The Outgoing Tide

[JimandSarha 0]

First -

I'm no expert but I'd say something is wrong with your petition. Don't ask me what, but something.

Second -

Although I'd love to, I won't spare/debate over why anyone would move from a democracy to what many would say is still a communist country. Not saying it’s a bad thing just wouldn't be for me.

Lastly -

in today's world - am not sure any country is without buocracy - be it the US, EU-countries, Far East, etc. Some better/faster than others - and yes, I think they all are quick to collect taxes and slow to return papers. All things being equal - I think part (note; PART) of the slowness of our immigration system comes from the thousands (maybe millions) that are hoping to come here, not leave. Land of Opportunity still rings true.

As for me -

I love my country - barely tolerate my/our sometimes comical government - I'd move to Germany in a heartbeat if I could -not because I hate my country, but because I love Germany too and love a certain wonderful person who is there.

Good Luck - hope you get some great advice from some of the terrific folks on this site.

I sat for awhile and analyzed my feelings and anger. I think I'm maddest that for what appears to be all the wrong reasons my government has set up a system that forces me to damage my employees to save my marriage. You can read in other threads. My inlaws think I'm just a rich American dropping in to do business and have sex. They think I'm just using Sarha as a mistress. So the consequences to lots of people are dramatic and damaging so I can reassure people who hardly know me that I am not treating their daughter like a #######.

Thank you USA. Now 20 families plus mine are disrupted so you can play stupid games with people's lives.

I won't be putting this business back together here, in this way eer again. I've thought about having to do this for months. I'll still make more than enough money. But lots of other people will be affected by this.

Jim

[rebeccajo 14]

I sat for awhile and analyzed my feelings and anger. I think I'm maddest that for what appears to be all the wrong reasons my government has set up a system that forces me to damage my employees to save my marriage. You can read in other threads. My inlaws think I'm just a rich American dropping in to do business and have sex. They think I'm just using Sarha as a mistress. So the consequences to lots of people are dramatic and damaging so I can reassure people who hardly know me that I am not treating their daughter like a #######.

Thank you USA. Now 20 families plus mine are disrupted so you can play stupid games with people's lives.

I won't be putting this business back together here, in this way eer again. I've thought about having to do this for months. I'll still make more than enough money. But lots of other people will be affected by this.

Jim

I bolded two parts of your writing I found interesting and worthy of a second look.

I understand there must be some social pressures upon your wife. But you said yourself that you would be reassuring people who hardly know you.

On the other hand, I presume you know your 20 employees pretty well?

You say you received bad advice from the Chinese consulate and that has slowed your petition. Do you have better advice now? Perhaps legal counsel?

[MPGGPM 0]

so go, this is our government, what our guys fight and die for, so you can have the right to leave.

Yeah I know. I stood in the breach in Korea and then in Lebanon.

Now to the subject at hand instead of jingoism. When it becomes nearly impossible to wait for what appears to be a non-happening, I choose to go to my wife since my wife may never get to come to me.

Unlike those that say "My country right or wrong" I'm willing to look at it and say "#######?" Do you really think that the way immigration is handled is handled this way because its efficient? Is it cost effective this way? Is anything about this process set up to achieve the stated purpose of uniting American citizens and their families in the most efficient manner?

Well I don't. Send your paperwork here. Then there. Then finally to yet another place. Do it one slip of paper at a time. One process at a time. Let's move paperwork from place to place to place. Each phase takes weeks. Each move takes more time. More interactions.

Only a complete fool would believe this process is set up this way for the benefit of us, the US. This process is set up to throw as much delay and as many roadblocks into the process as can be accomplished without actually saying, GET A DIVORCE.

I will again ask, who here thinks that if this is such a good process, developed by rational people, why isn't the IRS organized this way?

Send in your 1040. Let them process it. Then send in your Schedule A....

Ok citizen, that looks good so far.... How about sending us some of your W-2's and 1099's.

Patience citizen, patience. We should be able to collect your taxes in 18-24 months. Just be patient. PLEASE do not send in any taxes due until we tell you too. Sending in your tax payment before being asked will just delay your taxes.

Its sheer folly on its face. And sheer folly that runs counter to the wishes of the people, some of whom did indeed risk death to make this a place worth coming to, has to be resisted. If it can't be resisted it has to be countered. I refuse to be away from my wife any longer when I'm told patently stupid tales by anyone. Even the genuinly nice people at the NVC. Therefore, I'm packing up and leaving. Not because I hate America. Its because America seems to have forgotten WHY it was and is America.

So for those of us immigrating to another country to be with our families, I think it would be a useful to have a place to discuss what's involved in going THERE when we can't be together HERE.

And those that think America can do no wrong will soon find that that is a way to ensure it can never do better.

Jim

Can't say I disagree with a much of your anger and frustration. You made a lot of very good points. The system really sucks.......and it's almost enough to drive one bonkers just thinking about it.

Whenever I bring up what my wife and I have had to go through for nearly 2 years (although our circumstances are quite different than yours) to my friends, family, and co-workers, they are just amazed at the ridiculousness of the process and what I describe to them about it. For most people NOT involved with the government and their way of thinking, they just can't understand why 2 people that are married, and have been so for a while...can't just be allowed to live together. It just seems like it should be so much easier, and why it's as difficult as it is, is beyond me.

I don't think 99.9% of the American public has any idea what we, who marry someone who was not a US citizen, have to go through. Maybe if they did, one day things would change.

But....reading your responses and points, and feeling your frustration, ....although I disagree personally with the idea of just leaving and giving up (frustrated as you are), I can certainly empathize with your disgust over the process and having to continually deal with the beaurocratic nightmare and arrogance of this system.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do......

[JimandSarha 0]

I sat for awhile and analyzed my feelings and anger. I think I'm maddest that for what appears to be all the wrong reasons my government has set up a system that forces me to damage my employees to save my marriage. You can read in other threads. My inlaws think I'm just a rich American dropping in to do business and have sex. They think I'm just using Sarha as a mistress. So the consequences to lots of people are dramatic and damaging so I can reassure people who hardly know me that I am not treating their daughter like a #######.

Thank you USA. Now 20 families plus mine are disrupted so you can play stupid games with people's lives.

I won't be putting this business back together here, in this way eer again. I've thought about having to do this for months. I'll still make more than enough money. But lots of other people will be affected by this.

Jim

I bolded two parts of your writing I found interesting and worthy of a second look.

I understand there must be some social pressures upon your wife. But you said yourself that you would be reassuring people who hardly know you.

On the other hand, I presume you know your 20 employees pretty well?

You say you received bad advice from the Chinese consulate and that has slowed your petition. Do you have better advice now? Perhaps legal counsel?

All the bad advice from the consulate was in the beginning when I was repeatedly told to file at the consulate. DCF I would guess. And then that wasn't really the case because my official residence wasn't in China, it was in America. So I filed away document after document just to have nothing happen until finally one exasperated consulate employee finally figured it out for all of us.

My inlaws barely know me. They do have their opinions of Americans and what we can apparently accomplish. I keep reminding Sarha that Americans are like superman. We only have special powers in alien places. In our home environment, we give each other no special treatment. In other words, Chinese officials may love to bend or break rules for me, US govt. people don't really care too much about our individual case. At least not enough to be able to do anything about it.

I called NVC today and asked a very nice girl that answered to specifically look and see if she saw any notes that might explain these delays and she said that she couldn't. Frankly, 90% of the delays that seem overly long were at CSC.

Besides the impossible position with the mother in law, I'm just sick abot closing up here and laying off 20 people. THAT hurts the government and other people a lot more than it hurts me. But no where near as much as the people affected.

10 days of escalation could save a lot of human misery. Fat chance.

Jim

[Fandango 1,439]

Hey if you wanna leave, then good luck and Godspeed.

But this is a board for immigration to the United States. You need to seek out one for immigration to China. After all, since this is a topic that is not discussed on here, nor would I assume there'd be a moderately huge base of people here who would even know the logistics of, let alone immigrated there...then I don't even know who you'd be talking to in that sub-forum.

Not to mention the fact that this site is truncated enough as it is.

[Andy 2]

Jim,

I understand the frustration and anger entirely. I've been involved in the US immigration system for years and years now, first as a victim of it and in the absence (then) of resources like this, having to do all my own research and legwork, and then afterwards, in casework on behalf of others. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in the the world has been so consistently problematic to navigate the system than via China. Even those countries where new rules have caused serious delays and processing obstructions due to the perception of terrorist threats have never been so consistently difficult-to-nigh-on-impossible to get a case through than China, so prone to undocumented procedures.

The US immigration system is amongst the worst in the world at almost everything. Obstructionism, bureaucracy, opacity, random acts of stupidity, inefficiency, confusions and inaccuracies.... the list is long and saddening in the extreme, and as a result, history is littered with such people as yourself who find it easier, less stressful and less likely to cause divorce and disaster to join their partners outside the US rather than wait the interminable wait to get their partners here. Even such friendly countries as the UK have thrown up cases like this from time to time, so it's no surprise that China does on a routine basis.

And the saddest thing of all about the system is that once a case goes bad, usually through no fault of the person involved in it, it tends to stay bad. Simple errors of bad advice mistakenly followed get compounded into major obstacles to progress. It's the system. You can fight it, but it's like nailing jelly to a tree and in the end it's no more likely to succeed than trying to convince the IRS not to keep collecting taxes.

Before you do decide to leave however, there are a some things to try. Contact your congressional representatives and speak to their immigration liaison staffers. Some are better than others, but the good ones can get the most difficult case unstuck. Also, consult with a good immigration attorney - not necessarily local, there are some excellent ones of good reputation on the internet such as www.shusterman.com and www.visalaw.com. Lay your case out in writing in the barest facts along a timeline before you do this, since it'll make discussion of the details easier and waste less time. That'll help work out what the best course of action is in terms of realistic possibilities for getting the case moving again, or refilling, and help you discover the probabilities of success.

If you then decide to continue the move to China, contact the US embassy there to discuss what issues you'll face, and the Chinese embassy here to get details on the process you'll need to go through.

And good luck!

And to those who say this is an IMMIGRATION site thus not intended to cater for those leaving instead, I'm sorry but you miss the point. This site was, ALWAYS, intended to be family and community first. We have in the course of the years this forum has existed (and it has had several names) always been a community of sufferers first, more concerned about navigating the process, surviving separation, finding ways to be together than the semantics of a name or the simplicity of viewing the problem from one angle rather than another. To be sure, we can't offer reliable help and support on navigating emigration to a foreign country because we don't have the background of knowledge for that, but we all surely have the background of knowledge of what it's like to be separated, and the tough choices that have to be made in the always slow, often painful, business of getting together and consequently offer support and kind words.

Andy.

[MPGGPM 0]

When it comes to our government, who knows what the best recourse is.......but I would think that if you brang this up with your congressional office (and yes, I know what you said in regards to Senator Boxer), BUT, maybe took the approach and mentioned that if you leave, it would have a negative impact on the economy of that city. Meaning......, you inform them that you have 20 or so employees. All of whom stand to lose their jobs, become a burden on society, and perhaps take their vengeance by using their 'right to vote", to vote against that particular congressman.

In my opinion, what seems to be about the only way to get a congressman's attention is money or loss of power. Money talks. And maybe if they knew that their district stood to lose not only 20 jobs, but also 20 votes ( )......maybe then, you would get noticed.

I would think that would work much better than if you just told them you were some anonymous individual trying to get their spouse to the USA. Believe me....in my own experience with that..................that approach barely gets noticed. However, if you were to bring to their attention that by you leaving, there would be 20 more people unemployed in their city (What congressman doesn't want to keep/bring jobs to their district?)....which would add to the welfare state/unemployment of that city, .....and then that most likely those same very 20 individuals who lost their steady jobs would.....basically....have a chance in hell of ever voting for that congressman ever again, and would be more likely now motivated to vote against them...

Well, maybe that would get their attention.

Blackmail, ...maybe. Then again......I am sure them being congressmen etc...they are used to dealing with such tactics Sometimes, ...you just have to play hardball.

Maybe then, when they realize what they and their city has to lose by you leaving and closing up shop.........perhaps then......you might get their attention. And something might get done.

I think it's something to consider.

[JimandSarha 0]

There is a major rub in going the congressional route.

My Senators are Boxer and Feinstein. I'm Repblican and while not rabid about it, I am up front about it and they seem to be only slightly interested in helping me. Now there is the House of Representatives route and in this, I am totally and completely screwed. Screwed with an 18" lag bolt, right up the butt.

Darrel Issa, my Rep, made his millions and continues to do so as the founder and head cheese of DEI, the countries number one maker of car alarms and such. Guess what I manufacture and import? I am miniscule compared to him. But I'm here and I'm growing. Or at least I was. I don't think Mr. Issa, who is a great person and Rep BTW, would be the best person to plead my case with. He certainly wouldn't be the person to threaten with job losses and he wouldn't be the one I would lay my alternative business plan out to.

I have few secrets, but I'm not going to go over and lay it out for him either.

Jim

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I have read through this whole thread, and you are yet another K-3 filer for whom I have the deepest sympathy. I don't know if the site would be willing to pin it, and hindsight is always 20/20, but it just seems to me, from everything I have witnessed since joining VisaJourney, is that the LAST THING ANYONE SHOULD EVER DO is to FILE FOR K-3 AFTER MARRIAGE IF THEY ARE SERIOUSLY WANTING TO GET THEIR SO HERE. Unfortunately after getting married, that becomes the only choice, but it most definitely appears that the wait time for K-3 is outrageous, unfair, and beyond comprehension.

It is wrong. It is not fair, and all of you anger is completely and totally understandable. I am not sure my solution would be to move to China, but I do know that were it not for my children, and the success of our fiancé visa, I would have given serious thought to moving to J even if it meant moving to the United Arab Emirates (I enjoyed my stay, had a very hard time leaving, but to live there? I don't know.)

So good luck to you and your wife, what ever way you choose to go. And I am sorry about what has happened to you.

[MichelleandCraig 1]

Miss you around here, Andy. I didn't know you well, but when I first joined I used to see your posts a lot and they were great. Hope all is wonderful with you and yours, and good luck with whatever you decide Jim. M.

[Donna A 4]

why did u chose the cr1/ir1 route if u wanted her so fast. that is the longest way to go. she could have already been here if u went the k-3 way. that was stupid on ur part so dont blame our govt for the delay.

Edited March 4, 2007 by donnaal

[JimandSarha 0]

why did u chose the cr1/ir1 route if u wanted her so fast. that is the longest way to go. she could have already been here if u went the k-3 way. that was stupid on ur part so dont blame our govt for the delay.

I have an approved I-129F form in that is running concurrently and at least 3 months behind the CR-1. But thank you for your concern.

And of course, it is logical to say that because there is one "faster" method, then of course the government shouldn't do anything at all to speed up the slow process.

If the HOV lane is moving along at 70mph but the other 3 lanes are consistently bumper to bumper, should we not gripe about the lack of speed in the main lanes?

CR-1 = GUZ2006701116 <== at NVC

129F = MSC-06-300-24800 <== terminally circling the toilet bowl at CSC

Go look them up. Feel free to explain my government to me anytime friend.

Jim

Edited March 4, 2007 by JimandSarha

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Back to the OP... It might not be a bad idea to have a forum for people moving from the US to other countries. It certainly does happen and if there is enough interest I might create a forum. Any idea on how much interest there is?

[Andy 2]

why did u chose the cr1/ir1 route if u wanted her so fast. that is the longest way to go. she could have already been here if u went the k-3 way. that was stupid on ur part so dont blame our govt for the delay.

Actually that isn't at all true. Firstly, in China it makes little difference which of the two routes the case is progressed through because in either event it doesn't progress. Part of the problem lies in the fact that of all the countries through which immigrant visas are processed (and the K-3 is processed through immigrant visa sections) China has a series of special procedures which mean that cases there do not get handled in the same way and same sequence as for any other country, and once the case hits the NVC, delays and problematic clearances and paperwork invariably begin to arise, and the special handling means that while in almost every other instance a case can be managed in the processing stream as a whole, Chinese cases have to be handled in each stage manually.

Secondly, China suffers from three factors which hinder the processing of a case governed by rules which are as black and white in their simplicity as those created by the US government for immigration cases, to whit; It has a massively large population, which makes searching records very problematic and time consuming; It has a poor public records system, which makes it hard to be sure when records turn up a hit it's a genuine one and when they don't it's because there's nothing to find rather than no accurate record to reflect it; Names are common, often misspelled, frequently not consistently spelt and in many cases shared amongst a large number of people. Since the rigorous application of background checks following 9/11 and the simplistic approach to undertaking them it's meant that cases through China have become very difficult. When you consider that an average case might throw up a thousand 'hits', each one of which had to be checked and cleared manually, amongst a massive volume of active applications in amongst special rules and non-standard clearance, approval and processing regulations in a chaotic and bureaucratic, 'unfriendly', state and it's a wonder any case concludes successfully at all!

None of these things are the petitioner or beneficiary's fault. People fall victim in this system because the system is inflexible and incapable of adjusting to circumstance.

[Andy 2]

Miss you around here, Andy. I didn't know you well, but when I first joined I used to see your posts a lot and they were great. Hope all is wonderful with you and yours, and good luck with whatever you decide Jim. M.

Thank you, that's kind. There was a time when my presence here was helpful in at least helping explain the inside working of the process so people could understand it better and perhaps use that knowledge to help them through the whole thing a little more comfortably. But in more recent times there are plenty of others who have been through the system and are able to share their insights and experiences, so it doesn't seem all that useful to hang around so much anymore. Explaining why the USCIS does something a particular way, or giving insights into their case processing methods no longer seems helpful to the majority of members using the site.

I'm still active in immigration casework for a number of organisations though, and typically these days get the ones that are all tangled and twisted due to problems! My fault for seeming to like those! Thankfully to my own immigration case is well behind me and my wife has always served as ample evidence that it's well worth putting up with the rigors of the US immigration system because the rewards are delightful indeed!

I hope all is well with you, and that you have discovered the same!!