents that have committed terror attacks and died, their family received money from the state as a victim even though the sole reason for their own death was wanting to kill Jews. Yet the state paid the family, which as you would expect alot of Israeli Members of Parliament had a problem with and have been working on changing since.

BTW, being we are in a visa forum after all, if you look in my sig and read about the document I had to bring back and did so two hours later...I actually ended up going to the ministry of interior office IN east jerusalem. It was just the closest. Needless to say Jews don't go there very often. Even the woman at the desk(she was Arab herself of course as most employees there are) helping me looked at my ID and wondered why the hell I would go there if I live in Haifa so I explained it to her. But anyway, to my left there was a door where all the family reunion things were getting taken care of. Trust me, there were plenty of happy people coming out of there.

Edited October 20, 2015 by OriZ

[Expat1 971]

Keep showing your ignorance. You can easily tell you have never in your life had any security concerns whatsoever and have never lived in a slighlty more complex place than your little shack. Not having the right to return? Are you kidding me? In theory of course, not a citizen, nothing is guaranteed. Find me a case where that has actually happened, and for no good reason. It is meant to prevent terrorists from going to the Palestinian territories and coming back with bombs and such, not to stop someone from taking a trip abroad and coming back. So go ahead, find me something.

BTW, how many Arab or Muslim surrounding countries gave the Palestinians refugees there citizenship? The answer is none. That's why they all stay in camps. Hell, they were not even given residency. On the other hand the Palestinians in east jerusalem in almost every poll cite not only the fact that that is their home, but also the benefits themselves, as one of the top reasons that even if there were to be a Palestinian state they would prefer to stay residents of Israel than move there. This is from what you yourself posted:

Permanent residents are also entitled to social benefits provided by the National Insurance Institute and to health insurance.

Make no mistake about it. They use those benefits all the time and they have made it clear they want to keep using them. Those include very cheap health care as well. Moreover, even Israeli residents that have committed terror attacks and died, their family received money from the state as a victim even though the sole reason for their own death was wanting to kill Jews. Yet the state paid the family, which as you would expect alot of Israeli Members of Parliament had a problem with and have been working on changing since.

BTW, being we are in a visa forum after all, if you look in my sig and read about the document I had to bring back and did so two hours later...I actually ended up going to the ministry of interior office IN east jerusalem. It was just the closest. Needless to say Jews don't go there very often. Even the woman at the desk(she was Arab herself of course as most employees there are) helping me looked at my ID and wondered why the hell I would go there if I live in Haifa so I explained it to her. But anyway, to my left there was a door where all the family reunion things were getting taken care of. Trust me, there were plenty of happy people coming out of there.

Not my words, not my ignorance. Benefits don't replace freedom of movement and people who are born, live, and grow up somewhere are not magically "residents".

Take a time out for a bit so money can be made. I got a line on some 100G gold bars, priced at around 13800 SAR or 1149 or so an ounce. Been picking up gold for over a year now, every couple months. What's the projection on gold? Real gold, not paper gold. I'm building a sack of it, but not in these block sizes.

Pro

Then we got to know if you're still shorting the market. I dipped a foot back in <grin> but in EM, to ride the currencies up. Cashed out late March, didn't start buying in until August/ Provide us with Sage advice.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Expat1