Va. lawmakers apologize for slavery

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I thought the North giving up slavery had more to do with the 'war' - as a way of provoking uprisings in the south and disrupting their economy.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You should have studied the otterman era..

Ottomon, as in the sofa; or man-otters?

Sorry I couldn't resist

[Heracles 417]

You should have studied the otterman era..

Ottomon, as in the sofa; or man-otters?

Sorry I couldn't resist

Yes, Ottomon empire / era..

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I guess one thing to consider here is that the descendants of most ordinary criminals don’t benefit from the crimes of their ancestors. Clearly slavery and colonialism etc were not ordinary crimes (but crimes just the same), so the question has to be whether or not we continue to benefit from the legacy – of a collective crime against a particular group or groups. If so, then we are clearly liable, IMO, to a degree of reparation or restitution.

Therefore, the white society which benefited from slavery is indeed responsible (via taxation, for example) to help those who are still suffering from its long lasting consequences (do we really need to open up that can of worms to point out the clear disparities?). One good (simple) example of this is that the German people are still collectively paying reparations or otherwise making restitution to Jewish people.

While I agree that we don’t need to beat our breasts about what our ancestors did, because of course, we are not them – it seems clear to me that much of the wealth which allowed Britain and America (in particular) to get the edge they maintained as super-wealthy societies, was based on slavery and, of course, colonialism. That was surely the principle on which the Attlee government set aside such a huge part of the national budget towards helping India to independence. Some would argue that Britain has still not helped former colonies enough, but that is the debate, not whether Britain should help at all. Of course, in such complex issues, there are many arguments and differences - offsetting in some cases how much wealth the colonial power took from the country and how much stability, in the number of working institutions it left in place. I think the British in the end did help India develop into a powerful modern democracy, but I don't know whether Indians would agree that this happened because of British colonialism or in spite of it...

[Fandango 1,439]

I guess one thing to consider here is that the descendants of most ordinary criminals don’t benefit from the crimes of their ancestors. Clearly slavery and colonialism etc were not ordinary crimes (but crimes just the same), so the question has to be whether or not we continue to benefit from the legacy – of a collective crime against a particular group or groups. If so, then we are clearly liable, IMO, to a degree of reparation or restitution.

Therefore, the white society which benefited from slavery is indeed responsible (via taxation, for example) to help those who are still suffering from its long lasting consequences (do we really need to open up that can of worms to point out the clear disparities?). One good (simple) example of this is that the German people are still collectively paying reparations or otherwise making restitution to Jewish people.

While I agree that we don’t need to beat our breasts about what our ancestors did, because of course, we are not them – it seems clear to me that much of the wealth which allowed Britain and America (in particular) to get the edge they maintained as super-wealthy societies, was based on slavery and, of course, colonialism. That was surely the principle on which the Attlee government set aside such a huge part of the national budget towards helping India to independence. Some would argue that Britain has still not helped former colonies enough, but that is the debate, not whether Britain should help at all. Of course, in such complex issues, there are many arguments and differences - offsetting in some cases how much wealth the colonial power took from the country and how much stability, in the number of working institutions it left in place. I think the British in the end did help India develop into a powerful modern democracy, but I don't know whether Indians would agree that this happened because of British colonialism or in spite of it...

Please expound on the bit in red.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It goes back to the idea that much of what are considered race issues here are really about ‘class society’ and the complex economics that pertain to that. In fact, most of the so-called ‘reverse discrimination’ policies are derived from that - are they not?

[Fandango 1,439]

It goes back to the idea that much of what are considered race issues here are really about ‘class society’ and the complex economics that pertain to that. In fact, most of the so-called ‘reverse discrimination’ policies are derived from that - are they not?

1 - no such thing as 'reverse' racism/discrimination...it's racism and discrimination, plain and simple

2 - you didn't fulfill my request for more explanation of your views on white society today being responsible via taxation for example. Please focus on that.

Edited February 26, 2007 by LisaD

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It goes back to the idea that much of what are considered race issues here are really about ‘class society’ and the complex economics that pertain to that. In fact, most of the so-called ‘reverse discrimination’ policies are derived from that - are they not?

1 - no such thing as 'reverse' racism/discrimination...it's racism and discrimination, plain and simple

2 - you didn't fulfill my request for more explanation of your views on white society today being responsible via taxation for example. Please focus on that.

Well you're playing with semantics in '1' - but yes discrimination is discrimination, whatever you choose to call it. I guess it comes down to common 'fairness' - and whether or not you assume equal treatment equates to an 'equal' society. We've had this discussion before.

As far as taxation goes, I think we should channel money into regenerating deprived urban areas (which tend to home to....?), That's what I was getting at.

Similarly I believe that private companies which profitted directly from that repression (and yes - there are some still around), should have to make some sort of restitution - seeing as their business was built on the back of exploited peoples.

[Fandango 1,439]

It goes back to the idea that much of what are considered race issues here are really about ‘class society’ and the complex economics that pertain to that. In fact, most of the so-called ‘reverse discrimination’ policies are derived from that - are they not?

1 - no such thing as 'reverse' racism/discrimination...it's racism and discrimination, plain and simple

2 - you didn't fulfill my request for more explanation of your views on white society today being responsible via taxation for example. Please focus on that.

Well you're playing with semantics in '1' - but yes discrimination is discrimination, whatever you choose to call it. I guess it comes down to common 'fairness' - and whether or not you assume equal treatment equates to an 'equal' society. We've had this discussion before.

As far as taxation goes, I think we should channel money into regenerating deprived urban areas (which tend to home to....?), That's what I was getting at.

Similarly I believe that private companies which profitted directly from that repression (and yes - there are some still around), should have to make some sort of restitution - seeing as their business was built on the back of exploited peoples.

1 - it's far from semantical. It's a very important distinction that racism can and does happen to all walks of like...and sometimes that includes white people. There's no fancy new term, it's just racism. No need to dress it up.

Not to mention racism against whites being called 'reverse racism' implies that racism is only possible when it's a white person hatin on someone else...because why else would it be called 'reverse'

2 - I'm still primarily interested in what you meant by this

I guess one thing to consider here is that the descendants of most ordinary criminals don’t

Therefore, the white society which benefited from slavery is indeed responsible (via taxation, for example) to help those who are still suffering from its long lasting consequences

Sounded to me that you were proposing that 'white society' be taxed as a manner of reparation. Well, that is what you said, but whatever.

Which I find preposterous, btw.

As if Affirmative action, minority grants, minority scholarships, quotas, et al aren't bad enough as it is (I feel they are racist in nature, but we've been here before) Those who scream the loudest about the state of racial differences are the ones who are perpetrating the divide. All men created equal. Not all men but so and so gets special treatment. ALL MEN EQUAL. Not 'hey we'll give you xzy for being black and we're gonna tax you for being white cos somehow you benefitted from what happened over 150 years ago even though your family hadn't even emigrated here yet'

Yes, euquality is an issue in the past this country has struggled with. As it's struggles with the gender differences. But this is 2007 not 1907 and there's a process called evolution. And each generation before us paves the way and makes things that much easier for the ones to follow. Now you may assume all the guilt you want...in fact, if you are a white man, I don't see how you can sit in your house enjoying the spoils of what you see as fruits from a poisoned tree. Go out and make personal reparations for your tainted legacy!

See, you own your white liberal guilt....I regect it and see a world where all races and both genders have made such strides and the whole world is rip for the picking. That we live in a country where you can pull yourself up by your boot straps and go from poor to wealthy. Only with hard work and dedication. But it's there for the picking if you want it bad enough.

Life is what you make it and clearly we have different ideas

But you're free to yours and I'm free to mine, so it's all good!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The assumption of course is that we live in an equal society. The US isn't the only country to have this problem - if you look outside the country I mentioned the Australian aborigines, the Maoris, low caste indians in India - what are the commonalities here? Poverty, crime, lower life expectancy, poorer general standards education. It's a universal problem - that is again tied up with social class and economics than it is purely about race (issues which are too complex to be separated these days).

That's not say of course that those people shouldn't 'move on' as it were - the question is whether we're prepared to admit that many people are still paying the price today for crimes committed a hundred or more years ago.

Edited February 26, 2007 by erekose

[Fandango 1,439]

It goes back to the idea that much of what are considered race issues here are really about ‘class society’ and the complex economics that pertain to that. In fact, most of the so-called ‘reverse discrimination’ policies are derived from that - are they not?

1 - no such thing as 'reverse' racism/discrimination...it's racism and discrimination, plain and simple

2 - you didn't fulfill my request for more explanation of your views on white society today being responsible via taxation for example. Please focus on that.

Well you're playing with semantics in '1' - but yes discrimination is discrimination, whatever you choose to call it. I guess it comes down to common 'fairness' - and whether or not you assume equal treatment equates to an 'equal' society. We've had this discussion before.

As far as taxation goes, I think we should channel money into regenerating deprived urban areas (which tend to home to....?), That's what I was getting at.

Similarly I believe that private companies which profitted directly from that repression (and yes - there are some still around), should have to make some sort of restitution - seeing as their business was built on the back of exploited peoples.

1 - it's far from semantical. It's a very important distinction that racism can and does happen to all walks of like...and sometimes that includes white people. There's no fancy new term, it's just racism. No need to dress it up.

Not to mention racism against whites being called 'reverse racism' implies that racism is only possible when it's a white person hatin on someone else...because why else would it be called 'reverse'

2 - I'm still primarily interested in what you meant by this

I guess one thing to consider here is that the descendants of most ordinary criminals don’t

Therefore, the white society which benefited from slavery is indeed responsible (via taxation, for example) to help those who are still suffering from its long lasting consequences

Sounded to me that you were proposing that 'white society' be taxed as a manner of reparation. Well, that is what you said, but whatever.

Which I find preposterous, btw.

As if Affirmative action, minority grants, minority scholarships, quotas, et al aren't bad enough as it is (I feel they are racist in nature, but we've been here before) Those who scream the loudest about the state of racial differences are the ones who are perpetrating the divide. All men created equal. Not all men but so and so gets special treatment. ALL MEN EQUAL. Not 'hey we'll give you xzy for being black and we're gonna tax you for being white cos somehow you benefitted from what happened over 150 years ago even though your family hadn't even emigrated here yet'

Yes, euquality is an issue in the past this country has struggled with. As it's struggles with the gender differences. But this is 2007 not 1907 and there's a process called evolution. And each generation before us paves the way and makes things that much easier for the ones to follow. Now you may assume all the guilt you want...in fact, if you are a white man, I don't see how you can sit in your house enjoying the spoils of what you see as fruits from a poisoned tree. Go out and make personal reparations for your tainted legacy!

See, you own your white liberal guilt....I reject it and see a world where all races and both genders have made such strides and the whole world is rip for the picking. That we live in a country where you can pull yourself up by your boot straps and go from poor to wealthy. Only with hard work and dedication. But it's there for the picking if you want it bad enough.

Life is what you make it and clearly we have different ideas

But you're free to yours and I'm free to mine, so it's all good!

my dumbest typo ever, lol...corrected now, of course.

Edited February 26, 2007 by LisaD

[Heracles 417]

I guess one thing to consider here is that the descendants of most ordinary criminals don’t benefit from the crimes of their ancestors. Clearly slavery and colonialism etc were not ordinary crimes (but crimes just the same), so the question has to be whether or not we continue to benefit from the legacy – of a collective crime against a particular group or groups. If so, then we are clearly liable, IMO, to a degree of reparation or restitution.

I did not seem to receive any response to these questions..

How do you feel about certain African-American groups now using slavery against Caucasians and basically blackmailing them by saying, "we want x otherwise we will damage your reputation, by branding you a racist"? Is this justified on the basis that their great great great grandparents where slaves? I am not saying everyone or every African-American group out there is doing this but nonetheless it is happening..

Hypocritically, it now seems okay for them to profit from the history of slavery, while accusing Caucasians of profiteering from slavery.

Two wrongs do not make something right..

[Mirorgate 0]

Had a friend who actually went on the Crusade path with other christians years ago.. stopping at villages, places of point et al.. apologizing for what was done before in the name of religion. actually a lot of ppl still living in the area appreciated it as the gesture it was. It may/may not directly effect you or be a cause of you... but it can still help heal wounds that linger for quite some tome.

As an aside... the idea of "race" is total BS to posture oneself above and others below to make themselves feel good of their situation.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I guess one thing to consider here is that the descendants of most ordinary criminals don’t benefit from the crimes of their ancestors. Clearly slavery and colonialism etc were not ordinary crimes (but crimes just the same), so the question has to be whether or not we continue to benefit from the legacy – of a collective crime against a particular group or groups. If so, then we are clearly liable, IMO, to a degree of reparation or restitution.

I did not seem to receive any response to these questions..

How do you feel about certain African-American groups now using slavery against Caucasians and basically blackmailing them by saying, "we want x otherwise we will damage your reputation, by branding you a racist"? Is this justified on the basis that their great great great grandparents where slaves? I am not saying everyone or every African-American group out there is doing this but nonetheless it is happening..

I think at some point blacks have to 'move on' from blaming whites for their problems - indeed there is a movement among certain groups to do just that. But obviously we're dealing with ingrained attitudes on both sides of the fence.

Still when it comes down to it, the assertion that we live in an equal society is simply romantic nonsense, and as I said - you need to look further afield than the US to see that. Look at any nation in which a minority group was repressed (like the aborigines for example) - you will find the same pattern. High levels of poverty, high preponderance towards crime and various other social problems. Its a universal problem - and ultimately its only superficially about 'race'.

Edited February 27, 2007 by erekose

[Sheriff Uling 3]

Can someone please inform the Va lawmakers that I want my own personlize apology on official letterhead? LOL!